Like I said we will publish more precise numbers in a full survey report.
Just looked it up and the number is 8% since 2007
Total numbers: 50.5% pre-date leaving the Valley; 7.5% Selhurst; 19% back at the Valley; 15% Premier League; 8% since relegation from the Premier League.
So its 3% a year when marketing / promotion was full on in the 90s...but the numbers who first came to the Valley in the Premier League AND still come are less than 2% per season.
As for the catchment area we gathered the first two letters of the post code which gives a pretty good idea of where people live now...not the same as when fans started going but still a picture.
Yes, I wasn't doubting the figures, or the efforts to recruit new fans - just astonished at how old and entrenched we all are!
I think it's possible. Who'd have thought in the days of Target 10,000 that we'd have just averaged 18.5k for a mid-table finish. Still less, who'd have thought we'd be averaging 27,000 whilst in the Premiership. Possible - but there's a few things we'd need to do first; it ain't gonna happen by accident.
- Get in the Premiership and stay in the Premiership. - Develop the ground (if it can be done post-Landsdowne). - Find a way of getting local (and not so local) people to associate with the club rather than the pixelated tv clubs of Skysportland. - More flexibility in seating so that bigger teams can bring more away fans. - Provide match day experience that is overwhelmingly positive. Winning matches and playing attractive football are key to this, but there's more to it as well. - Providing hope that we can win something - cup runs.
Like I said we will publish more precise numbers in a full survey report.
Just looked it up and the number is 8% since 2007
Total numbers: 50.5% pre-date leaving the Valley; 7.5% Selhurst; 19% back at the Valley; 15% Premier League; 8% since relegation from the Premier League.
So its 3% a year when marketing / promotion was full on in the 90s...but the numbers who first came to the Valley in the Premier League AND still come are less than 2% per season.
As for the catchment area we gathered the first two letters of the post code which gives a pretty good idea of where people live now...not the same as when fans started going but still a picture.
It would be really interesting to see how those figures compare with other clubs. On one hand I think that all clubs must have a fair share of oldies; after all, isn't it in the nature of things that people get interested in football in the school playground at and carry that interest throughout there lives? That being the case it's quite easy for a middle aged person to have amassed 30+ years following their team. On the other hand, the old-duffer to young-buck balance does seem a little skewed from what I've seen at Charlton.
It is possible those numbers are skewed by factors like younger fans not doing the surveys? But there is a common sense test... think about the average gate when we were at Selhurst and before... then look at the year on year increase in the 90s... and the big push when the North Upper was opened followed by the drop when we were relegated...
The demographics will only change as and when forces come together to increase the gate with new/lapsed fans year on year irrespective of performance on the pitch
Alternative we could focus on cornering the market in flasks, blankets and SAGA holidays and Insurance?!
Like I said we will publish more precise numbers in a full survey report.
Just looked it up and the number is 8% since 2007
Total numbers: 50.5% pre-date leaving the Valley; 7.5% Selhurst; 19% back at the Valley; 15% Premier League; 8% since relegation from the Premier League.
So its 3% a year when marketing / promotion was full on in the 90s...but the numbers who first came to the Valley in the Premier League AND still come are less than 2% per season.
As for the catchment area we gathered the first two letters of the post code which gives a pretty good idea of where people live now...not the same as when fans started going but still a picture.
It would be really interesting to see how those figures compare with other clubs. On one hand I think that all clubs must have a fair share of oldies; after all, isn't it in the nature of things that people get interested in football in the school playground at and carry that interest throughout there lives? That being the case it's quite easy for a middle aged person to have amassed 30+ years following their team. On the other hand, the old-duffer to young-buck balance does seem a little skewed from what I've seen at Charlton.
