Labour wanted devolution for England ---its called regionalisation....why was devolution so anti English.
So Labour wanted devolution for England...and yet devolution was anti-English?
The Labour plan was for a series of nine regional assemblies for England - of which only the London Assembly/London mayor survived as it was set up under a different item of legislation to the rest and a referendum on whether London should have a mayor and an assembly received a majority of votes. One referendum, in the North East, was held to test market the idea of whether the idea would be supported outside of London and the vote was a resounding no. So the idea of regional assemblies (other than London etc) was scrapped.
Quite how Labour were so anti-English when they proposed and started setting up regional assemblies is beyond me but whatever. The London parliament also exercises a disproportionate amount of influence over Scotland, NI and Wales as well, so allowing those regions to have more of a say in their affairs is democratic. The flip-side is that MPs from those regions can vote on legislation affecting the whole of the UK, but that's the way the system has evolved.
Labour wanted devolution for England ---its called regionalisation....why was devolution so anti English.
So Labour wanted devolution for England...and yet devolution was anti-English?
The Labour plan was for a series of nine regional assemblies for England - of which only the London Assembly/London mayor survived as it was set up under a different item of legislation to the rest and a referendum on whether London should have a mayor and an assembly received a majority of votes. One referendum, in the North East, was held to test market the idea of whether the idea would be supported outside of London and the vote was a resounding no. So the idea of regional assemblies (other than London etc) was scrapped.
Quite how Labour were so anti-English when they proposed and started setting up regional assemblies is beyond me but whatever. The London parliament also exercises a disproportionate amount of influence over Scotland, NI and Wales as well, so allowing those regions to have more of a say in their affairs is democratic. The flip-side is that MPs from those regions can vote on legislation affecting the whole of the UK, but that's the way the system has evolved.
Not sure using reason and logic is going to work here BFR.
Well, apart from two or three of the usual suspects, I am quite encouraged by most of the comments on this thread. Was dreading opening it to find loads of "good riddance" and "if that's what they want" drivel. Instead pleased to see that many value the Union, appreciate that we are all better together and also understand that the polls show a majority in Scotland against independence.
I grew up in Belvedere with a Scottish Dad and English Mum. Dad fought in the Second World War and hated anything to do with nationalism of any sort. After getting married, I moved to Scotland in the early 90s. Despite living here for 20 years now, I still have an obvious English accent. At times I can be over-sensitive to perceived "racism" because of this - though have come to realise that most of the time if a taxi driver is particularly grumpy, it is probably just because he is grumpy rather than anything to do with my accent! Generally love it here as a place to live and work. The worst thing at the moment is that the independence debate is dominating everything - not a day goes by without it being in the news - and we still have 15 months of this to go. It is already affecting business - we run a travel company selling holidays in Scotland. Two yeas ago, English people were 75% of our customers, now that is only just over 50% - fortunately for us overseas markets are filling the gap (but that is the kind of thing Salmond would like to happen). Companies such as Kwik-Fit, Heineken (formerly Scottish and Newcastle) and even RBS have cut lots of jobs in Scotland and moved many head office and marketing functions down South - little of that gets reported. As others have said, Salmond is a savvy politician and intelligent man - never underestimate him. Fortunately at the moment, he is showing his arrogance and craving for power - his true colours. But he will do his best to turn the referendum into a mini election - positioning it as a way to get rid of the Tories in Westminster. I also do not underestimate the possibility that the Tories and UKIP will do stupid things eg the EU vote that play into Salmond's hands. If the SNP get desperate, then there is also the chance of more overt anti-English racism, especially as some of their core support is among underemployed young men in the cities.
In truth I find the whole situation quite depressing - it is divisive in itself. I am hoping and praying for a landslide No vote that forces Salmond to slink off into retirement and causes the break-up of the SNP...a long time to wait yet, though.
Both sides of the argument, whilst failing to agree exactly on what Scotland receives from Westminster and what it gives in taxes, fail to appreciate that Scotland has a number of social ills that will burden its middle classes through increased taxation if independence is acheived.
In Western Europe, Scotland has the highest proportions for everything including teenage pregnancy, heart disease, heroin addiction, murder - indeed find a league table on pretty much any social ill and Scotland will invariably top it.
