Granpa's sentiments were as far as I am concerned are bang on. RM always has been an asset to CAFC and will I am sure continue to be. Has made mistakes but who hasnt deserves our thanks for all he has done not the sniping from some on here.
Whether or not RM has a role at this club is a moot point for me in that as far as I am concerned without long years of hard work and a LOT of money on his part, there would not be a Charlton Athletic FC right now - they are near enough synonymous. He's stuck with it in the thinnest of thin times and lost more than any of us in the process. Have there been mistakes made? Of course. But if you think back to those glory years in the Premiership, continued success and a reputation for how a club should be run? That's Richard Murray's legacy to this great football club.
Now, more than at any other time since we left the premier league, CAFC needs Murray on the board. We are going through the second big transition on and off the pitch in three years. New management team (Joyes and Kensell to stay), 15 (?) professionals leaving the club this summer and finally some capex available for the pitch and any other sensible proposals... Unless Duchatelet can be persuaded to sell some equity to a fans group then Murray is the only chance of a link to the top. If we want to rely on leaks and rumours then let us burn all bridges to the board. But for me the only thing lacking is a clear vision statement from Murray and Duchatelet to act as a backdrop to all the changes. Murray has now overseen two transfers of ownership. The first to avoid his own bankruptcy and or CAFC falling over - and that left us with promotion back to the championship and the longest serving manager in the division. The second transfer was to a man who has solutions and experience but will not throw money at the problems. The manager went but we survived and live to fight another season in the Championship. What's not to like?
The only place Richard Murray, with 10 per cent of the shares, oversaw the transfer to RD is in your imagination, which is evidently even more vivid than his.
Murray together with Martin Simons and Roger Alwen did a great job in getting us back to The Valley and then into the Premier league. When I was a kid in the 70's getting into the top league was a distant dream. His position may be untenable in the fact that he now little to do, but that's for RM to decide for himself. He cannot be blamed for sanctioning the takeover by RD. I am not keen on some of Duchatelet's methods but he needs to be given time to prove himself. Slater and Jiminez were doing nothing and Charlton were going in one direction, back to League One earlier this year. I think Murray has always had Charlton at his heart and has been good with the fans, as someone wrote earlier in this thread. Unfortunately, it all went wrong for RM and Charlton when he appointed Iain Dowie, but we all make mistakes. Had he got that appointment right he might still be the owner now.
Turned his back on those who stood side by side with him
Some who in one case were willing to stand beside and behind him toe to toe
Where I come from that means something
To then turn on those same people and treat them with contempt and disdain is something unforgivable forget mistakes that wasn't a mistake everyone makes them
A man who hasn't made mistakes has made nothing in his life, grandpa.is correct 100%
But the above decision wasn't a mistake it was the colours of the man coming through
Some real good cafc people were amongst those who become just collateral damage
I find it rather amusing that the questions are being asked of his tenure and the way he has under the two amigos stood silently by and watched more fall
Unfortunately, it all went wrong for RM and Charlton when he appointed Iain Dowie, but we all make mistakes. Had he got that appointment right he might still be the owner now.
As bad a discussion that was, the sacking of Dowie and then appointing Reed was far worse.
I started this thread off in March and I have seen nothing from Mr Murray since that suggests he has a valid reason for clinging on to his role at the Club. I would respect him far more if he were to resign - but that seems unlikely.
Now, more than at any other time since we left the premier league, CAFC needs Murray on the board. We are going through the second big transition on and off the pitch in three years. New management team (Joyes and Kensell to stay), 15 (?) professionals leaving the club this summer and finally some capex available for the pitch and any other sensible proposals... Unless Duchatelet can be persuaded to sell some equity to a fans group then Murray is the only chance of a link to the top. If we want to rely on leaks and rumours then let us burn all bridges to the board. But for me the only thing lacking is a clear vision statement from Murray and Duchatelet to act as a backdrop to all the changes. Murray has now overseen two transfers of ownership. The first to avoid his own bankruptcy and or CAFC falling over - and that left us with promotion back to the championship and the longest serving manager in the division. The second transfer was to a man who has solutions and experience but will not throw money at the problems. The manager went but we survived and live to fight another season in the Championship. What's not to like?
The only place Richard Murray, with 10 per cent of the shares, oversaw the transfer to RD is in your imagination, which is evidently even more vivid than his.
