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Youth vs Experience - where is CAFC going?

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  • I wonder if he is happier down south now. His wife/ girlfriend has been an ever present at home games this season. Maybe he has his family down here now and is not away from his partner and young daughter. Could make a big difference to him.
  • I wonder if he is happier down south now. His wife/ girlfriend has been an ever present at home games this season. Maybe he has his family down here now and is not away from his partner and young daughter. Could make a big difference to him.

    I have a friend who is a plasterer and has a faint link to Dale,

    According to my friend, the last he heard from Dale is that he was buying a house closer to home near Manchester and my friend was to be involved with the work on the house.

    Take that as you wish, could be an investment, could be something else...
  • Moving away from Dale, it seems financially that our youth policy which despite losing some good lads is looking good now, is the only available route to success. By adding experience which should not mean silly money, you can produce a blend that works.
  • Yes, we are starting the reap the rewards of the youth policy, with more to come I expect.
  • First a question we've signed a number of players in recent weeks, what deal are they likely to be on?

    The problem I have with this whole argument is percentages, i.e. the youth signings are never going to be enough for a first team squad next year.

    The following first teamers are out of contract come June and can walk

    Jackson - club captain
    Stephens - main creative force in our squad
    Wiggins - Welsh International
    Morrison - ever present centre half
    Hamer - first choice keeper
    Cort - 2nd half of last season main centre half
    Dervite - another CB from the first team squad

    Have I missed anyone?

    We have missed the summer 'deadline' for signing these players who can now talk to other clubs from January.

    That is pretty much a complete squad rebuild next spring, which is not going to be filled by academy players, or am I wrong there?


  • razil said:

    First a question we've signed a number of players in recent weeks, what deal are they likely to be on?

    The problem I have with this whole argument is percentages, i.e. the youth signings are never going to be enough for a first team squad next year.

    The following first teamers are out of contract come June and can walk

    Jackson - club captain
    Stephens - main creative force in our squad
    Wiggins - Welsh International
    Morrison - ever present centre half
    Hamer - first choice keeper
    Cort - 2nd half of last season main centre half
    Dervite - another CB from the first team squad

    Have I missed anyone?

    We have missed the summer 'deadline' for signing these players who can now talk to other clubs from January.

    That is pretty much a complete squad rebuild next spring, which is not going to be filled by academy players, or am I wrong there?


    You missed Evina.

    Of these players Evina,Jackson,Cort and Dervite will probably only be one year deals and I suspect all of them would be content with this.

    The ones that worry me are Hamer,Morrison and Wiggins. I think Stephens will be off because it looks like he will move back north.
  • since he's not played 1st team much, and has just signed and extension I didn't bother
  • IMO deals for Hamer, Morrison and Wiggins will be on the table in due course - the club will want to protect the transfer value of these players.

    Players like Kermo and Jacko will get offered deals, simply because Powell will want them around him - and I guess that they will want to stay as long as Powell is here.

    Stephens should be offered a deal with a clause that he can leave, if an acceptable offer comes in.

    Evina is desperate to play, and if he can't play for Charlton then he'll go where he thinks he can get games.
    Dervite and Cort are possibly easier to replace, but depending on form and appearances they could be offered extensions at the end of the season.

    One thing in our favour - CP has built a great cameraderie in the squad and most players may feel they like it here.
    It's a good place to go to work.

  • So the question is, is there a real plan here or is it brinkmanship while club is up for sale
  • Oggy Red said:

    IMO deals for Hamer, Morrison and Wiggins will be on the table in due course - the club will want to protect the transfer value of these players.

    Players like Kermo and Jacko will get offered deals, simply because Powell will want them around him - and I guess that they will want to stay as long as Powell is here.

    Stephens should be offered a deal with a clause that he can leave, if an acceptable offer comes in.

    Evina is desperate to play, and if he can't play for Charlton then he'll go where he thinks he can get games.
    Dervite and Cort are possibly easier to replace, but depending on form and appearances they could be offered extensions at the end of the season.

