I think the referendum, while divisive in the short term, will be good in the long term. If the vote is a yes then they can get on with being independent, if it's a no, and the OPs currently suggest that it will be, then it effectively kills the debate dead and the politicians can get on with running the country.
If that were true, it might be worth the sacrifice of a year's debate and division. I don't know if "no means no" for the SNP. It will certainly deal with the issue for a couple of years but I have no doubt that teher will eb a push for Devo max pretty quickly and in five years time another teh campaign will start again. Quebec has had two referendums and the issue won't go away.
Probably depends on the actual outcome - if No can achieve 50% of the electorate (ie total entitled to vote, rather than total who actually do vote), then I would really hope that would put it to bed for a generation. Incidentally, the polls at the moment are predicting a 75% - 80% turnout, much higher than normal elections. I think there is actually legislation which says a vote can only take place once every 25 years on this, but I am not entirely sure of that, and the SNP could always change it anyway.
I just hope the ongoing "debates" in the meantime do not become even more nasty...
I think the referendum, while divisive in the short term, will be good in the long term. If the vote is a yes then they can get on with being independent, if it's a no, and the OPs currently suggest that it will be, then it effectively kills the debate dead and the politicians can get on with running the country.
If that were true, it might be worth the sacrifice of a year's debate and division. I don't know if "no means no" for the SNP. It will certainly deal with the issue for a couple of years but I have no doubt that teher will eb a push for Devo max pretty quickly and in five years time another teh campaign will start again. Quebec has had two referendums and the issue won't go away.
Australia had their republic referendum in 1999 and there hasn't been another vote since or any planned
Independent from what exactly? The population of the UK is 63.2 million, NI is 1.8m, Scotland 5.2m, Wales 3m, leaving England with 53m.
So who are those 53m gaining independence from? Breaking England down by region, only the East Midland, Yorkshire/Humber and the North East are smaller than Scotland. So UK by region looks like this:
South East - 8,634,750 Greater London - 8,173,941 North West - 7,052,177 East - 5,846,965 West Midlands - 5,601,847 South West - 5,288,935 Scotland 5,295,000 Yorkshire and the Humber - 5,283,733 East Midlands - 4,533,222 Wales - 3,063,456 North East - 2,596,886 Northern Ireland - 1,810,863
the thing about scottish independence is the same as about whether the uk withdraws from the eu. geographically we are connected. scotland being independent or uk out of europe will not mean that we float half way round the world and start a new life. we will still be neighbours and will have deal with what that means, still trade, still be in security and defence agreements, still be linked together economically, and many other things. both salmond and forage and their followers live in an imaginary world where we will be truly independent. we will all still have to have shared legislation, much like we do now, to survive. and forage argument about trading around the world, we already do. that's why we have bits of american and chinese legislation (for example) built into ours.
the reality is if scotland go independent, or uk leave eu will mean that all we are doing is putting the uk at the bottom of the pile when it comes to making decisions, but whatever decisions are made we will have to abide by.
all this is based around the view that there is an 'us and them' view. in my mind there is only 'us' and we should work together.
Sorry mate but that is a load of rubbish.
The EU already dictates rules and regulations and we don't get much of a say. Unless we force powers back to the UK or leave the EU altogether (which is what I think we should do) then we can make our own decisions. Switzerland are coping well and has one of the strongest economies throughout Europe.
Scotland has its own parliament and the Scottish MP's can vote what is best for Scotland. If the Scots gain independence the SNP's plan is to further integrate to the EU. Each MEP gets to vote on a change but if all Scottish MEP's vote for the same thing they can still lose the vote.
The EU already dictates rules and regulations and we don't get much of a say. Unless we force powers back to the UK or leave the EU altogether (which is what I think we should do) then we can make our own decisions. Switzerland are coping well and has one of the strongest economies throughout Europe.
Switzerland has a slight advantage in that their economy is based very heavily on banking - take that away and they would have nothing much other than chocolate and cuckoo clock making.