How's that G21 and season ticket strike working out for you? Contrary to your glib response the deferred creditors (and bank) with debts of c.£10m have considerable powers of veto over changes in share ownership and capital structure. Therefore during the two equity transfers I would imagine there would be the need for relationship management - a role which often falls to the chair. You probably think selling a football club losing £7m a year is a walk in the park but I'm not so sure. I think they made it simpler by reducing losses down to £4m but that's the bit you don't understand... You know the bit where the overall financial health of the club is more important than any one player or manager.
Now, more than at any other time since we left the premier league, CAFC needs Murray on the board. We are going through the second big transition on and off the pitch in three years. New management team (Joyes and Kensell to stay), 15 (?) professionals leaving the club this summer and finally some capex available for the pitch and any other sensible proposals... Unless Duchatelet can be persuaded to sell some equity to a fans group then Murray is the only chance of a link to the top. If we want to rely on leaks and rumours then let us burn all bridges to the board. But for me the only thing lacking is a clear vision statement from Murray and Duchatelet to act as a backdrop to all the changes. Murray has now overseen two transfers of ownership. The first to avoid his own bankruptcy and or CAFC falling over - and that left us with promotion back to the championship and the longest serving manager in the division. The second transfer was to a man who has solutions and experience but will not throw money at the problems. The manager went but we survived and live to fight another season in the Championship. What's not to like?
The only place Richard Murray, with 10 per cent of the shares, oversaw the transfer to RD is in your imagination, which is evidently even more vivid than his.
How's that G21 and season ticket strike working out for you? Contrary to your glib response the deferred creditors (and bank) with debts of c.£10m have considerable powers of veto over changes in share ownership and capital structure. Therefore during the two equity transfers I would imagine there would be the need for relationship management - a role which often falls to the chair. You probably think selling a football club losing £7m a year is a walk in the park but I'm not so sure. I think they made it simpler by reducing losses down to £4m but that's the bit you don't understand... You know the bit where the overall financial health of the club is more important than any one player or manager.
If you remember, Richard Murray was claiming earlier this year - including at the VIP meeting, March 6th and reported on that thread - that he played no active part in the TJ/MS takeover and that was all the money-grabbing Peter Varney's fault. At that stage he had 100 per cent of the shares and was chairman. Now you're telling us that he "oversaw" both this and the arrival of RD, despite being down to 10 per cent and not being chairman in the latter case, even though it "often falls to the chair". Which is it?
Your problem is that you rely solely on what Richard tells you and let's just say that his memory is not as reliable as it was.
I think that sometimes we forget how immensely hard it must have been for RM to hand over the reins. It would have been difficult enough had it just been a conscious decision, but it must be particularly hard when you have to recognise that it is your own mistakes which have forced an unwanted situation upon you. It was surely difficult to maintain dignity and credibility so I can understand if he played to the audience. Nevertheless, somewhere along that unforgiving path, he sold his soul and he, and we, have to live with that.
I have never spoken with Richard Murray or with any of the protagonists in the drama which has unfolded over the last few years. I do sense, however, that some of the comments made about the Club's Chairman are somewhat harsh. I'd make the following observations;
1. Had Murray not found a buyer before the end of the 2010/11 season the Club would have been in big trouble. I'm not talking about administration, but a fate far worse. We faced the possibility of a downwards spiral which might, ultimately, have led to liquidation. I am not exaggerating. It was essential to find an owner who could and would fund the Club's losses.
2. We would not have won promotion to the Championship in 2011/12 without an owner willing and able to fund the losses the Club sustained that season. From memory, the Owners injected £7m into the Club during that year, i.e. their money, in cash.
3. The following season, the first in the Championship, conventional wisdom has it that the Owners did not support Manager Chris Powell. The accounts tell us that the wage bill increased by around one third compared to the previous season, which followed a similar increase the year before. The Owners injected a further £8.5m into the Club, i.e. their money, in cash. That looks like "support" to me.
4. Last summer, with money apparently running out, the Owners decided to cut the wage bill, largely, though not entirely, by offloading players who had not made the grade. They also, it seems, intensified their efforts to find a buyer. Despite frequent rumours of deals about to be done it appears that this proved to be a very difficult process. Perhaps that's not surprising? There aren't many people who can afford to spend £5-10m p.a. for the privilege of being slagged off every week and even fewer who are willing to do it.
