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The Artificial Pitch debate

Moving on the debate how realistic is the option of a 4G or similar pitch at the Valley.

Currently banned by the FL but allowed in the Champions league and Scotland.

RD has had one laid at his first Belguim club.

What are the variety of pitches like?, how do they play? How much to they cost to install and to maintain? Can you use them 24/7 and if so what for?

A sensible option worth going to battle with the football league over OR an unnecessary gimmick not suitable for a major club aspiring to the Premeirship.

Discuss
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Comments

  • Would necessitate passing football and discourage rash challenges, so naturally I'm against it ;)

    In all seriousness, artificial pitches at their current best are absolutely incomparable to the Astroturf of yore. I've played on some decent ones, as a goalie, and can assure you all that it's preferable to grass, with its muddy goalmouths and weird bobbles.
  • Also I wonder if the FL would be more likely to grant us 'special dispensation' if we were to have another 2 or 3 games called off.
  • 4G pitches are very, very good.

    They are a million miles better than the old plastic pitches that QPR, Luton, etc,etc had back in the 80's. I think the FL should look into this again.
  • Even the relatively cheap plastic pitches at Goals are superb, so I imagine a top of the range 4g pitch would be absolutely fantastic .

    I can't believe the league voted against. There is a real opportunity here for many league clubs to install a pitch that needs minimal maintenance and can be used far more than a grass pitch, thus allowing clubs to get far more use (and therefore income) out of their stadia. Plus, in theory, you could simply sell off all or part of your training ground and use the pitch for training sessions.
  • What were the reasons the FL voted against it?

    Was it because those who had them/could afford them would have an unfair advantage against other clubs as they get 'used' to it?
  • The argument that an astroturf pitch doesn't play like a grass one no longer holds true. The fact is, grass pitches don't play like other grass pitches. For example, our pitch can't compare to Arsenal's. The original astroturf pitches were awful - it was better playing on concrete - but the current crop of 3G and 4G are more than adequate to hold professional games on. In some ways it is a pity we had to put up with the 80's pitches, because I feel it has clouded our attitudes towards the current ones. In all honesty, it makes sense that football totally moves over to them IMO.
  • cardiff blues have an artificial rugby pitch and it is quality
  • edited January 2014
    From June, 2012:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18285716


    Artificial pitches consultation finds widespread opposition to plans

    By Paul Fletcher
    BBC Sport
    A return to artificial pitches in English football looks unlikely after a Football League consultation found widespread opposition to the idea.

    The topic was discussed at the league's annual general meeting on Thursday.
    And it emerged that the Premier League and Professional Footballers' Association were among the official bodies against their reintroduction.

    There is no support for the idea in the Championship and just two clubs are keen on the idea in League One.
    However, discussions at the meeting in Portugal on Thursday revealed a 13-11 majority in favour of artificial surfaces in League Two.

    But that would not be enough to push through any change of regulations and there is not thought to be any realistic prospect of a club tabling an official proposal in the near future.

    Artificial surfaces in England
    QPR 1981-1988
    Luton 1985-1991
    Oldham 1986-1991
    Preston 1986-1994

    The 72 Football League clubs listened to a series of presentations on Thursday, including one from the Football Association's national facilities manager Mark Pover and another from Fifa's playing surfaces programme manager Stuart Parman.

    They also heard the feedback from the consultation period, which ended in April and drew more than 1,700 individual responses from clubs, fans and official bodies.

    The clubs then discussed the issue in their divisional meeting before returning with their conclusions on Friday.
    Strong support had been anticipated from League One clubs. However, the potential cost of installing an artificial surface - in the region of £500,000 - combined with the likelihood that a club would have to replace it with real grass if they won promotion to the Championship are thought to have counted against the idea.

    Artificial surfaces were banned by the FAD in 1988 and the last remaining one in the top four divisions - at Preston North End's Deepdale - was ripped up in 1994.

    However, advances in technology, combined with possible financial and community benefits, had led to a rethink on the subject, which was discussed at several Football League meetings last season.

    Clubs at the AGM in Portugal also voted unanimously to support a proposal by Exeter to encourage sportsmanship and curb gamesmanship during matches.

    Clubs will tell their managers, coaches and players to avoid showing disrespect towards officials, and diving, time wasting and feigning injury will also be discouraged.

    Referees will be instructed to take action against players obstructing the quick taking of free-kicks and stealing ground at throw-ins.

    "As a collective of clubs, we have a responsibility to protect the image and long-term health of the game of football," said Football League chairman Greg Clarke.

    "We will now use them as a platform from which to engage with those parties that can help us change our game for the better."
  • Saracens RUFC has a plastic pitch in their new stadium. Many NFL teams play on plastic. Most modern 'turf' surfaces have a large plastic content, whereby bunches of natural fibre are joined together with plastic bindings and many have a silicone type surface sprayed onto grass/turf. Modern artificial playing surfaces bear no resemblance to the old (for example) QPR trampoline type surface. However, I am old school and would hate to see football become carpetball despite the economic logic behind and the reliability of installing plastic pitches
  • Definitely in favour, means the pitch can also be hired out during the week so could also become a revenue stream.
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  • I think we're getting to the stage where artificial pitches shortly will be (if they aren't already) better than a natural grass surface from every point of view apart from a nostalgic/historic view point.
  • edited January 2014
    I am old school in that I would prefer to see football less about commercialised money grabbing! The shame is - the bit of football that has moved into the modern world is the wrong bit and the bits that should, haven't!!
  • How good are they for doing a knee slide for goal celebrations?
  • But it seems our problem isn't what's on top of the pitch but the waterlogged soil beneath?