    One thing in our favour - CP has built a great cameraderie in the squad and most players may feel they like it here.
    It's a good place to go to work.

    Oggy you've hit the nail on the head with your last sentence , listening to the radio today , they were saying Holloway didn't think Palace had a good togetherness about them as he brought in 16 players in the Summer , its certainly key to success in any organisation / walk of life.

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  • We all dream of a team of youth players, a team of youth players, a team of youth players....I give you:

    Keeper: Pope.
    RB : Solly
    LB: Holmes Dennis
    CB: Gomez
    CB: Lennon
    RW: Muldoon
    LW Harriot
    CM: Cousins
    CM: Poyet
    S: Piggy
    S: Aherne Grant
  • Heard something a couple of days ago that surprised me a bit. 'crisis?what crisis?'. Things are,apparently, going to plan. The initial plan was promotion and consolidation. The consolidation period however was 2 seasons. The second allowing Chris to sort the diamonds from the chaff. New contracts given to those selected for the new phase of promotion and consolidation in the biggy,which will begin in earnest next season.New Squad investment to follow.
  • Heard something a couple of days ago that surprised me a bit. 'crisis?what crisis?'. Things are,apparently, going to plan. The initial plan was promotion and consolidation. The consolidation period however was 2 seasons. The second allowing Chris to sort the diamonds from the chaff. New contracts given to those selected for the new phase of promotion and consolidation in the biggy,which will begin in earnest next season.New Squad investment to follow.

    Excuse me, that is far too positive.
    Please remove.
  • razil said:

    So the question is, is there a real plan here or is it brinkmanship while club is up for sale

    The players you mention are important to the current squad and I agree cannot be replaced by the academy overnight. I expect some if not all will be approached by the club.

    The thing is there are another 10 players who either have nil chance of renewal or might be offered lower terms on 1 year deals... that sort of kills the hysteria about the whole squad disappearing followed by a quick sale of the Valley!

    The big question is what is the budget for next season possibly with new owners??? For that is what determines who will be offered what to stay and who might be added...

    And of course who is managing in 2014-15!

  • edited October 2013

    Heard something a couple of days ago that surprised me a bit. 'crisis?what crisis?'. Things are,apparently, going to plan. The initial plan was promotion and consolidation. The consolidation period however was 2 seasons. The second allowing Chris to sort the diamonds from the chaff. New contracts given to those selected for the new phase of promotion and consolidation in the biggy,which will begin in earnest next season.New Squad investment to follow.

    Except that doesn't tie up with the fact that the best opportunity to get promoted was last season and this one... consolidate sure but then time to push on even if there are players in the squad who will not be renewed...

    With the increase in parachute money it is going to be far far harder to secure promotion in 2014-15 as FFP limits come down... or is that the time to start breaking the rules?

    Isn't it more about the club being for sale and that the new owners will have a big choice over the squad for next season?
  • IMO this season many of the bigger Champs clubs are still living way beyond their means, and will get hit hard next season if they're not promoted.

    With some of these clubs crippled with fines and transfer embargoes, and Charlton already streamlined to conform to FFP requirements - maybe this is the time the club has earmarked for the big push?



  • Oggy Red said:

    IMO this season many of the bigger Champs clubs are still living way beyond their means, and will get hit hard next season if they're not promoted.

    With some of these clubs crippled with fines and transfer embargoes, and Charlton already streamlined to conform to FFP requirements - maybe this is the time the club has earmarked for the big push?



    Maybe Airman is wrong and there IS a plan ?

  • Didnt murray admit there was no 5 year plan at a bromley question and answer?! It sounds like theyre cutting there losses
  • Oggy Red said:

    IMO this season many of the bigger Champs clubs are still living way beyond their means, and will get hit hard next season if they're not promoted.

    With some of these clubs crippled with fines and transfer embargoes, and Charlton already streamlined to conform to FFP requirements - maybe this is the time the club has earmarked for the big push?