11% of it's population claim disability benefits and the gap between rich and poor is bigger than anywhere else. I think I read somewhere that as few as 300 of its citizens control about 70% of the wealth - in a country of five million. This is not about throwing stones, just recognising the fact that in the grips of an economic downturn, Scotland could well be thrown into chaos by over-burdening it's working population in having to maintain a large bureaucracy.
That said, on a personal level, any Scot I know is thoroughly opposed to independence.
If England dosnt have a Parliament but exists of X amount of reginal assemblies then its being split up ---no ENGLAND cant see that ? or dont want to see it ?
How about the regional flags being flown by Councils ? that isnt happening ?
Keeping things topical---yes Orwell on how the Left is anti English---but of course the fact that one of the lefts great heroes admits it and highlights it ----well lets have a nice bit of deflection------what next from the Guardiainistas on here ? oooooooooooo of course it will be the scream of racism or the direct insult ?
It is already affecting business - we run a travel company selling holidays in Scotland. Two yeas ago, English people were 75% of our customers, now that is only just over 50% - fortunately for us overseas markets are filling the gap (but that is the kind of thing Salmond would like to happen).
Well, apart from two or three of the usual suspects, I am quite encouraged by most of the comments on this thread. Was dreading opening it to find loads of "good riddance" and "if that's what they want" drivel. Instead pleased to see that many value the Union, appreciate that we are all better together and also understand that the polls show a majority in Scotland against independence.
I grew up in Belvedere with a Scottish Dad and English Mum. Dad fought in the Second World War and hated anything to do with nationalism of any sort. After getting married, I moved to Scotland in the early 90s. Despite living here for 20 years now, I still have an obvious English accent. At times I can be over-sensitive to perceived "racism" because of this - though have come to realise that most of the time if a taxi driver is particularly grumpy, it is probably just because he is grumpy rather than anything to do with my accent! Generally love it here as a place to live and work. The worst thing at the moment is that the independence debate is dominating everything - not a day goes by without it being in the news - and we still have 15 months of this to go. It is already affecting business - we run a travel company selling holidays in Scotland. Two yeas ago, English people were 75% of our customers, now that is only just over 50% - fortunately for us overseas markets are filling the gap (but that is the kind of thing Salmond would like to happen). Companies such as Kwik-Fit, Heineken (formerly Scottish and Newcastle) and even RBS have cut lots of jobs in Scotland and moved many head office and marketing functions down South - little of that gets reported. As others have said, Salmond is a savvy politician and intelligent man - never underestimate him. Fortunately at the moment, he is showing his arrogance and craving for power - his true colours. But he will do his best to turn the referendum into a mini election - positioning it as a way to get rid of the Tories in Westminster. I also do not underestimate the possibility that the Tories and UKIP will do stupid things eg the EU vote that play into Salmond's hands. If the SNP get desperate, then there is also the chance of more overt anti-English racism, especially as some of their core support is among underemployed young men in the cities.
In truth I find the whole situation quite depressing - it is divisive in itself. I am hoping and praying for a landslide No vote that forces Salmond to slink off into retirement and causes the break-up of the SNP...a long time to wait yet, though.
Good very interesting post Weegie - The Tories and Ukip will try to play the EU card to gain what they believe is popular with the electorate. What is the level of support in Scotland for independence? My contact in Scotland thinks about 3 to 1 against.
Okay I'll bite. So direct insults such as [left wingers] "should all be burnt and used as cat litter" are fine as long as they come from you GH, but other people are not permitted to do that back to you? Even before they have done it?
I love the idea that a reference to one sixty year old quote that actually uses the word "trend" is relevant today.
If England dosnt have a Parliament but exists of X amount of reginal assemblies then its being split up ---no ENGLAND cant see that ? or dont want to see it ?
How about the regional flags being flown by Councils ? that isnt happening ?
Keeping things topical---yes Orwell on how the Left is anti English---but of course the fact that one of the lefts great heroes admits it and highlights it ----well lets have a nice bit of deflection------what next from the Guardiainistas on here ? oooooooooooo of course it will be the scream of racism or the direct insult ?
George Orwell died in 1950 - and you are being topical?
