My main point was that our squad aren't ready and we don't seem to have the financial backing to improve the squad. To have been promoted this season would only have seen us relegated next.
Whats with all the aggression and disrespect you dudes?
No aggression or disrespect meant on my part . Apologies Dazzler if it came across like that.
My point is if we had won promotion today would anyone at the club or connected to the club, management, players, board, fans really be dreading august or would they be over the moon? Id be out on the sauce celebrating til the early hours rather than sitting here typing this for starters! ;-)
The longer we are out the top flight the more chance that the owners whoever they are at the time are likely to have a couple of gamble all or nothing seasons spending money we dont have to try and reach the top flight which is surely more detrimental to the long term stability of the club than finding yourself up there for 38 games with the big boys, paying your debts off, strenghtening the squad and every aspect of the club within our means whilst attracting better exponsure, sponsorship and general interest.
No brainer for me. As much as anyone i romanticise about the old days in the 2nd tier and how we were at our level but its proving harder and harder to be sustainable at that level without incurring huge and potentially fatal debts.
I don't see this as a season of consolidation but of stepping up a division and learning a few lessons. Bear in mind that most our squad and certainly most of the starting players this season were playing in L1 last year and at times we have struggled this season. Yesterday's concession of two late goals (again) demonstrates that we stil have avfew frailties - if teams like Middlesboro can do that to us what will have decent prem teams? This end of season form suggests that we can hack it at this level but another promotion would leave the club with too many players who would be outclassed if we got into the premiership too soon and premiership quality footballers cost big money.
I'd rather the club evolved and we brought through/acquired and trained up a few players who can be part of a promotion push over the next season or two and could do a job if/when we get promoted. If you look at the squad we had when we were last promoted to the premiership most of those players formed the core of the squad for several seasons and made the step up. Other than Solly, Wiggins and a couple of others I can't see that many players in this current team could live at that level.
You talk of "potentially fatal debts" - the 92 clubs in the football league/prem have a collective debt of £3.5bilion - I'll let you guess in which division the majority of that debt is to be found. Even Cardiff - £86m in debt are talking about spending £25m to have a squad ready to compete so if we get promoted and do it without breaking the bank then another yesr or two of improving will be better for us in the long term.
If we got promoted this season we'd be back in the CCC in a year, but with bigger debts and a club gutted of the character that CP has spent all this time building.
If i may paraphrase:- It is better to have been in the premiership and lost, than never to have been in the premiership at all!
I wonder if Pompey fans are thinking that way? A couple of seasons on and two relegations plus spells in and out of administration thanks to the unsustainable debts they acquired on the way...
Well at some point the board need to either find the money to push on or get out. Staying in this league is we know unsustainable and if the five year plan rumours were to be believed then next season demands investment on a quite significant scale otherwise we won't push on. This season was a monumental effort but without four or five better than we have players coming in then finishing top half would next season also be very creditable. This summer is going to tell us all we need to know about Messrs JIminez and Slater.
shoots how much money would you throw at a series push at promotion over next three years how much would it take didn't leicester lose 30 million lastyear
Whats with all the aggression and disrespect you dudes?
No aggression or disrespect meant on my part . Apologies Dazzler if it came across like that.
My point is if we had won promotion today would anyone at the club or connected to the club, management, players, board, fans really be dreading august or would they be over the moon? Id be out on the sauce celebrating til the early hours rather than sitting here typing this for starters! ;-)
The longer we are out the top flight the more chance that the owners whoever they are at the time are likely to have a couple of gamble all or nothing seasons spending money we dont have to try and reach the top flight which is surely more detrimental to the long term stability of the club than finding yourself up there for 38 games with the big boys, paying your debts off, strenghtening the squad and every aspect of the club within our means whilst attracting better exponsure, sponsorship and general interest.
No brainer for me. As much as anyone i romanticise about the old days in the 2nd tier and how we were at our level but its proving harder and harder to be sustainable at that level without incurring huge and potentially fatal debts.
I don't see this as a season of consolidation but of stepping up a division and learning a few lessons. Bear in mind that most our squad and certainly most of the starting players this season were playing in L1 last year and at times we have struggled this season. Yesterday's concession of two late goals (again) demonstrates that we stil have avfew frailties - if teams like Middlesboro can do that to us what will have decent prem teams? This end of season form suggests that we can hack it at this level but another promotion would leave the club with too many players who would be outclassed if we got into the premiership too soon and premiership quality footballers cost big money.