    Would floating a nice green plastic pitch on top of it solve that?
  • DustyRed said:

    How good are they for doing a knee slide for goal celebrations?


    pretty good for those who've had their natural kneecaps replaced with ones made from plastic
  • I ain't ever smoked Astroturf
  • Moving on the debate how realistic is the option of a 4G or similar pitch at the Valley.

    Currently banned by the FL but allowed in the Champions league and Scotland.

    RD has had one laid at his first Belguim club.

    What are the variety of pitches like?, how do they play? How much to they cost to install and to maintain? Can you use them 24/7 and if so what for?

    A sensible option worth going to battle with the football league over OR an unnecessary gimmick not suitable for a major club aspiring to the Premeirship.

    Discuss


    Doesn't that make this a meaningless debate :S
  • Would love to see one at The Valley
  • Loco said:

    Moving on the debate how realistic is the option of a 4G or similar pitch at the Valley.

    Currently banned by the FL but allowed in the Champions league and Scotland.

    RD has had one laid at his first Belguim club.

    What are the variety of pitches like?, how do they play? How much to they cost to install and to maintain? Can you use them 24/7 and if so what for?

    A sensible option worth going to battle with the football league over OR an unnecessary gimmick not suitable for a major club aspiring to the Premeirship.

    Discuss


    Doesn't that make this a meaningless debate :S
    In one sense yes - but in another no. Surely, if you disagree with the FL decision - you should debate it on a site like this.
  • We train our boys team on one every week they are superb
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  • Man Utd played the final of the Champions League cup in Russia on plastic. Maidstone are making big money as others use their pitch.

    It is the way forward at all levels and the FA etc should leave it to clubs to make their own decisions on this - but set the minimum standard of plastic that can be used.

    We need a level playing field ! Bring it on.
  • cafc999 said:

    4G pitches are very, very good.

    They are a million miles better than the old plastic pitches that QPR, Luton, etc,etc had back in the 80's. I think the FL should look into this again.

    cafc999 said:

    4G pitches are very, very good.

    They are a million miles better than the old plastic pitches that QPR, Luton, etc,etc had back in the 80's. I think the FL should look into this again.

    What's it like to slide tackle on them? Do you still get burns?
  • No burns on the one's i've played on.

    The Football League are against them, because the Premier League are so anti them, which in effect scares the conference into not allowing them
  • But the artificial pitches are different than grass the ball will react different spin, bounce etc. Totally against the idea.
  • Rothko said:

    No burns on the one's i've played on.

    The Football League are against them, because the Premier League are so anti them, which in effect scares the conference into not allowing them

    Why are they against them? Does it just come down to the old English argument about respecting tradition despite progress?
  • Suspect that this might be the kind of cause that Duchatelet would relish the opportunity to launch himself into. Football is populated by reactionaries and Luddites, but it would be nice to see us lead the way.
  • Yes. Burns when you slide due to the nature of the 'grass', can they happen? Also when jumping and landing what kind of give or spring is in the new pitches? If the ball is played long, does the surface have the same kind of holding up/slowing down properties as grass? Because of what is underneath is there any more or less danger of a fall injury on this surface, and does the ball bounce like on grass? Will the ball run true if played along the ground, or will the angle of fibre tend towards a bias?

    If most of the above were properly satisfied, and had been tested in all kinds of conditions, then I am afraid that artificial makes sense, especially for 'sweating the asset' of the stadium. Would love to have shedloads for the latest grass pitch with a personal grounds men/women to love a square foot each and tend each blade to the N'th degree.

    However if Football can still be Football, without any risk to players, then it really does make sense.

  • Having torn 3 knee ligaments year and half ago including the ACL, I would say there not the greatest on knee's, also belive that was the reason Andy Hughes (and possibly Solly) sat out the Gilbraltor game pre season. I'd be against it!!!!
  • edited January 2014

    But the artificial pitches are different than grass the ball will react different spin, bounce etc. Totally against the idea.

    Yes, the ball will bounce consistently unlike the way it did during our last home game! The is quite a big variety in the way grass pitches behave and 4G pitches are within that spectrum so I can't see a problem. When I played football, they were not as good as they are now. My son plays on them from time to time - I wish boys would play on them all the time - some of the pitches he and his team mates and opponents have to play on do not encourage good football. He had his match called off today - and has had a fair number this season - on a 3G or 4G pitch they could have played on a terrific, consistent surface! I tried some keeping on one after he had played a game a few years back and it was a revelation to me after a few dives. I couldn't believe how much they had improved in a relatively short time. I was actually enjoying diving on the pitch, which is more than I can say for some of the grass and artificial pitches I used to play on. I think the people who support 4G are the ones who have experienced them - and are not dinosaurs of course - which is one of footballs biggest handicaps!

  • Nothing will ever happen in the FL until the Premier League are willing to accept them. If we install one, then win the play-offs, we either don't go up or have to pay circa £500,000 to re install grass. That's a pointless exercise.

    Also believe the Players Union is against them as they can be quite hard wearing on joints (ankles, knees hips etc) therefore they don't want them installed as could lead to more players picking up longer term or possibly career ending problems. Ledley King played every other game on grass, I doubt he could play at all on a 4G surface.
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