Oh, I appreciate all too well what you say, Stig. Three or four years ago for our FA Cup game against Luton, I vacated my usual sock in the Lower North and took a seat at the extremity of the of the West, quite low down close to the pitch, in the cause of sociological research. What I found there in front of me was a class of six-year-old sprogs on a school outing, all scoffing chips with lurid ketchup and joshing over their mobile phones - and during the whole ninety minutes, not one of them even glanced at the pitch. I have to say, Paul Benson was a very, very poor striker, and after a while even the back of the kids' teacher's neck had a delicious allure.
I'm back in my usual seat in the Lower North. Last season, during those utterly pitiful midfield collapses when Pritchard and Stephens were routinely brushed aside, I leapt up and gave it some grief, waving my arms at them, and Powell, and the whole coaching regime. And the chap sitting next to me, a fellow sixty-year-old season ticket holder, was blithely chatting to his neighbour about her caravan at Camber Sands.
The football has to be the hook. You can build the best cinema in the world but if the films are all rubbish it will be empty.
Agree, good food (or Nandos as KHA calls it), drink, comfortable seats, surround sound etc etc mean you enjoy going to that cinema but that in itself won't make you go.
I agree with razil. You have to separate out the performance on the pitch. Of course it has a significant impact on attendance but he is making the case for increasing that attendance, whether it be from 20k to 25k when times are good or 7k to 8k when they are not. The best way to effectively increase attendance is by looking at and improving the whole matchday experience, from ticket availability and sales to food and drink etc etc etc. I visit National Trust properties from time to time. They make it so easy to find properties, opening times, facilities etc via their website, then they provide free parking (mostly). free info on what is available, friendly and informative 'staff' and excellent presentation. They make the whole experience easy and enjoyable. Its that level of customer satisfaction that we should be aiming for. Perhaps we should learn some lessons from the Olympics where everything was planned in great detail which smooths the way for customers having a great time?
I agree with razil. You have to separate out the performance on the pitch. Of course it has a significant impact on attendance but he is making the case for increasing that attendance, whether it be from 20k to 25k when times are good or 7k to 8k when they are not. The best way to effectively increase attendance is by looking at and improving the whole matchday experience, from ticket availability and sales to food and drink etc etc etc. I visit National Trust properties from time to time. They make it so easy to find properties, opening times, facilities etc via their website, then they provide free parking (mostly). free info on what is available, friendly and informative 'staff' and excellent presentation. They make the whole experience easy and enjoyable. Its that level of customer satisfaction that we should be aiming for. Perhaps we should learn some lessons from the Olympics where everything was planned in great detail which smooths the way for customers having a great time?
Not to disagree with you Hex, but I have little interest in National Trust properties (I'm getting there but at 42 it isn't something I really like yet) so no amount of nice food, free parking etc. will make me want to go.
I might do something like that if I was invited to go with friends - for the company rather than the sightseeing.
Making football stadia nicer places for children helps, making it easier to buy tickets helps, making the concerns about food helps, but these things only help. Even with a free ticket, free Valley Express and a free meal many would turn it down.
Out of interest, when I was working full time I used to get offered free tickets (and travel, food, drink, the lot) for Premier League games. I could have gone to a different game every week if I'd wanted to. Including Man Utd, with an overnight in a hotel, but I almost never went to any of them. I think I did four in three years and they were all Charlton away games. Despite the match day experience (which would have cost best part of a grand all in, had I been paying) I didn't want to go.
Promotions help, but the football has to be what makes people want to come back. The truth is that, outside of the promotion cheap tickets, football is more expensive to attend than almost any other leisure activity (excluding the exceptional events). If the football is not enough then why not go to the cinema, or out for a nice meal, or visit a National Trust property?
Hygenie factors (easy parking, clean toilets, nice cake) won't in themselves make you go to a NT property (and I am a member) but the lack of the same will put some people off. Same with going to football.
Motivation factors (interesting building, special exhibition, nice gardens) will make you go. Same with football ie team doing well, attractive opposition, crunch game, good value tickets, good atmosphere but these are all related to football.