I'd rather the club evolved and we brought through/acquired and trained up a few players who can be part of a promotion push over the next season or two and could do a job if/when we get promoted. If you look at the squad we had when we were last promoted to the premiership most of those players formed the core of the squad for several seasons and made the step up. Other than Solly, Wiggins and a couple of others I can't see that many players in this current team could live at that level.
You talk of "potentially fatal debts" - the 92 clubs in the football league/prem have a collective debt of £3.5bilion - I'll let you guess in which division the majority of that debt is to be found. Even Cardiff - £86m in debt are talking about spending £25m to have a squad ready to compete so if we get promoted and do it without breaking the bank then another yesr or two of improving will be better for us in the long term.
If we got promoted this season we'd be back in the CCC in a year, but with bigger debts and a club gutted of the character that CP has spent all this time building.
Why? If the club had the nuts to tell us and the world at large that we are going to give it our best with the players we have, make those players (with one or two exceptions) realise that they are going to be playing way above their true level, and as such they will get a pay rise as a reward, but nothing like "Premiership" wages. Then explain that they will use the money to pay off the debts and put us back on an even keel, and accept that it is more than likely that we will end up with a record low points total and then drop back into a league where we were able to finish in the top six with those same players, what would we have lost?
Nothing, in my opinion. It is no different to the game plan adopted by clubs that are willing to sacrifice winning cups for fourth place in the league and the riches of the Champions League, it is just on a smaller scale.
Blackpool adopted a similar stance, and ended up doing themselves a power of good.
Whats with all the aggression and disrespect you dudes?
No aggression or disrespect meant on my part . Apologies Dazzler if it came across like that.
My point is if we had won promotion today would anyone at the club or connected to the club, management, players, board, fans really be dreading august or would they be over the moon? Id be out on the sauce celebrating til the early hours rather than sitting here typing this for starters! ;-)
The longer we are out the top flight the more chance that the owners whoever they are at the time are likely to have a couple of gamble all or nothing seasons spending money we dont have to try and reach the top flight which is surely more detrimental to the long term stability of the club than finding yourself up there for 38 games with the big boys, paying your debts off, strenghtening the squad and every aspect of the club within our means whilst attracting better exponsure, sponsorship and general interest.
No brainer for me. As much as anyone i romanticise about the old days in the 2nd tier and how we were at our level but its proving harder and harder to be sustainable at that level without incurring huge and potentially fatal debts.
I don't see this as a season of consolidation but of stepping up a division and learning a few lessons. Bear in mind that most our squad and certainly most of the starting players this season were playing in L1 last year and at times we have struggled this season. Yesterday's concession of two late goals (again) demonstrates that we stil have avfew frailties - if teams like Middlesboro can do that to us what will have decent prem teams? This end of season form suggests that we can hack it at this level but another promotion would leave the club with too many players who would be outclassed if we got into the premiership too soon and premiership quality footballers cost big money.
I'd rather the club evolved and we brought through/acquired and trained up a few players who can be part of a promotion push over the next season or two and could do a job if/when we get promoted. If you look at the squad we had when we were last promoted to the premiership most of those players formed the core of the squad for several seasons and made the step up. Other than Solly, Wiggins and a couple of others I can't see that many players in this current team could live at that level.
You talk of "potentially fatal debts" - the 92 clubs in the football league/prem have a collective debt of £3.5bilion - I'll let you guess in which division the majority of that debt is to be found. Even Cardiff - £86m in debt are talking about spending £25m to have a squad ready to compete so if we get promoted and do it without breaking the bank then another yesr or two of improving will be better for us in the long term.
If we got promoted this season we'd be back in the CCC in a year, but with bigger debts and a club gutted of the character that CP has spent all this time building.
Why? If the club had the nuts to tell us and the world at large that we are going to give it our best with the players we have, make those players (with one or two exceptions) realise that they are going to be playing way above their true level, and as such they will get a pay rise as a reward, but nothing like "Premiership" wages. Then explain that they will use the money to pay off the debts and put us back on an even keel, and accept that it is more than likely that we will end up with a record low points total and then drop back into a league where we were able to finish in the top six with those same players, what would we have lost?
Nothing, in my opinion. It is no different to the game plan adopted by clubs that are willing to sacrifice winning cups for fourth place in the league and the riches of the Champions League, it is just on a smaller scale.
Blackpool adopted a similar stance, and ended up doing themselves a power of good.
Blackpool adopted a similar stance, and ended up doing themselves a power of good. #
But again you have a team who under-invested on promotion, and kept a tight lid on expenses and unsurprisingly were one season wonders and are now in mid-division in the CCC, that doesn't look like progress to me. Still they avoided the sort of meltdowns that Portsmouth and Wolves have experienced.