5. The previous Owner's strategy worked. They funded a squad good enough to survive in the Championship and managed to pass on the Baton. We know the squad left by the previous Owners was good enough because we'll be playing in the Championship again next season, despite the sales of two of our best players after the transfer of ownership.
6. We now have a new Owner with money, ambition and a plan. Not only are we still in the Championship, but we have a thriving academy with, we are led to believe, an exciting pipeline of talent. The previous Owners chose to continue to invest in the Academy and the new Owner intends to build on their success. We don't know how Duchatelet's strategy will work or how effective the execution will be, but we do know that the Club is in much better shape than when Richard Murray sold it in January 2011. Where we might have been had he not sold it doesn't really bear thinking about. Others might disagree with this assessment and that's their prerogative, of course.
7. It was always clear that Tony Jimenez and Michael Slater were not what we might describe as God-fearing Christians and it may well be that they were at times brutal and uncaring, though naturally I, personally, have no direct evidence of that. Similarly, Roland Duchatelet may be unconventional and controversial at times, but Richard Murray may well, nevertheless, believe that the Club has moved forward over the last three and a half years and that it is now well placed to consolidate and then develop further.
Many of the employees at the Club three and a half years ago have now moved on and this is regrettable, especially if it was not handled well, but from my perspective, as an "outsider", I feel that Richard Murray is entitled to believe that he has helped sustain and progress the Club. It would be nice to hear a bit more from him, but it really isn't clear to me that he has anything to be ashamed off. Perhaps my perspective both suffers and benefits from not having access to "inside information".
In 2008 he refused, point blank, to sell everything he had to Zabeel. He wanted to remain a part and they didn't want that. His decision then cost us. His place in Charlton history is there but it could have been so much more.
In 2008 he refused, point blank, to sell everything he had to Zabeel. He wanted to remain a part and they didn't want that. His decision then cost us. His place in Charlton history is there but it could have been so much more.
In 2008 he refused, point blank, to sell everything he had to Zabeel. He wanted to remain a part and they didn't want that. His decision then cost us. His place in Charlton history is there but it could have been so much more.
In 2008 he refused, point blank, to sell everything he had to Zabeel. He wanted to remain a part and they didn't want that. His decision then cost us. His place in Charlton history is there but it could have been so much more.
Weird and wrong
Which part?
A deal had been agreed, but Zabeel withdrew. Long story, but essentially global financial crisis related. Zabeel then went bust.
In 2008 he refused, point blank, to sell everything he had to Zabeel. He wanted to remain a part and they didn't want that. His decision then cost us. His place in Charlton history is there but it could have been so much more.
Weird and wrong
Which part?
A deal had been agreed, but Zabeel withdrew. Long story, but essentially global financial crisis related. Zabeel then went bust.
In 2008 he refused, point blank, to sell everything he had to Zabeel. He wanted to remain a part and they didn't want that. His decision then cost us. His place in Charlton history is there but it could have been so much more.
Weird and wrong
Which part?
A deal had been agreed, but Zabeel withdrew. Long story, but essentially global financial crisis related. Zabeel then went bust.
Wrong.
Happy to admit it if I am. Perhaps you can explain.
In 2008 he refused, point blank, to sell everything he had to Zabeel. He wanted to remain a part and they didn't want that. His decision then cost us. His place in Charlton history is there but it could have been so much more.
Weird and wrong
Which part?
A deal had been agreed, but Zabeel withdrew. Long story, but essentially global financial crisis related. Zabeel then went bust.
Zabeel did not go bust. Zabeel is still cash rich (dept poor though).