Not to disagree with you Hex, but I have little interest in National Trust properties (I'm getting there but at 42 it isn't something I really like yet) so no amount of nice food, free parking etc. will make me want to go.
I might do something like that if I was invited to go with friends - for the company rather than the sightseeing.
Making football stadia nicer places for children helps, making it easier to buy tickets helps, making the concerns about food helps, but these things only help. Even with a free ticket, free Valley Express and a free meal many would turn it down.
Out of interest, when I was working full time I used to get offered free tickets (and travel, food, drink, the lot) for Premier League games. I could have gone to a different game every week if I'd wanted to. Including Man Utd, with an overnight in a hotel, but I almost never went to any of them. I think I did four in three years and they were all Charlton away games. Despite the match day experience (which would have cost best part of a grand all in, had I been paying) I didn't want to go.
Promotions help, but the football has to be what makes people want to come back. The truth is that, outside of the promotion cheap tickets, football is more expensive to attend than almost any other leisure activity (excluding the exceptional events). If the football is not enough then why not go to the cinema, or out for a nice meal, or visit a National Trust property?
Hygenie factors (easy parking, clean toilets, nice cake) won't in themselves make you go to a NT property (and I am a member) but the lack of the same will put some people off. Same with going to football.
Motivation factors (interesting building, special exhibition, nice gardens) will make you go. Same with football ie team doing well, attractive opposition, crunch game, good value tickets, good atmosphere but these are all related to football.
So, if we did get 'you' to a match with friends but once there the Hygene Factors initially put you off so that you turned down future invites then we failed. We have to make it difficult for first-time attendees to turn down subsequent offers by minimising any reasons for their refusal. Sometimes it takes going to more than one match before you are hooked (stricken ?).
Remember also, we are aiming at a very small percentage of a very large audience, so just because a lot of people will turn down offers, its not a good reason to not make the offer in the first place (but you should find out why they turned it down). So, why didn't you go to those prem matches? ;-)
We could fill that but as someone said earlier wouldn't be all Charlton fans, give me 17/18k proper fans over 35k any day.
It's the so called proper fans that put me off going these days. In the heady Prem days when the stands were packed the old moaners were not as noticeable. But these days wherever you sit you're never more than a few feet away from some miserable old git moaning and groaning. "Get 'im off" "XXXX! You're rubbish" "Powell/Parky/Pardew! You're useless!" Then the whole place lets out an exasperated sigh once the first pass goes astray. Going to football to me is a pastime that is supposed to be enjoyed but it seems to me many just go to let off steam and revel in poor performances.
Hygenie factors (easy parking, clean toilets, nice cake) won't in themselves make you go to a NT property (and I am a member) but the lack of the same will put some people off. Same with going to football.
Motivation factors (interesting building, special exhibition, nice gardens) will make you go. Same with football ie team doing well, attractive opposition, crunch game, good value tickets, good atmosphere but these are all related to football.
Was just thinking this Henry. I'm a big fan of Hertzberg and think his theory can be applied to far more than wrokplace motivation.
We could fill that but as someone said earlier wouldn't be all Charlton fans, give me 17/18k proper fans over 35k any day.
It's the so called proper fans that put me off going these days. In the heady Prem days when the stands were packed the old moaners were not as noticeable. But these days wherever you sit you're never more than a few feet away from some miserable old git moaning and groaning. "Get 'im off" "XXXX! You're rubbish" "Powell/Parky/Pardew! You're useless!" Then the whole place lets out an exasperated sigh once the first pass goes astray. Going to football to me is a pastime that is supposed to be enjoyed but it seems to me many just go to let off steam and revel in poor performances.
Although I don't disagree with what you've said, I think them moany fans, which of course are many of our fans only moan because they care. I personally would rather that than have fans scrolling down their programme trying to work out what colour kit we play in, or the fans that come to watch the big names for the opposition!