In the meantime their chairman did take £11m out of the club when they were in the premiership, so someone did well out of it.
Whats with all the aggression and disrespect you dudes?
No aggression or disrespect meant on my part . Apologies Dazzler if it came across like that.
My point is if we had won promotion today would anyone at the club or connected to the club, management, players, board, fans really be dreading august or would they be over the moon? Id be out on the sauce celebrating til the early hours rather than sitting here typing this for starters! ;-)
The longer we are out the top flight the more chance that the owners whoever they are at the time are likely to have a couple of gamble all or nothing seasons spending money we dont have to try and reach the top flight which is surely more detrimental to the long term stability of the club than finding yourself up there for 38 games with the big boys, paying your debts off, strenghtening the squad and every aspect of the club within our means whilst attracting better exponsure, sponsorship and general interest.
No brainer for me. As much as anyone i romanticise about the old days in the 2nd tier and how we were at our level but its proving harder and harder to be sustainable at that level without incurring huge and potentially fatal debts.
I don't see this as a season of consolidation but of stepping up a division and learning a few lessons. Bear in mind that most our squad and certainly most of the starting players this season were playing in L1 last year and at times we have struggled this season. Yesterday's concession of two late goals (again) demonstrates that we stil have avfew frailties - if teams like Middlesboro can do that to us what will have decent prem teams? This end of season form suggests that we can hack it at this level but another promotion would leave the club with too many players who would be outclassed if we got into the premiership too soon and premiership quality footballers cost big money.
I'd rather the club evolved and we brought through/acquired and trained up a few players who can be part of a promotion push over the next season or two and could do a job if/when we get promoted. If you look at the squad we had when we were last promoted to the premiership most of those players formed the core of the squad for several seasons and made the step up. Other than Solly, Wiggins and a couple of others I can't see that many players in this current team could live at that level.
You talk of "potentially fatal debts" - the 92 clubs in the football league/prem have a collective debt of £3.5bilion - I'll let you guess in which division the majority of that debt is to be found. Even Cardiff - £86m in debt are talking about spending £25m to have a squad ready to compete so if we get promoted and do it without breaking the bank then another yesr or two of improving will be better for us in the long term.
If we got promoted this season we'd be back in the CCC in a year, but with bigger debts and a club gutted of the character that CP has spent all this time building.
Why? If the club had the nuts to tell us and the world at large that we are going to give it our best with the players we have, make those players (with one or two exceptions) realise that they are going to be playing way above their true level, and as such they will get a pay rise as a reward, but nothing like "Premiership" wages. Then explain that they will use the money to pay off the debts and put us back on an even keel, and accept that it is more than likely that we will end up with a record low points total and then drop back into a league where we were able to finish in the top six with those same players, what would we have lost?
Nothing, in my opinion. It is no different to the game plan adopted by clubs that are willing to sacrifice winning cups for fourth place in the league and the riches of the Champions League, it is just on a smaller scale.
Blackpool adopted a similar stance, and ended up doing themselves a power of good.
Blackpool adopted a similar stance, and ended up doing themselves a power of good. #
But again you have a team who under-invested on promotion, and kept a tight lid on expenses and unsurprisingly were one season wonders and are now in mid-division in the CCC, that doesn't look like progress to me. Still they avoided the sort of meltdowns that Portsmouth and Wolves have experienced.
In the meantime their chairman did take £11m out of the club when they were in the premiership, so someone did well out of it.
I wonder what debts Blackpool have though. Bet it's less than us.
If i may paraphrase:- It is better to have been in the premiership and lost, than never to have been in the premiership at all!
I wonder if Pompey fans are thinking that way? A couple of seasons on and two relegations plus spells in and out of administration thanks to the unsustainable debts they acquired on the way...
Blackpool adopted a similar stance, and ended up doing themselves a power of good. #
But again you have a team who under-invested on promotion, and kept a tight lid on expenses and unsurprisingly were one season wonders and are now in mid-division in the CCC, that doesn't look like progress to me. Still they avoided the sort of meltdowns that Portsmouth and Wolves have experienced.
In the meantime their chairman did take £11m out of the club when they were in the premiership, so someone did well out of it.
I wonder what debts Blackpool have though. Bet it's less than us.
Not much - their exact financial position is hard to determine as it involved the sale of some land.