I find it hard to believe that Richard Murray played "no active part in the Jiminez Slater takeover". And frankly I find it incredible that anyone would look to push that myth. He owned 100% of the equity ffs. I know that Peter Varney had a role in setting up the transaction but I don't know what the precise role was. Pre sale RM rounded up all of the equity, ex directors and fans alike, so as to facilitate a transfer in ownership - I understand that according to his advisors that was the best way to attract buyers. He then did not pursue a sale price but gave away 90% of the equity for a tenner simply because there wasn't a queue of buyers and, as Mundell puts it so eloquently, the club was out of cash and Murrays appetite/ ability to keep funding the club was fast running out. Three years on and my understanding of the rumours is that Jiminez and Slater managed to exit with some losses on their loans perhaps 25%-30%? They sold the club for £14M including the "survival bonus" but that would be considerably less than they injected over the three years. Not only did they bring in a new squad and football management team but they also left the new owner with the opportunity to do the same. But with a much better P&L and a core of young decent players on 3 year deals. Unlike Mundell, I have met Richard Murray during my time on the Trust (thanks to an introduction from Prague Addick). During that 18 month period I also met a number of ex directors including Peter Varney. I spell that out for two reasons - my sourcing of information goes way beyond Richard Murray. More importantly, along with the vast majority of fans, I believe that the supporters Trust should engage with the club. It was therefore a clear part the Trust's strategy to host Richard in the City last February. Anyone who believes that the way to enhance the fans relationship with the club and also enhance the club's prospects is to stand on the outside of the tent pissing in is deluding themselves. As I have posted before, I drink Leffe not bitter!
I had thought the entity within the Zabeel empire which had bid for Charlton had ceased trading and clearly recall that the relevant website, setting out the business's vision etc., ceased to be updated. I could easily be wrong about this though because it's not easy to penetrate the holdings structure. You may well be right, therefore.
However, I still believe the first two sentences of my post to be correct, not least since during the autumn of 2008 Dubai, with serious concerns over its indebtedness, temporarily, became dependent on its big brother, Abu Dhabi, for liquidity support and, from a political perspective, needed the high profile purchase of a football Club in England like it needed a hole in the head. This interpretation is supported by subsequent events. When Zabeel pulled out of the deal to buy Charlton there was much ill-informed speculation that they'd buy another Club with Liverpool amongst those mentioned. No such acquisition took place.
I see a couple of "lol" from @Henry Irving - You were on the board as the fans director during the time that CAFC crashed down through the divisions. That must have been a stressful time. From the outside the decision making and finances look a lot more sober these days - would you concur?
Out of interest when was Colin Powell's final Charlton appearance? When did RM become a Charlton fan?
Colin Powell left for Gillingham in 1981 I think following our promotion back to division 2 under Mike Bailey
Richard Murray became a Charlton fan sometime during our tenure at Selhurst apparently so he may not have seen Colin play live.
Yes, a number of us picked that up and shared our amazement at that remark privately, but I thought I'd leave it be given the thread was about paying deserved tribute to Paddy. In fairness, the quote may have been made up by the comms team. Or not.
I find it hard to believe that Richard Murray played "no active part in the Jiminez Slater takeover". And frankly I find it incredible that anyone would look to push that myth. He owned 100% of the equity ffs. I know that Peter Varney had a role in setting up the transaction but I don't know what the precise role was. Pre sale RM rounded up all of the equity, ex directors and fans alike, so as to facilitate a transfer in ownership - I understand that according to his advisors that was the best way to attract buyers. He then did not pursue a sale price but gave away 90% of the equity for a tenner simply because there wasn't a queue of buyers and, as Mundell puts it so eloquently, the club was out of cash and Murrays appetite/ ability to keep funding the club was fast running out. Three years on and my understanding of the rumours is that Jiminez and Slater managed to exit with some losses on their loans perhaps 25%-30%? They sold the club for £14M including the "survival bonus" but that would be considerably less than they injected over the three years. Not only did they bring in a new squad and football management team but they also left the new owner with the opportunity to do the same. But with a much better P&L and a core of young decent players on 3 year deals. Unlike Mundell, I have met Richard Murray during my time on the Trust (thanks to an introduction from Prague Addick). During that 18 month period I also met a number of ex directors including Peter Varney. I spell that out for two reasons - my sourcing of information goes way beyond Richard Murray. More importantly, along with the vast majority of fans, I believe that the supporters Trust should engage with the club. It was therefore a clear part the Trust's strategy to host Richard in the City last February. Anyone who believes that the way to enhance the fans relationship with the club and also enhance the club's prospects is to stand on the outside of the tent pissing in is deluding themselves. As I have posted before, I drink Leffe not bitter!
You miss the point that it was Richard Murray claiming he wasn't responsible for the 2010 takeover, not me. That's the problem with your assertion that he oversaw it. He said not - go back and read the VIP meeting thread.