    Maybe Airman is wrong and there IS a plan ?

    Maybe he isn't. After all, what kind of plan would it be that envisages spending £16m (the club's figures in their own sales document) to tread water for two years, risk relegation wiping out your ultimate chances of success anyway, and then bet the club on breaking through in one season regardless of FFP.

    People keep looking for a rationale because they don't have enough pieces of the jigsaw and want to believe there is a pattern that will explain everything if only they can find it. There isn't. The club will be sold, and only then will we find out what's coming next.
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  • Oggy Red said:

    IMO this season many of the bigger Champs clubs are still living way beyond their means, and will get hit hard next season if they're not promoted.

    With some of these clubs crippled with fines and transfer embargoes, and Charlton already streamlined to conform to FFP requirements - maybe this is the time the club has earmarked for the big push?



    Maybe Airman is wrong and there IS a plan ?

    Maybe he isn't. After all, what kind of plan would it be that envisages spending £16m (the club's figures in their own sales document) to tread water for two years, risk relegation wiping out your ultimate chances of success anyway, and then bet the club on breaking through in one season regardless of FFP.

    People keep looking for a rationale because they don't have enough pieces of the jigsaw and want to believe there is a pattern that will explain everything if only they can find it. There isn't. The club will be sold, and only then will we find out what's coming next.
    Optimism from Carly's post now removed - back to normal business now people : )
  • razil said:

    First a question we've signed a number of players in recent weeks, what deal are they likely to be on?

    The problem I have with this whole argument is percentages, i.e. the youth signings are never going to be enough for a first team squad next year.

    The following first teamers are out of contract come June and can walk

    Jackson - club captain
    Stephens - main creative force in our squad
    Wiggins - Welsh International
    Morrison - ever present centre half
    Hamer - first choice keeper
    Cort - 2nd half of last season main centre half
    Dervite - another CB from the first team squad

    Have I missed anyone?

    We have missed the summer 'deadline' for signing these players who can now talk to other clubs from January.

    That is pretty much a complete squad rebuild next spring, which is not going to be filled by academy players, or am I wrong there?


    Wood is also out of contract in the summer as are, still, many of the U21 squad.

    But your concerns are, according to another Trust board member nothing more than "panic and hysteria"

  • It was a tongue in cheek comment, Airman .

    I'm obviously still not completely au fait with these smiley faces etc.
  • edited October 2013

    razil said:

    First a question we've signed a number of players in recent weeks, what deal are they likely to be on?

    The problem I have with this whole argument is percentages, i.e. the youth signings are never going to be enough for a first team squad next year.

    The following first teamers are out of contract come June and can walk

    Jackson - club captain
    Stephens - main creative force in our squad
    Wiggins - Welsh International
    Morrison - ever present centre half
    Hamer - first choice keeper
    Cort - 2nd half of last season main centre half
    Dervite - another CB from the first team squad

    Have I missed anyone?

    We have missed the summer 'deadline' for signing these players who can now talk to other clubs from January.

    That is pretty much a complete squad rebuild next spring, which is not going to be filled by academy players, or am I wrong there?


    Wood is also out of contract in the summer as are, still, many of the U21 squad.

    But your concerns are, according to another Trust board member nothing more than "panic and hysteria"

    Too right Henry, time to grow some!

    Think I already mentioned Hamer Wiggins and Stephens higher up the thread?

    Either you are genuinely worried about all 14 players disappearing over the summer or you are shamelessly spinning against the club and actually leveraging the fact that a handful of players may refuse to sign unless there is hard cash and ambition on the table.

    All this without providing even the beginnings of a coherent strategy.

    Am I saying everything is rosy in the garden? Am I fuck?! For I believe 100% that this was the season to push on for it is going to get harder next year as parachute monies increase

    But time to support the club and find ways forward. Ideally a new board arrives with the wealth and interest to push CAFC on to the next level but no idea when this might happen.