But you also have to factor in that they had parachute payments to underpin things this season, and yet they still finished below us and from looking at their squad/prospects for next season I think they'll be mid-division again. From what I can see they adopted a realistic attitude that they weren't big enough or financially powerful enough to compete in the premiership so they kept a tight lid on wages and expenses (other than Owen Oyston giving himself a £11m pay-off) and they were promptly relegated and back into mid-table they went...
The only sane team to get promoted in recent years is Swansea - they have developed the sort of business model that we should be following. They took their time building a squad that would get them promoted and will keep them in the Premiership and have spent money where it should be spent - on the other hand we have fans with ADD who demand promotion here and now...
Blackpool adopted a similar stance, and ended up doing themselves a power of good. #
But again you have a team who under-invested on promotion, and kept a tight lid on expenses and unsurprisingly were one season wonders and are now in mid-division in the CCC, that doesn't look like progress to me. Still they avoided the sort of meltdowns that Portsmouth and Wolves have experienced.
In the meantime their chairman did take £11m out of the club when they were in the premiership, so someone did well out of it.
So if (and it's a big "if", I grant you) our chairman did not take £11m out of the club, and we ended up 15th in the Championship in 2014/15, we would be going neither up, nor down, like we are today and have £11m more in the bank. How is that not progress?
Think the parachute payment situation is why we should consider this season a success.There were teams who were far better positioned than us with these yet we still finished above them.A testament to the hard work put in by everyone at the club.
So if (and it's a big "if", I grant you) our chairman did not take £11m out of the club, and we ended up 15th in the Championship in 2014/15, we would be going neither up, nor down, like we are today and have £11m more in the bank. How is that not progress?
I'm not sure what dictionary you are using but getting relegated is not "progress"....especially when you end up in mid-division.
The point you are missing is that BFC realised that that they were never going to last in the EPL so they set out their finances accordingly. They turned over less than any other club that year (£52m in total) and their wage bill was the lowest by some distance and even that was heavily inflated by Oyston's £11m dividend. Then they got relegated and are back in mid-table - and that is despite parachute payments totalling £16m this season. They get more parachute money next season too...
They have spectacularly under-performed when you consider that £16m was handed to them on a plate with more money to follow. Similarly Blackburn, Birmingham and Wolves have under-performed given the money they were gifted.
Given that so many teams have poor seasons after relegation from the premiership (and we have experience there) I'd conclude that the changes in playing personnel and the need to shift players on high wages out or persuade them to play on markedly lower wages has a damaging effect on club morale and performances. The debt then forces many clubs into making further cut-backs - and even sends some clubs over the edge - eg Southampton, Leeds, Portsmouth etc. It's remarkable how few clubs bounce back into the premiership at the first time of asking. And before anyone says what about West Ham - they are around £90m in debt.
So..I'd rather we built a squad capable of getting us promoted without breaking the bank and gives us a fighting chance of have a sustainable future in the EPL. That might take a little while longer - but patience is the key. Or we could just have a glory season and then end up like many other relegated clubs deep in debt, rudderless and having to expensively rebuild.
Does being halfway through a five year plan equate to patience ?
Year one - promotion from L1 - tick. Year two - top half-finish in CCC - tick. Year three...well who knows?
We still have half a season to go before we get to the half-way stage but progress looks pretty good to me given that we didn't have parachute money or a rich benefactor to indulge our hobby.
If however you are disatisfied with progress then please make a very large seven figure cheque out to the club so they can advance things a tad - something around the £7m to £8m mark would cover our debts I believe.
My real point is that if there ever was a five year plan it comes to fruition not next season but the one after. Investment will be required for next season.
Think you will find we are half way right now. Jimenez and Slater had half a season in league one before SCP was brought in.
Yep, silly of me to include the six months that they spent watching a poor side slide to our lowest final league position in decades before rebuilding.
Compare then and now - only the impatient would regard the last two full seasons as anything but success.
CP had a shit half season in league one, learnt from it and walked it next season. Up and down performances this season but now finding a system and some form...next season we will be favourites because of this one factor: CP has a record of learning from his mistakes! If we had made the Prem CP would have still been working at Championship level, resulting in many defeats and a quick return, albeit with some money but also with our tails between our legs. If we get to the Prem, I for one want to stay there and not see the spirit he has generated within our club be smashed into a million pieces because money alone does not guarantee success.
Comments
It is better to have been in the premiership and lost, than never to have been in the premiership at all!
To have been promoted this season would only have seen us relegated next.