@AFKABartram - re the visitors, there is evidence beyond our little business to show that English visitor numbers are down, but nothing specific about the reason - could be economic, people staying closer to home in England or choosing to go abroad for the sun. Anecdotally some are worried that they won't be welcome in Scotland. The SNP making next year a celebration of the 700th anniversary of the Scots defeating the English at Bannockburn doesn't help. It could be v damaging in the long-term if people perceive they aren't welcome - though I don't feel it is true. (Look at the issues the Welsh still have with that perception in some places, though burning holiday cottages was maybe a bit extreme...)
@JohnfromNorfolk - the polls generally show about 30% in favour, about 45-50% against and the rest undecided - SNP will focus on swinging those, and hope that enough "No" voters stay at home. The SNP dominate the Yes campaign (with support from the Greens and Scottish Socialists), and they have a well-run, grass-roots and professional set-up. Conversely, the No campaign is in the hands of "Better Together", a single issue coalition of Labour, Tories and Lib Dems - so you can imagine the cracks in that - already Labour have announced "United with Labour" led by Gordon Brown. Most of the politicos are looking more to the 2015 General Election and their own power-bases. In my ideal world, the No campaign would be far less political, and run on the basis of "Alex Salmond v the will of the people of Scotland". He already has dictatorial tendencies, so why not point this out a bit more overtly? But then they haven't appointed me as campaign strategist (yet)...
SHG Labour wanted devolution for England ---its called regionalisation. Not some figment of the Daily Mail. As told to me on my own door step by the labour MP for Eltham 2 years ago when he knocked onmy door on St Georges Day !!!! After i asked hoim and his minions where their roses were etc and why was devolution so anti English.
weeks back Boris stated he wanted London to be devolved in the same manner as Scotland etc.
The hatred shown by the left + Labour for anything English is well known--their contempt shines out even on this board
Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean we're all out to get you.
the thing about scottish independence is the same as about whether the uk withdraws from the eu. geographically we are connected. scotland being independent or uk out of europe will not mean that we float half way round the world and start a new life. we will still be neighbours and will have deal with what that means, still trade, still be in security and defence agreements, still be linked together economically, and many other things. both salmond and forage and their followers live in an imaginary world where we will be truly independent. we will all still have to have shared legislation, much like we do now, to survive. and forage argument about trading around the world, we already do. that's why we have bits of american and chinese legislation (for example) built into ours.
the reality is if scotland go independent, or uk leave eu will mean that all we are doing is putting the uk at the bottom of the pile when it comes to making decisions, but whatever decisions are made we will have to abide by.
all this is based around the view that there is an 'us and them' view. in my mind there is only 'us' and we should work together.
Farage isn't claiming we can't trade internationally, it is the current view that leaving the EU will stop us trading with Europe that he is against. But that's for another thread.
This is an interesting debate. All of the people I know who live in Scotland are against independence (they are a mixture of English and Scottish... but all get to vote), but I hope there isn't complacency in the No vote. The union is better with Scotland part of it.
In this day and age- with the European Community, it seems like a pointless Aspiration. Understandable if the Scots were being oppressed, but they benefit financially from being part of the Union. Salmond says they don’t but his arguments are always very one sided – neglecting the negatives. I suppose it is easy to blame somebody else for your problems – which is why UKIP are doing so well. But whilst there is significant support for independence from England and within Britain from Europe- the arguments don’t stand up to scrutiny, and there are enough sensible people to realise that. If you focus on the cons, you must never forget the pros.
Honestly don't see much changing even if Scotland move towards independence, they're still going to be massively linked to the rest of the UK for trade and currency.
Find it funny how the left are apparently 'anti-England', just because they don't want to build a 20ft wall around the country and don't irrationally hate foreigners, they're hating on their own country.
It's a process the Scots need to go through. To be honest, if Scottish independence benefited England I'd be all for it. However, let the Scots have their day and have their say and then it will be buried for a couple more decades. I don't have a problem with the process and think it will all end up status quo.
Are the SNP still angling for a "max devolution" option? Ive not really been following it, but that's probably what they most want. As far as I remember the Tories put a stop to it
Ive lived up here for over twenty years and I cant get the maths.Five million people,take away the pensioners,children,the public sector,the unemployed,the unemployable,the benefit scroungers and the tax credit top up brigade.How many does that leave that actually pay full tax? Not many.Salmond is an odious ego trip with that bloody poisoned dwarf side kick Sturgeon are just after their bit of glory.A complete disaster for Scotland if they sneak it through!