    For reasons I won't go into I suspect a the club is far closer to a sale than it has been... and think it rational to propose that the price is a long way south of the £40M rumoured to be the asking price over the summer...for one thing we are a long way from 9th in the league where we finished last time.
  • Oggy Red said:

    IMO this season many of the bigger Champs clubs are still living way beyond their means, and will get hit hard next season if they're not promoted.

    With some of these clubs crippled with fines and transfer embargoes, and Charlton already streamlined to conform to FFP requirements - maybe this is the time the club has earmarked for the big push?



    Maybe Airman is wrong and there IS a plan ?

    Maybe he isn't. After all, what kind of plan would it be that envisages spending £16m (the club's figures in their own sales document) to tread water for two years, risk relegation wiping out your ultimate chances of success anyway, and then bet the club on breaking through in one season regardless of FFP.

    People keep looking for a rationale because they don't have enough pieces of the jigsaw and want to believe there is a pattern that will explain everything if only they can find it. There isn't. The club will be sold, and only then will we find out what's coming next.
    Probably time for that poxy supporters Trust to step up and start asking some questions?!
    And yes, the club will be sold
  • razil said:

    First a question we've signed a number of players in recent weeks, what deal are they likely to be on?

    The problem I have with this whole argument is percentages, i.e. the youth signings are never going to be enough for a first team squad next year.

    The following first teamers are out of contract come June and can walk

    Jackson - club captain
    Stephens - main creative force in our squad
    Wiggins - Welsh International
    Morrison - ever present centre half
    Hamer - first choice keeper
    Cort - 2nd half of last season main centre half
    Dervite - another CB from the first team squad

    Have I missed anyone?

    We have missed the summer 'deadline' for signing these players who can now talk to other clubs from January.

    That is pretty much a complete squad rebuild next spring, which is not going to be filled by academy players, or am I wrong there?


    Wood is also out of contract in the summer as are, still, many of the U21 squad.

    But your concerns are, according to another Trust board member nothing more than "panic and hysteria"

    Too right Henry, time to grow some!

    Think I already mentioned Hamer Wiggins and Stephens higher up the thread?

    Either you are genuinely worried about all 14 players disappearing over the summer or you are shamelessly spinning against the club and actually leveraging the fact that a handful of players may refuse to sign unless there is hard cash and ambition on the table.

    All this without providing even the beginnings of a coherent strategy.

    Am I saying everything is rosy in the garden? Am I fuck?! For I believe 100% that this was the season to push on for it is going to get harder next year as parachute monies increase

    But time to support the club and find ways forward. Ideally a new board arrives with the wealth and interest to push CAFC on to the next level but no idea when this might happen.

    For reasons I won't go into I suspect a the club is far closer to a sale than it has been... and think it rational to propose that the price is a long way south of the £40M rumoured to be the asking price over the summer...for one thing we are a long way from 9th in the league where we finished last time.
    Way further south if press comments are true that Mandaric is considering offers in region of £25m for The Wendies!
  • razil said:

    First a question we've signed a number of players in recent weeks, what deal are they likely to be on?

    The problem I have with this whole argument is percentages, i.e. the youth signings are never going to be enough for a first team squad next year.

    The following first teamers are out of contract come June and can walk

    Jackson - club captain
    Stephens - main creative force in our squad
    Wiggins - Welsh International
    Morrison - ever present centre half
    Hamer - first choice keeper
    Cort - 2nd half of last season main centre half
    Dervite - another CB from the first team squad

    Have I missed anyone?

    We have missed the summer 'deadline' for signing these players who can now talk to other clubs from January.

    That is pretty much a complete squad rebuild next spring, which is not going to be filled by academy players, or am I wrong there?


    Wood is also out of contract in the summer as are, still, many of the U21 squad.

    But your concerns are, according to another Trust board member nothing more than "panic and hysteria"

    Too right Henry, time to grow some!