I agree with a lot of the positive things said about RM and he wasn't to blame or responsible for anyone leaving the club, but understand that on that weekend in July 2012 when Varney quit the board he was ready to go too because he knew then what he was dealing with in Jimenez and Slater. Instead, he changed sides, collaborated as a director in the attack on Varney and Kavanagh - which goes beyond what is in the public domain - and has been trying to rewrite history ever since to justify himself. That's the problem.
Out of interest when was Colin Powell's final Charlton appearance? When did RM become a Charlton fan?
Colin Powell left for Gillingham in 1981 I think following our promotion back to division 2 under Mike Bailey
Richard Murray became a Charlton fan sometime during our tenure at Selhurst apparently so he may not have seen Colin play live.
Yes, a number of us picked that up and shared our amazement at that remark privately, but I thought I'd leave it be given the thread was about paying deserved tribute to Paddy. In fairness, the quote may have been made up by the comms team. Or not.
Richard Murray said that he fondly remembered Paddy's playing days or something very similar. Would the Comms team have made that up? I'd doubt it. We can discuss it here surely as it isn't the Paddy appreciation thread. As soon as I read the story it jumped out at me and I thought 'yeah right'.
Out of interest when was Colin Powell's final Charlton appearance? When did RM become a Charlton fan?
Colin Powell left for Gillingham in 1981 I think following our promotion back to division 2 under Mike Bailey
Richard Murray became a Charlton fan sometime during our tenure at Selhurst apparently so he may not have seen Colin play live.
Yes, a number of us picked that up and shared our amazement at that remark privately, but I thought I'd leave it be given the thread was about paying deserved tribute to Paddy. In fairness, the quote may have been made up by the comms team. Or not.
Richard Murray said that he fondly remembered Paddy's playing days or something very similar. Would the Comms team have made that up? I'd doubt it. We can discuss it here surely as it isn't the Paddy appreciation thread. As soon as I read the story it jumped out at me and I thought 'yeah right'.
Comments
Some who in one case were willing to stand beside and behind him toe to toe
Where I come from that means something
To then turn on those same people and treat them with contempt and disdain is something unforgivable forget mistakes that wasn't a mistake everyone makes them
A man who hasn't made mistakes has made nothing in his life, grandpa.is correct 100%
But the above decision wasn't a mistake it was the colours of the man coming through
Some real good cafc people were amongst those who become just collateral damage
I find it rather amusing that the questions are being asked of his tenure and the way he has under the two amigos stood silently by and watched more fall
Contrary to your glib response the deferred creditors (and bank) with debts of c.£10m have considerable powers of veto over changes in share ownership and capital structure. Therefore during the two equity transfers I would imagine there would be the need for relationship management - a role which often falls to the chair.
You probably think selling a football club losing £7m a year is a walk in the park but I'm not so sure. I think they made it simpler by reducing losses down to £4m but that's the bit you don't understand... You know the bit where the overall financial health of the club is more important than any one player or manager.
Your problem is that you rely solely on what Richard tells you and let's just say that his memory is not as reliable as it was.
Nevertheless, somewhere along that unforgiving path, he sold his soul and he, and we, have to live with that.
1. Had Murray not found a buyer before the end of the 2010/11 season the Club would have been in big trouble. I'm not talking about administration, but a fate far worse. We faced the possibility of a downwards spiral which might, ultimately, have led to liquidation. I am not exaggerating. It was essential to find an owner who could and would fund the Club's losses.
2. We would not have won promotion to the Championship in 2011/12 without an owner willing and able to fund the losses the Club sustained that season. From memory, the Owners injected £7m into the Club during that year, i.e. their money, in cash.
3. The following season, the first in the Championship, conventional wisdom has it that the Owners did not support Manager Chris Powell. The accounts tell us that the wage bill increased by around one third compared to the previous season, which followed a similar increase the year before. The Owners injected a further £8.5m into the Club, i.e. their money, in cash. That looks like "support" to me.
4. Last summer, with money apparently running out, the Owners decided to cut the wage bill, largely, though not entirely, by offloading players who had not made the grade. They also, it seems, intensified their efforts to find a buyer. Despite frequent rumours of deals about to be done it appears that this proved to be a very difficult process. Perhaps that's not surprising? There aren't many people who can afford to spend £5-10m p.a. for the privilege of being slagged off every week and even fewer who are willing to do it.
