The loaning in of one GK (Thuram) and the sale of another (Alnwick) has intrigued me because so much about these moves is opaque. There are a number of questions I don’t know the answers to: What were RD’s motives? Is Thuram good or bad or what? What do these moves tell us about CP’s position?
The most straightforward of these questions - the second one - should be the one that we will all be able to answer to our own satisfaction once we have seen Thuram perform a few times, but even here I am, at this point, confused. This is what I know.
1 Thuram joined SL last summer. He’s been the number 2 GK there, playing three times before being loaned to us. (As an aside, the number 3 GK also went out on loan in January to another of RD’s clubs (St Truiden). That seems to leave SL very thin on GKs, as the number 2 now is a 20-year-old who, as far as I can see, has not yet played a senior game. Strange move for a team at the top of the league, but that’s another matter.) The reported fee that SL paid in July was £1.5 m, a serious amount of money for a GK. Clearly someone rated him very highly.
2 He’s been in action for us twice, so some people will have seen him twice and some others, like me, once. I watched him quite a bit in the warm-up at Wigan and was quite encouraged; seemed like he could stop shots and catch the ball. Then, of course, I watched him in the first half when although Wigan had most possession they didn’t put him under much pressure. What he had to do he did competently and at half time I was happy with what I had seen so far. Then in the second half he was put under a lot of pressure, facing an almost incessant stream of crosses and corners and I saw he couldn’t handle anything put into a box with bodies in it.
So what’s he worth? Seems like something between £1.5 m (presumably the professional judgement) and nothing (just my opinion, which could also be worth nothing - in fact not just my opinion as I’ve just calculated the average for Thuram in the ‘Player Marks’ is 4.84, a bit above my 4). I’ll be interested to see what others think once more people have seen him play.
I also have some views on the other two question I posed at the start, but I’ve said enough for now.
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Comments
In answer to your first question, what Duchatelet has achieved with this loan deal and the related transfer of Ben Alnwick is;
1. A reduction in total player salaries, at the Group level.
2. He's given an asset which he paid good money for some game time. In turn, this will either help to develop him for future use within the network, probably either here or at Standard, or, alternatively, make it easier to sell him.
3. If, in the meantime, he's also received a transfer fee from Orient then that's a nice added bonus.
My guess is that, all other things being equal, Chris Powell would have preferred to retain Alnwick. However, it's not unreasonable for Duchatelet to arrange moves like these (it's his money, after all), provided, and it's a big proviso, the Manager is consulted, so that his opinion is heard, respected, and, most importantly, allowed to pick the team.
Whether Thuram is any good, we'll have to wait and see, but given his career history and the fee only recently paid for him, it's very hard to believe that he's a complete clown.
I too will reserve judgement on Thuram until seeing him live , whilst not decrying the marks awarded against Wigan by those there on CL , often when I award marks I am influenced by the score . I think it would be harsh to blame him for the goals although he was maybe a tad slow to get down. I notice that the Football League Paper awarded him a 7.
All I will say is that he does not seem to be on course for a place in the French World Cup squad on his current performances for us.
He is either going to be a disaster for us similar to Jim Stannard / Mick Kearns or Mike Walker or a develop into a legend who single handedly keeps us up,I suspect there will be no middle ground with Johann.
Excellent summary of possible answers, however what I am worried about is:
- yes a reduction in Group salaries, but very marginal in a group context. Alnwick would have been on peanuts, relatively. Reduction is only worth having if Thuram is at least as good as Alnwick for us.
- I have not seen or heard anything about a transfer fee for Alnwick, and since its Orient I doubt we got one. In fact I heard yesterday (on BBC London) they were only in for a keeper because they had someone on loan who was recalled to Hull last week.
I agree that it is hard to believe he's a complete clown, but by the heavens I have never read anything like what we read from the Wigan fans about a Charlton player since the internet was invented. But then again, he seemed to get a decent write up from the Huddersfield game. Maybe its a case of adjusting him to the English game, all that "putting it in the mixer" bollocks that is part of our game. I just think that this wasn't the right time to ask CAFC to take this task on.
I'm not rushing to judgement on Thuram as I have yet to see him play but I can't believe he is a bad as is currently being made out.
I agree that the cost saving secured is not likely to be material at Group level, but if you consistently apply the same principles at work here then it will become significant. More generally, I suspect Chris Powell will be under real pressure to justify every player on the wage bill and he may have had some uncomfortable discussions about that over the last two to three weeks.
However, I do share your concerns about the signing of Thuram. Even if the move is, at least in part, financially motivated, the footballing dimension is also critical. I made the following comment on another thread;
"If Duchatelet is going to run his network of Clubs in an integrated way then it is simply not credible for him, personally, to be making the player resourcing, development and deployment decisions. He has neither the experience nor the time. A European Director of Football is a must. If this does not happen then it's very bad news because it implies, potentially, that we'll see random and ill-judged interventions in playing matters. Thuram may be an example, though that's pure speculation on my part."
What Duchatelet appears to be doing is certainly logical and it might work out. However, I think there is the risk that he fails to understand just how brutally competitive the Championship is; it's possible to be highly intelligent, but naive.
Fingers crossed.
I'll therefore reserve my judgment for now but am not encouraged by the comments on this site, the highlights of yesterday (not that Thuram could be have expected to have saved either goal), the observations of the Wigan commentators yesterday or, indeed, the YouTube video that someone posted earlier today or last night (the man is clearly averse to catching the ball).