    Think I already mentioned Hamer Wiggins and Stephens higher up the thread?

    Either you are genuinely worried about all 14 players disappearing over the summer or you are shamelessly spinning against the club and actually leveraging the fact that a handful of players may refuse to sign unless there is hard cash and ambition on the table.

    All this without providing even the beginnings of a coherent strategy.

    Am I saying everything is rosy in the garden? Am I fuck?! For I believe 100% that this was the season to push on for it is going to get harder next year as parachute monies increase

    But time to support the club and find ways forward. Ideally a new board arrives with the wealth and interest to push CAFC on to the next level but no idea when this might happen.

    For reasons I won't go into I suspect a the club is far closer to a sale than it has been... and think it rational to propose that the price is a long way south of the £40M rumoured to be the asking price over the summer...for one thing we are a long way from 9th in the league where we finished last time.
    Not me you are "argueing" with though is it, it's Razil the Chair of CAS Trust. Seems you think he needs to "grow some."

    Or this is a very unsubtle attempt to re-position the trust as a hard hitting, tough question-asking group by staging a "disagreement" between two board members.

    Disappointing.

    There are a range of valid viiews as to how best to manage the contract situations which could have been the subject of some in-depth analysis but as with the FFP article that hasn't happened in any real sense. Another opportunity missed by offering a false youth v experience choice.
  • "Too little too late" again from Henry! Would take that seriously if you hadn't said the same thing about the 1-0 win away to Blackburn...
    Thing is you are a member of the Trust? Why dont you write something?
    I know it's far easier to sit on the sidelines and throw things but you might find it more rewarding to actually structure some thoughts and put them down.

    Whether Razil needs to grow some has got nothing to do with this thread(!) ... what he has done is to expand this thread into a question about the best players in the squad.
    Thing is you haven't answered my question though have you? Are you genuinely concerned about the whole squad, just the best players or perhaps you are spinning this to attack the owners.

    Are you asking these owners you despise so much to throw in another couple of million? And how do you know that the executive Vice President, Martin Prothero is not already engaged in discussions with players and agents or perhaps you prefer to sit back and write critiques of his programme notes.

    The biggest question is the one you also fail to address - what is the loss budget for next season and who is paying for it.
  • "Too little too late" again from Henry! Would take that seriously if you hadn't said the same thing about the 1-0 win away to Blackburn...
    Thing is you are a member of the Trust? Why dont you write something?
    I know it's far easier to sit on the sidelines and throw things but you might find it more rewarding to actually structure some thoughts and put them down.

    Whether Razil needs to grow some has got nothing to do with this thread(!) ... what he has done is to expand this thread into a question about the best players in the squad.
    Thing is you haven't answered my question though have you? Are you genuinely concerned about the whole squad, just the best players or perhaps you are spinning this to attack the owners.

    Are you asking these owners you despise so much to throw in another couple of million? And how do you know that the executive Vice President, Martin Prothero is not already engaged in discussions with players and agents or perhaps you prefer to sit back and write critiques of his programme notes.

    The biggest question is the one you also fail to address - what is the loss budget for next season and who is paying for it.

    But you never asked me those questions, you asked Barnie. Barnie, your co-board member raised the issues which you has already dismissed as "panic and hysteria"

    I never said the win the Blackburn was "too little, too late". You seem to be getting me and other people confused or are just making stuff up.

    Does Prothoro know you are passing on what he tells you on CL (new takeover, cheaper price, MP engaged with players and agents) or it that want he wants you to do? Did he tell you to do that or was it someone else?

    But on one thing you are right. I am a member of the Supporters' Trust. Not for much longer though.


  • There are a handful of key assets that we need to sign up for longer contracts (e.g Wiggins, Yann, Hamer), but most of the other players are of the sort who will in the modern football world have to cope with short contracts, e.g. the likes of Dervite and Wood. If after this year they sign on for another year, then great. If they don't, well we can probably find someone of a similar level also on a free.
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