Once again, take the aesthetic quality and results out of the equation...separate drivers and clubs (like Charlton in the 90s) have increased gates year on year on year without getting promoted. Bringing people in for a fiver amd then asking them to queue for half hour for a pint is a waste of time! I could go on but will instead raise at the next Trust meeting as to how we will construct a dialogue and plan capturing the ideas raised on this thread. To this end I would love to hear from Henry, Airman about how it worked before and am down to have a pint with someone else from the 90s era. The irony is that many other clubs are copying the "Charlton model" so perhaps time to reinvent...
And yes 35,000 is possible given the place was sold out less than 10 years ago
We try our best to get more fans in doing cheap deals etc.
Trouble is we always seem to throw in our worse performances of the season when its "Kids for a Quid" etc so no-one is going to turn up and pay £25 for something which could be rubbish when the top teams are on telly.
Maybe having a 4th stand might help our cause as well.
At least you should are more attractive than Millwall to any potential local supporter.
Hygenie factors (easy parking, clean toilets, nice cake) won't in themselves make you go to a NT property (and I am a member) but the lack of the same will put some people off. Same with going to football.
Motivation factors (interesting building, special exhibition, nice gardens) will make you go. Same with football ie team doing well, attractive opposition, crunch game, good value tickets, good atmosphere but these are all related to football.
Was just thinking this Henry. I'm a big fan of Hertzberg and think his theory can be applied to far more than wrokplace motivation.
That would have been so much more impressive if your spell check hadn't added the 't' in Herzberg!
However I'm not sure he can be used in this instance as he clearly defines the different drivers where as in football I think they overlap much more.
For some the result is everything, for some a good game is important. There are also external elements like the weather but mainly the opposition. The perception of what is acceptable is, often, determined by the opposition. A draw against Man Utd, especially if we equalise late on, might be a much greater motivator to return than beating MK Dons 5-1!
I do not think that we could regularly achieve gates of 40,000. There are a whole host of reasons ( practically all of which are touched on above, including competition from both other teams and alternative leisure pursuits and the influence of Sky ) but I think that not being on the tube network is a further factor. As a result, people from other parts of London tend to regard South London as a strange and distant land - an impression likely to be fortified if they have the misfortune to alight at New Cross Gate.
I do not think that we could regularly achieve gates of 40,000. There are a whole host of reasons ( practically all of which are touched on above, including competition from both other teams and alternative leisure pursuits and the influence of Sky ) but I think that not being on the tube network is a further factor. As a result, people from other parts of London tend to regard South London as a strange and distant land - an impression likely to be fortified if they have the misfortune to alight at New Cross Gate.
To be fair you only have to get to North Greenwich on the tube, then a 10 minute bus ride (direct from the station), so not exactly a trek....
Got to love CL. Only here could we be using Herzberg's motivational theory to dissect the opportunities to raise attendance at the Valley. Next we'll be discussing how to get go from the physiological needs to self actualization..... or something like that.
Hygenie factors (easy parking, clean toilets, nice cake) won't in themselves make you go to a NT property (and I am a member) but the lack of the same will put some people off. Same with going to football.
Motivation factors (interesting building, special exhibition, nice gardens) will make you go. Same with football ie team doing well, attractive opposition, crunch game, good value tickets, good atmosphere but these are all related to football.
Was just thinking this Henry. I'm a big fan of Hertzberg and think his theory can be applied to far more than wrokplace motivation.
That would have been so much more impressive if your spell check hadn't added the 't' in Herzberg!
It would have been so much more impressive too if I hadn't mentioned "wrokplace" motivation. The dangers of drink-posting.
Got to love CL. Only here could we be using Herzberg's motivational theory to dissect the opportunities to raise attendance at the Valley. Next we'll be discussing how to get go from the physiological needs to self actualization..... or something like that.
How about the role of existentialism in our performances at The Valley? After all, Albert Camus was a goalkeeper for the Algerian national team.