Ive lived up here for over twenty years and I cant get the maths.Five million people,take away the pensioners,children,the public sector,the unemployed,the unemployable,the benefit scroungers and the tax credit top up brigade.How many does that leave that actually pay full tax? Not many.Salmond is an odious ego trip with that bloody poisoned dwarf side kick Sturgeon are just after their bit of glory.A complete disaster for Scotland if they sneak it through!
the thing about scottish independence is the same as about whether the uk withdraws from the eu. geographically we are connected. scotland being independent or uk out of europe will not mean that we float half way round the world and start a new life. we will still be neighbours and will have deal with what that means, still trade, still be in security and defence agreements, still be linked together economically, and many other things. both salmond and forage and their followers live in an imaginary world where we will be truly independent. we will all still have to have shared legislation, much like we do now, to survive. and forage argument about trading around the world, we already do. that's why we have bits of american and chinese legislation (for example) built into ours.
the reality is if scotland go independent, or uk leave eu will mean that all we are doing is putting the uk at the bottom of the pile when it comes to making decisions, but whatever decisions are made we will have to abide by.
all this is based around the view that there is an 'us and them' view. in my mind there is only 'us' and we should work together.
Sorry mate but that is a load of rubbish.
The EU already dictates rules and regulations and we don't get much of a say. Unless we force powers back to the UK or leave the EU altogether (which is what I think we should do) then we can make our own decisions. Switzerland are coping well and has one of the strongest economies throughout Europe.
Scotland has its own parliament and the Scottish MP's can vote what is best for Scotland. If the Scots gain independence the SNP's plan is to further integrate to the EU. Each MEP gets to vote on a change but if all Scottish MEP's vote for the same thing they can still lose the vote.
Not exactly an independence campaign is it?
Sorry mate that is a load of rubbish !
You say the eu dictates rules and regulations and we don't get much say ? Who do you think these eu rule makers are made up from exactly ? Russians ? Yanks ? Martians ? No they are made up of representative elected and appointed by the member states. The fact that the uk government doesn't like some of those "rules and regulations" is I am afraid tough and in many cases a damn good thing too. Also, comparing the UK to Switzerland to use a footballing analogy is like comparing Barca with Welling Utd. What would be right for one might be terrible for the other.
the thing about scottish independence is the same as about whether the uk withdraws from the eu. geographically we are connected. scotland being independent or uk out of europe will not mean that we float half way round the world and start a new life. we will still be neighbours and will have deal with what that means, still trade, still be in security and defence agreements, still be linked together economically, and many other things. both salmond and forage and their followers live in an imaginary world where we will be truly independent. we will all still have to have shared legislation, much like we do now, to survive. and forage argument about trading around the world, we already do. that's why we have bits of american and chinese legislation (for example) built into ours.
the reality is if scotland go independent, or uk leave eu will mean that all we are doing is putting the uk at the bottom of the pile when it comes to making decisions, but whatever decisions are made we will have to abide by.
all this is based around the view that there is an 'us and them' view. in my mind there is only 'us' and we should work together.
Sorry mate but that is a load of rubbish.
The EU already dictates rules and regulations and we don't get much of a say. Unless we force powers back to the UK or leave the EU altogether (which is what I think we should do) then we can make our own decisions. Switzerland are coping well and has one of the strongest economies throughout Europe.
Scotland has its own parliament and the Scottish MP's can vote what is best for Scotland. If the Scots gain independence the SNP's plan is to further integrate to the EU. Each MEP gets to vote on a change but if all Scottish MEP's vote for the same thing they can still lose the vote.
Not exactly an independence campaign is it?
Sorry mate that is a load of rubbish !
You say the eu dictates rules and regulations and we don't get much say ? Who do you think these eu rule makers are made up from exactly ? Russians ? Yanks ? Martians ? No they are made up of representative elected and appointed by the member states. The fact that the uk government doesn't like some of those "rules and regulations" is I am afraid tough and in many cases a damn good thing too. Also, comparing the UK to Switzerland to use a footballing analogy is like comparing Barca with Welling Utd. What would be right for one might be terrible for the other.
I'm talking about un-elected presidents like Van Rompoy and Barroso, none of these were chosen by the people's of Europe. They want to achieve a United States of Europe, no matter what happens to Countries like Greece.