I think it's reached the point where there needs to be a (hopefully) amicable split. Plainly the independence date is dominating political discourse in Scotland. They need to be spending less time defining their identity relationship with England and more on governing the country for the benefit of its population. Even after the vote, these matters will still dominate.
I also think it will benefit the English as therte is growing resentment on this side of the border at being always painted as the oppressor.
The divorce will be messy and sad - they always are but it's better than struggling on in a loveless marriage.
I think it's reached the point where there needs to be a (hopefully) amicable split. Plainly the independence date is dominating political discourse in Scotland. They need to be spending less time defining their identity relationship with England and more on governing the country for the benefit of its population. Even after the vote, these matters will still dominate.
I also think it will benefit the English as therte is growing resentment on this side of the border at being always painted as the oppressor.
The divorce will be messy and sad - they always are but it's better than struggling on in a loveless marriage.
It isn't loveless though is it ? In the main, most people on here seem to want the union to endure and that also seems to be the message from the Scottish opinion polls.
Are the SNP still angling for a "max devolution" option? Ive not really been following it, but that's probably what they most want. As far as I remember the Tories put a stop to it
Originally the SNP wanted there options - remain as is, devolution max, full independence.
The Tories said "no way" and forced the question to be straight in or out question. Since the polls have gone against him Salmond has watered down his version of "independence" so much that I now struggle to see the difference between it and the original devolution max other than Scotland will have it's own army (god knows how this will be used or funded) under independence.
Anyone else remember the TV series "Scotch on the Rocks" about the Scottish Liberation Army?
Was early 70s I think. Never seen it repeated.
The SNLA (I.e four or five blokes who have watched Braveheart one too many times) were active a few years back. I think they sent suspicious packages to politicians and planned to poison a water supply or something. The main protagonist fled to Dublin and was promptly arrested under an EU warrant and is currently doing time I believe.
Are the SNP still angling for a "max devolution" option? Ive not really been following it, but that's probably what they most want. As far as I remember the Tories put a stop to it
Fortunately they did - the idea was to have the "devo max" option on the ballot alongside a yes and no choice, but that was killed off. As far as I know the voters have a straight choice.
Should Scotland be an independent country? Yes or No
Salmond has tried his best to gerrymander things with extending the vote to 16/17 years and anyone who lives in Scotland - ie including foreign nationals who cannot normally vote in UK general elections.
I think it's reached the point where there needs to be a (hopefully) amicable split. Plainly the independence date is dominating political discourse in Scotland. They need to be spending less time defining their identity relationship with England and more on governing the country for the benefit of its population. Even after the vote, these matters will still dominate.
I think the referendum, while divisive in the short term, will be good in the long term. If the vote is a yes then they can get on with being independent, if it's a no, and the OPs currently suggest that it will be, then it effectively kills the debate dead and the politicians can get on with running the country.
Comments
Our language is so bloody good that most of the world use it!
;-)
So Labour wanted devolution for England...and yet devolution was anti-English?
The Labour plan was for a series of nine regional assemblies for England - of which only the London Assembly/London mayor survived as it was set up under a different item of legislation to the rest and a referendum on whether London should have a mayor and an assembly received a majority of votes. One referendum, in the North East, was held to test market the idea of whether the idea would be supported outside of London and the vote was a resounding no. So the idea of regional assemblies (other than London etc) was scrapped.
Quite how Labour were so anti-English when they proposed and started setting up regional assemblies is beyond me but whatever. The London parliament also exercises a disproportionate amount of influence over Scotland, NI and Wales as well, so allowing those regions to have more of a say in their affairs is democratic. The flip-side is that MPs from those regions can vote on legislation affecting the whole of the UK, but that's the way the system has evolved.