I don't see this as a season of consolidation but of stepping up a division and learning a few lessons. Bear in mind that most our squad and certainly most of the starting players this season were playing in L1 last year and at times we have struggled this season. Yesterday's concession of two late goals (again) demonstrates that we stil have avfew frailties - if teams like Middlesboro can do that to us what will have decent prem teams? This end of season form suggests that we can hack it at this level but another promotion would leave the club with too many players who would be outclassed if we got into the premiership too soon and premiership quality footballers cost big money.
I'd rather the club evolved and we brought through/acquired and trained up a few players who can be part of a promotion push over the next season or two and could do a job if/when we get promoted. If you look at the squad we had when we were last promoted to the premiership most of those players formed the core of the squad for several seasons and made the step up. Other than Solly, Wiggins and a couple of others I can't see that many players in this current team could live at that level.
You talk of "potentially fatal debts" - the 92 clubs in the football league/prem have a collective debt of £3.5bilion - I'll let you guess in which division the majority of that debt is to be found. Even Cardiff - £86m in debt are talking about spending £25m to have a squad ready to compete so if we get promoted and do it without breaking the bank then another yesr or two of improving will be better for us in the long term.
If we got promoted this season we'd be back in the CCC in a year, but with bigger debts and a club gutted of the character that CP has spent all this time building.
how much would it take
didn't leicester lose 30 million lastyear
Nothing, in my opinion. It is no different to the game plan adopted by clubs that are willing to sacrifice winning cups for fourth place in the league and the riches of the Champions League, it is just on a smaller scale.
Blackpool adopted a similar stance, and ended up doing themselves a power of good.
But again you have a team who under-invested on promotion, and kept a tight lid on expenses and unsurprisingly were one season wonders and are now in mid-division in the CCC, that doesn't look like progress to me. Still they avoided the sort of meltdowns that Portsmouth and Wolves have experienced.
In the meantime their chairman did take £11m out of the club when they were in the premiership, so someone did well out of it.
Not much - their exact financial position is hard to determine as it involved the sale of some land.
But you also have to factor in that they had parachute payments to underpin things this season, and yet they still finished below us and from looking at their squad/prospects for next season I think they'll be mid-division again. From what I can see they adopted a realistic attitude that they weren't big enough or financially powerful enough to compete in the premiership so they kept a tight lid on wages and expenses (other than Owen Oyston giving himself a £11m pay-off) and they were promptly relegated and back into mid-table they went...
The only sane team to get promoted in recent years is Swansea - they have developed the sort of business model that we should be following. They took their time building a squad that would get them promoted and will keep them in the Premiership and have spent money where it should be spent - on the other hand we have fans with ADD who demand promotion here and now...
I'm not sure what dictionary you are using but getting relegated is not "progress"....especially when you end up in mid-division.
The point you are missing is that BFC realised that that they were never going to last in the EPL so they set out their finances accordingly. They turned over less than any other club that year (£52m in total) and their wage bill was the lowest by some distance and even that was heavily inflated by Oyston's £11m dividend. Then they got relegated and are back in mid-table - and that is despite parachute payments totalling £16m this season. They get more parachute money next season too...
They have spectacularly under-performed when you consider that £16m was handed to them on a plate with more money to follow. Similarly Blackburn, Birmingham and Wolves have under-performed given the money they were gifted.
Given that so many teams have poor seasons after relegation from the premiership (and we have experience there) I'd conclude that the changes in playing personnel and the need to shift players on high wages out or persuade them to play on markedly lower wages has a damaging effect on club morale and performances. The debt then forces many clubs into making further cut-backs - and even sends some clubs over the edge - eg Southampton, Leeds, Portsmouth etc. It's remarkable how few clubs bounce back into the premiership at the first time of asking. And before anyone says what about West Ham - they are around £90m in debt.
So..I'd rather we built a squad capable of getting us promoted without breaking the bank and gives us a fighting chance of have a sustainable future in the EPL. That might take a little while longer - but patience is the key. Or we could just have a glory season and then end up like many other relegated clubs deep in debt, rudderless and having to expensively rebuild.
Year one - promotion from L1 - tick.
Year two - top half-finish in CCC - tick.
Year three...well who knows?
We still have half a season to go before we get to the half-way stage but progress looks pretty good to me given that we didn't have parachute money or a rich benefactor to indulge our hobby.
If however you are disatisfied with progress then please make a very large seven figure cheque out to the club so they can advance things a tad - something around the £7m to £8m mark would cover our debts I believe.
I'm sure you know the address to send it too...
Compare then and now - only the impatient would regard the last two full seasons as anything but success.