I am very suprised you are happy for the EU making decisions that would dislike us. What examples did the EU make that the British dislike that was a good thing in your eyes?
As for Switzerland, funny you should say that. I remember a previous French president once said "If the British can't accept the direction the EU is going then they will have to be relegated to the status of a Country like Switzerland"
The EU already dictates rules and regulations and we don't get much of a say. Unless we force powers back to the UK or leave the EU altogether (which is what I think we should do) then we can make our own decisions. Switzerland are coping well and has one of the strongest economies throughout Europe.
Switzerland has a slight advantage in that their economy is based very heavily on banking - take that away and they would have nothing much other than chocolate and cuckoo clock making.
And they have their own currency and economy they can control and can make trade deals with whoever they like!
Using Switzerland as an example is spurious at best. The only reason they exist as a country is because they allow themselves to be used as the world's biggest money-laundering operation.
The EU already dictates rules and regulations and we don't get much of a say. Unless we force powers back to the UK or leave the EU altogether (which is what I think we should do) then we can make our own decisions. Switzerland are coping well and has one of the strongest economies throughout Europe.
Switzerland has a slight advantage in that their economy is based very heavily on banking - take that away and they would have nothing much other than chocolate and cuckoo clock making.
Switzerland's a poor example, lets look at Norway who's doing very well indeed!
And they have their own currency and economy they can control and can make trade deals with whoever they like!
As with Norway (and any other non-EU nations in Europe) they have to follow and apply all EU legislation, but they don't get a vote on it or have any influence in shaping legislation.
The EU already dictates rules and regulations and we don't get much of a say. Unless we force powers back to the UK or leave the EU altogether (which is what I think we should do) then we can make our own decisions. Switzerland are coping well and has one of the strongest economies throughout Europe.
Switzerland has a slight advantage in that their economy is based very heavily on banking - take that away and they would have nothing much other than chocolate and cuckoo clock making.
Switzerland's a poor example, lets look at Norway who's doing very well indeed!
...while the oil is still flowing. As soon as it stops, or slows they are fucked. There is a huge amount of state-subsidised/owned industry, and their welfare state is completely unsustainable without the cash flow from the oil industry.
And they have their own currency and economy they can control and can make trade deals with whoever they like!
As with Norway (and any other non-EU nations in Europe) they have to follow and apply all EU legislation, but they don't get a vote on it or have any influence in shaping legislation.
This
We'd be absolutely crazy to leave the EU and throw away the majority of our influence over our largest trading partners. Even more so when the EU is on the verge of signing the biggest ever free trade agreement with the US.
The point is Norway has been using much of the oil revenue to invest in income schemes I believe? Whereas we've just been spending it. When I say we I mean the British government.
The point is Norway has been using much of the oil revenue to invest in income schemes I believe? Whereas we've just been spending it. When I say we I mean the British government.
It's called a sovereign wealth fund - but bear in mind that Norway's population would comfortably fit into London. They don't have the same demands that we have in the UK.
...as would Scotland's - and thereby hangs much of the grouch that the SNP's opportunist self-serving middle managers utilise to provoke and manipulate their constituency ! ;0)
And they have their own currency and economy they can control and can make trade deals with whoever they like!
As with Norway (and any other non-EU nations in Europe) they have to follow and apply all EU legislation, but they don't get a vote on it or have any influence in shaping legislation.
This
We'd be absolutely crazy to leave the EU and throw away the majority of our influence over our largest trading partners. Even more so when the EU is on the verge of signing the biggest ever free trade agreement with the US.
If we left the EU, trading within Europe will still continue. They sell us far more goods than we sell them, so the EU would be crazy if we left the EU.
And they have their own currency and economy they can control and can make trade deals with whoever they like!
As with Norway (and any other non-EU nations in Europe) they have to follow and apply all EU legislation, but they don't get a vote on it or have any influence in shaping legislation.
This
We'd be absolutely crazy to leave the EU and throw away the majority of our influence over our largest trading partners. Even more so when the EU is on the verge of signing the biggest ever free trade agreement with the US.