I grew up in Belvedere with a Scottish Dad and English Mum. Dad fought in the Second World War and hated anything to do with nationalism of any sort. After getting married, I moved to Scotland in the early 90s. Despite living here for 20 years now, I still have an obvious English accent. At times I can be over-sensitive to perceived "racism" because of this - though have come to realise that most of the time if a taxi driver is particularly grumpy, it is probably just because he is grumpy rather than anything to do with my accent! Generally love it here as a place to live and work. The worst thing at the moment is that the independence debate is dominating everything - not a day goes by without it being in the news - and we still have 15 months of this to go. It is already affecting business - we run a travel company selling holidays in Scotland. Two yeas ago, English people were 75% of our customers, now that is only just over 50% - fortunately for us overseas markets are filling the gap (but that is the kind of thing Salmond would like to happen). Companies such as Kwik-Fit, Heineken (formerly Scottish and Newcastle) and even RBS have cut lots of jobs in Scotland and moved many head office and marketing functions down South - little of that gets reported. As others have said, Salmond is a savvy politician and intelligent man - never underestimate him. Fortunately at the moment, he is showing his arrogance and craving for power - his true colours. But he will do his best to turn the referendum into a mini election - positioning it as a way to get rid of the Tories in Westminster. I also do not underestimate the possibility that the Tories and UKIP will do stupid things eg the EU vote that play into Salmond's hands. If the SNP get desperate, then there is also the chance of more overt anti-English racism, especially as some of their core support is among underemployed young men in the cities.
In truth I find the whole situation quite depressing - it is divisive in itself. I am hoping and praying for a landslide No vote that forces Salmond to slink off into retirement and causes the break-up of the SNP...a long time to wait yet, though.
:-)
In Western Europe, Scotland has the highest proportions for everything including teenage pregnancy, heart disease, heroin addiction, murder - indeed find a league table on pretty much any social ill and Scotland will invariably top it.
11% of it's population claim disability benefits and the gap between rich and poor is bigger than anywhere else. I think I read somewhere that as few as 300 of its citizens control about 70% of the wealth - in a country of five million. This is not about throwing stones, just recognising the fact that in the grips of an economic downturn, Scotland could well be thrown into chaos by over-burdening it's working population in having to maintain a large bureaucracy.
That said, on a personal level, any Scot I know is thoroughly opposed to independence.
How about the regional flags being flown by Councils ? that isnt happening ?
Keeping things topical---yes Orwell on how the Left is anti English---but of course the fact that one of the lefts great heroes admits it and highlights it ----well lets have a nice bit of deflection------what next from the Guardiainistas on here ? oooooooooooo of course it will be the scream of racism or the direct insult ?
Out of interest, do you really think the independence stuff is really having an impact on English visitors ?
What is the level of support in Scotland for independence? My contact in Scotland thinks about 3 to 1 against.
I love the idea that a reference to one sixty year old quote that actually uses the word "trend" is relevant today.
@JohnfromNorfolk - the polls generally show about 30% in favour, about 45-50% against and the rest undecided - SNP will focus on swinging those, and hope that enough "No" voters stay at home. The SNP dominate the Yes campaign (with support from the Greens and Scottish Socialists), and they have a well-run, grass-roots and professional set-up. Conversely, the No campaign is in the hands of "Better Together", a single issue coalition of Labour, Tories and Lib Dems - so you can imagine the cracks in that - already Labour have announced "United with Labour" led by Gordon Brown. Most of the politicos are looking more to the 2015 General Election and their own power-bases. In my ideal world, the No campaign would be far less political, and run on the basis of "Alex Salmond v the will of the people of Scotland". He already has dictatorial tendencies, so why not point this out a bit more overtly? But then they haven't appointed me as campaign strategist (yet)...
Find it funny how the left are apparently 'anti-England', just because they don't want to build a 20ft wall around the country and don't irrationally hate foreigners, they're hating on their own country.
Was early 70s I think. Never seen it repeated.
I also think it will benefit the English as therte is growing resentment on this side of the border at being always painted as the oppressor.
The divorce will be messy and sad - they always are but it's better than struggling on in a loveless marriage.
The Tories said "no way" and forced the question to be straight in or out question. Since the polls have gone against him Salmond has watered down his version of "independence" so much that I now struggle to see the difference between it and the original devolution max other than Scotland will have it's own army (god knows how this will be used or funded) under independence. The SNLA (I.e four or five blokes who have watched Braveheart one too many times) were active a few years back. I think they sent suspicious packages to politicians and planned to poison a water supply or something. The main protagonist fled to Dublin and was promptly arrested under an EU warrant and is currently doing time I believe.
Should Scotland be an independent country? Yes or No
Salmond has tried his best to gerrymander things with extending the vote to 16/17 years and anyone who lives in Scotland - ie including foreign nationals who cannot normally vote in UK general elections.