Comments
- Get in the Premiership and stay in the Premiership.
- Develop the ground (if it can be done post-Landsdowne).
- Find a way of getting local (and not so local) people to associate with the club rather than the pixelated tv clubs of Skysportland.
- More flexibility in seating so that bigger teams can bring more away fans.
- Provide match day experience that is overwhelmingly positive. Winning matches and playing attractive football are key to this, but there's more to it as well.
- Providing hope that we can win something - cup runs.
The demographics will only change as and when forces come together to increase the gate with new/lapsed fans year on year irrespective of performance on the pitch
Alternative we could focus on cornering the market in flasks, blankets and SAGA holidays and Insurance?!
I'm back in my usual seat in the Lower North. Last season, during those utterly pitiful midfield collapses when Pritchard and Stephens were routinely brushed aside, I leapt up and gave it some grief, waving my arms at them, and Powell, and the whole coaching regime. And the chap sitting next to me, a fellow sixty-year-old season ticket holder, was blithely chatting to his neighbour about her caravan at Camber Sands.
I might do something like that if I was invited to go with friends - for the company rather than the sightseeing.
Making football stadia nicer places for children helps, making it easier to buy tickets helps, making the concerns about food helps, but these things only help. Even with a free ticket, free Valley Express and a free meal many would turn it down.
Out of interest, when I was working full time I used to get offered free tickets (and travel, food, drink, the lot) for Premier League games. I could have gone to a different game every week if I'd wanted to. Including Man Utd, with an overnight in a hotel, but I almost never went to any of them. I think I did four in three years and they were all Charlton away games. Despite the match day experience (which would have cost best part of a grand all in, had I been paying) I didn't want to go.
Promotions help, but the football has to be what makes people want to come back. The truth is that, outside of the promotion cheap tickets, football is more expensive to attend than almost any other leisure activity (excluding the exceptional events). If the football is not enough then why not go to the cinema, or out for a nice meal, or visit a National Trust property?
Hygenie factors (easy parking, clean toilets, nice cake) won't in themselves make you go to a NT property (and I am a member) but the lack of the same will put some people off. Same with going to football.
Motivation factors (interesting building, special exhibition, nice gardens) will make you go. Same with football ie team doing well, attractive opposition, crunch game, good value tickets, good atmosphere but these are all related to football.
Remember also, we are aiming at a very small percentage of a very large audience, so just because a lot of people will turn down offers, its not a good reason to not make the offer in the first place (but you should find out why they turned it down). So, why didn't you go to those prem matches? ;-)
Then the whole place lets out an exasperated sigh once the first pass goes astray.
Going to football to me is a pastime that is supposed to be enjoyed but it seems to me many just go to let off steam and revel in poor performances.
Bringing people in for a fiver amd then asking them to queue for half hour for a pint is a waste of time!
I could go on but will instead raise at the next Trust meeting as to how we will construct a dialogue and plan capturing the ideas raised on this thread.
To this end I would love to hear from Henry, Airman about how it worked before and am down to have a pint with someone else from the 90s era.
The irony is that many other clubs are copying the "Charlton model" so perhaps time to reinvent...
And yes 35,000 is possible given the place was sold out less than 10 years ago
Trouble is we always seem to throw in our worse performances of the season when its "Kids for a Quid" etc so no-one is going to turn up and pay £25 for something which could be rubbish when the top teams are on telly.
Maybe having a 4th stand might help our cause as well.
At least you should are more attractive than Millwall to any potential local supporter.
However I'm not sure he can be used in this instance as he clearly defines the different drivers where as in football I think they overlap much more.
For some the result is everything, for some a good game is important. There are also external elements like the weather but mainly the opposition. The perception of what is acceptable is, often, determined by the opposition. A draw against Man Utd, especially if we equalise late on, might be a much greater motivator to return than beating MK Dons 5-1!