If we left the EU, trading within Europe will still continue. They sell us far more goods than we sell them, so the EU would be crazy if we left the EU.
And we will have absolutely no say in anything that the EU who you admit will still be trading partners decide to do. As the old saying goes. We will be far better off on the inside pissing out than on the outside pissing in.
Sure our 63 million souls would be missed, but they would still have 440 million people to sell stuff to Disco. They can probably buy more or less anything they need from other EU states, and they can just fast track Turkey's 73 odd million into the club, if it's just bodies to flog stuff to they are after...
Whilst I don't think for one minute that a UK withdrawal from the EU would prevent trade between the UK and member states - too many vested interests on both sides to allow that to happen - it might make things more difficult, and it will ALWAYS end up costing the man on the street more.
As for following EU rules, the UK and other members only ever follow the ones the respective governments want to. They tell you "It's the EU" because it suits them to have you believe that.
Comments
I just hope the ongoing "debates" in the meantime do not become even more nasty...
"The bread isn't brown - it's multicultural!"
"and what a lovely old racist she is!"
I'm glad you did to, it brightened up an otherwise poxy morning.
So who are those 53m gaining independence from? Breaking England down by region, only the East Midland, Yorkshire/Humber and the North East are smaller than Scotland. So UK by region looks like this:
South East - 8,634,750
Greater London - 8,173,941
North West - 7,052,177
East - 5,846,965
West Midlands - 5,601,847
South West - 5,288,935
Scotland 5,295,000
Yorkshire and the Humber - 5,283,733
East Midlands - 4,533,222
Wales - 3,063,456
North East - 2,596,886
Northern Ireland - 1,810,863
Scotland - 5,295,000
6,000 difference. Who would win in a fight?
The EU already dictates rules and regulations and we don't get much of a say. Unless we force powers back to the UK or leave the EU altogether (which is what I think we should do) then we can make our own decisions. Switzerland are coping well and has one of the strongest economies throughout Europe.
Scotland has its own parliament and the Scottish MP's can vote what is best for Scotland. If the Scots gain independence the SNP's plan is to further integrate to the EU. Each MEP gets to vote on a change but if all Scottish MEP's vote for the same thing they can still lose the vote.
Not exactly an independence campaign is it?
Switzerland has a slight advantage in that their economy is based very heavily on banking - take that away and they would have nothing much other than chocolate and cuckoo clock making.
All sounds a bit fishy to me.
You say the eu dictates rules and regulations and we don't get much say ? Who do you think these eu rule makers are made up from exactly ? Russians ? Yanks ? Martians ? No they are made up of representative elected and appointed by the member states. The fact that the uk government doesn't like some of those "rules and regulations" is I am afraid tough and in many cases a damn good thing too. Also, comparing the UK to Switzerland to use a footballing analogy is like comparing Barca with Welling Utd. What would be right for one might be terrible for the other.
I am very suprised you are happy for the EU making decisions that would dislike us. What examples did the EU make that the British dislike that was a good thing in your eyes?
As for Switzerland, funny you should say that. I remember a previous French president once said "If the British can't accept the direction the EU is going then they will have to be relegated to the status of a Country like Switzerland"
As with Norway (and any other non-EU nations in Europe) they have to follow and apply all EU legislation, but they don't get a vote on it or have any influence in shaping legislation.
The Swiss having banking, the Norwegians oil.
We'd be absolutely crazy to leave the EU and throw away the majority of our influence over our largest trading partners. Even more so when the EU is on the verge of signing the biggest ever free trade agreement with the US.
It's called a sovereign wealth fund - but bear in mind that Norway's population would comfortably fit into London. They don't have the same demands that we have in the UK.
Whilst I don't think for one minute that a UK withdrawal from the EU would prevent trade between the UK and member states - too many vested interests on both sides to allow that to happen - it might make things more difficult, and it will ALWAYS end up costing the man on the street more.
As for following EU rules, the UK and other members only ever follow the ones the respective governments want to. They tell you "It's the EU" because it suits them to have you believe that.