I understand RD's logic to a point but, a PragueAddick has said, the saving on Alnwick's wage is a drop in the ocean and it begs the question as to why we were loaned a goalie we didn't need when we have two decent one anyway.
I am afraid that none of this - the loan and, in particular, the disposal of Alnwick - can realistically have been in accordance with Chris Powell's wishes. Whilst none of us know what is going on behind the scenes, there is a fundamental distinction between genuine consultation and simply being informed of a decision that the owner has made.
Chris knows only too well how important it is to have a reliable keeper, particularly for a team in our predicament. Alnwick had the shirt - and rightly so, after a dozen or so decent performances.
You have to also feel for Morro and Wood yesterday - trying to nurse two young full backs through the game in front of a keeper who did not, in any real sense, command his area.
Let's hope he gets a bit a practice in this week before we face Birmingham. We don't want balls pinging around our six yard box against that great lump, Zigic.
"If Duchatelet is going to run his network of Clubs in an integrated way then it is simply not credible for him, personally, to be making the player resourcing, development and deployment decisions. He has neither the experience nor the time. A European Director of Football is a must. If this does not happen then it's very bad news because it implies, potentially, that we'll see random and ill-judged interventions in playing matters. Thuram may be an example, though that's pure speculation on my part."
I missed that post, but I am very glad you've written it. I've been asking myself if there isn't already such a person in his team. I bloody hope so. Because if RD is doing that job himself, that is a recipe for disaster. I don't want to believe that's what is happening.
Well we have a Belgian journalist who is probably best placed to find out (see the next Trust News!)
I can only hope that Thuram improves as he beds in and that he's currently suffering from stage fright/culture shock. I'm encouraged to think of three players (ok..not goalies..) who looked absolutely useless on debut or early games but bedded in and turned out to be ok.
Steve Dowman at Brentford (away)....didn't head a ball all night!
Eddie Youds v Forest....didn't win a header and resorted to kicking Van Hooijdonk.
Paddy McCarthy v Stoke (away)....rabbit in headlights.
And these were all domestic players with vast experience. The goalie coach will have taken one look at some of the nonsense in the penalty area yesterday and will no doubt be bombing loads of crosses in at Thuram this week but we're going to be a bit jumpy for a while yet until he settles down.
I'm not too encouraged by the Steve Dowman reminder:-) I think he symbolises just about the lowest point the club reached in my lifetime
But the other two, good calls.
How can this be reconciled with the Owner's objectives? First, if a player that "needs to play" is loaned out to a sister Club it's clear that the player must be good enough to warrant selection. I don't see how Duchatelet would know whether or not this is the case, however, and this is, of course, a concern. Second, if the player isn't selected, Duchatelet needs to believe that the Manager or Coach is being genuine and not simply making a point. That may not be an easy judgement for him to make either.
So what's the answer? I'm conscious that I'm now becoming a broken record on this, but as I said above, a European Director of Football and trusted confidant of Duchatelet is a must have. "Thuram is no better than the Keepers they've got Roland" or "he's struggling to adjust to the English game, that's why he's not being selected".
If Duchatelet thinks he can make these calls and manage all of this himself he's both delusional and very dangerous. Again, as I said above, let's keep our fingers crossed that he has his feet on the ground and that he'll aim to implement his vision professionally and not chaotically.
No, not a broken record; it bears repeating. The question is, does this person exist? And even if he does, he hardly would have had the chance to form a view before Alnwick was sold and the option of selecting him above Thuram was thereby closed off. The cost-benefit of making this hurried decision because of the imminent closure of the window looks dubious. The saving was very small (and much of it could have probably been achieved through the loan system if the manager was found guilty of non-cooperation). It all looks a bit more like a 'chaotic' implementation than a 'professional' one.
Given the volume of CAFC player transactions one wonders who might already be advising at the centre?
Our Belgian journalist friend might know a little more.
If there is someone then that is another person to give us an advantage over our Championship competitors.
I suggest his primary point of reference at the moment is Jean-François de Sart, the current Standard Liege Sporting Director.
de Sart is a former long standing manager of the Belgium U21 national side. He appeared instrumental in the surprise appointment of Guy Luzon as the current SL Head Coach. Luzon was apparently known to de Sart when Luzon was coach to the Israeli U21 national side. de Sart recommended him to RD.
As my comments elsewhere suggest I think we can see where we are all going here.
On the current keeper debate, Thuram, although signing professional with Monaco in 2008, has only had a couple of seasons actually playing in the French Leagues (not sure whether it was Ligue 1/ Ligue 2.)
He is still relatively inexperienced at a senior level and there is a world of difference between the pressure being a keeper in Ligue 2 and the Championship. Ligue 2 is played at a fairly sedentary and very technical level. I suspect being under the cosh for 85 minutes was a bit of a new experience
In more recent times the performance in this season's home televised league game against Millwall will live long in the memory as the nadir that was unfortunately reached.
Apparently he came to us despite interest from Ligue 1 because he wanted to be picked for France in the Brazil World Cup and needed match practice.The way we are going he may experience League 1 next year.
Confusing stories here about Thuram.
If the same fella who recommended (potentially a dud) signing him for €1.5m to Standard Liege is the fella moving these players around , then he may feel he has to justify his fuck up by bidding up the abilities of Thuram so as not to lose face
And through these politics we can end up having George Weahs cousin having to play in goal for us
If there is a full 90mins available on Charlton Player I'm gonna watch em to see if what was happening at the other end 2nd half with his weak punching was as bad as I thought, it was comedy keeping