5. The previous Owner's strategy worked. They funded a squad good enough to survive in the Championship and managed to pass on the Baton. We know the squad left by the previous Owners was good enough because we'll be playing in the Championship again next season, despite the sales of two of our best players after the transfer of ownership.
6. We now have a new Owner with money, ambition and a plan. Not only are we still in the Championship, but we have a thriving academy with, we are led to believe, an exciting pipeline of talent. The previous Owners chose to continue to invest in the Academy and the new Owner intends to build on their success. We don't know how Duchatelet's strategy will work or how effective the execution will be, but we do know that the Club is in much better shape than when Richard Murray sold it in January 2011. Where we might have been had he not sold it doesn't really bear thinking about. Others might disagree with this assessment and that's their prerogative, of course.
7. It was always clear that Tony Jimenez and Michael Slater were not what we might describe as God-fearing Christians and it may well be that they were at times brutal and uncaring, though naturally I, personally, have no direct evidence of that. Similarly, Roland Duchatelet may be unconventional and controversial at times, but Richard Murray may well, nevertheless, believe that the Club has moved forward over the last three and a half years and that it is now well placed to consolidate and then develop further.
Many of the employees at the Club three and a half years ago have now moved on and this is regrettable, especially if it was not handled well, but from my perspective, as an "outsider", I feel that Richard Murray is entitled to believe that he has helped sustain and progress the Club. It would be nice to hear a bit more from him, but it really isn't clear to me that he has anything to be ashamed off. Perhaps my perspective both suffers and benefits from not having access to "inside information".
Pre sale RM rounded up all of the equity, ex directors and fans alike, so as to facilitate a transfer in ownership - I understand that according to his advisors that was the best way to attract buyers. He then did not pursue a sale price but gave away 90% of the equity for a tenner simply because there wasn't a queue of buyers and, as Mundell puts it so eloquently, the club was out of cash and Murrays appetite/ ability to keep funding the club was fast running out.
Three years on and my understanding of the rumours is that Jiminez and Slater managed to exit with some losses on their loans perhaps 25%-30%? They sold the club for £14M including the "survival bonus" but that would be considerably less than they injected over the three years. Not only did they bring in a new squad and football management team but they also left the new owner with the opportunity to do the same. But with a much better P&L and a core of young decent players on 3 year deals.
Unlike Mundell, I have met Richard Murray during my time on the Trust (thanks to an introduction from Prague Addick). During that 18 month period I also met a number of ex directors including Peter Varney. I spell that out for two reasons - my sourcing of information goes way beyond Richard Murray. More importantly, along with the vast majority of fans, I believe that the supporters Trust should engage with the club. It was therefore a clear part the Trust's strategy to host Richard in the City last February. Anyone who believes that the way to enhance the fans relationship with the club and also enhance the club's prospects is to stand on the outside of the tent pissing in is deluding themselves.
As I have posted before, I drink Leffe not bitter!
I had thought the entity within the Zabeel empire which had bid for Charlton had ceased trading and clearly recall that the relevant website, setting out the business's vision etc., ceased to be updated. I could easily be wrong about this though because it's not easy to penetrate the holdings structure. You may well be right, therefore.
However, I still believe the first two sentences of my post to be correct, not least since during the autumn of 2008 Dubai, with serious concerns over its indebtedness, temporarily, became dependent on its big brother, Abu Dhabi, for liquidity support and, from a political perspective, needed the high profile purchase of a football Club in England like it needed a hole in the head. This interpretation is supported by subsequent events. When Zabeel pulled out of the deal to buy Charlton there was much ill-informed speculation that they'd buy another Club with Liverpool amongst those mentioned. No such acquisition took place.
Be interested in your views on this.
Richard Murray became a Charlton fan sometime during our tenure at Selhurst apparently so he may not have seen Colin play live.
I agree with a lot of the positive things said about RM and he wasn't to blame or responsible for anyone leaving the club, but understand that on that weekend in July 2012 when Varney quit the board he was ready to go too because he knew then what he was dealing with in Jimenez and Slater. Instead, he changed sides, collaborated as a director in the attack on Varney and Kavanagh - which goes beyond what is in the public domain - and has been trying to rewrite history ever since to justify himself. That's the problem.