As much as I love CAFC - at the moment I cannot justify £30 for a ticket. If I had known that before hand I would not have attended. I cant see any justification for a game like this to be worth £30...
I agree. I brought two friends along (Spurs and Southend fans), but subsidised their tickets to get them to come. Treated it as a Christmas present. They spent money around the ground which is great, but they'd join me far more often if £20 was standard. Then again, where I come from, Horley Town charge £10-£15 for 10th tier football!
Speaking as a part timer who in terms of match attendance, can take it or leave it, the current matchday prices are such that I usually leave it. It's probably fair to say I leave it on the principle of the ticket price being too high, not that I can't afford it.
A very interesting discussion. It's clear that pitching ticket prices at the right level in order to maximise revenues (which Airman states as the objective) is complex. It is necessary to judge what economists would call the price elasticity of demand of Charlton's actual and potential fan base whilst ensuring that the medium to long-term impact of pricing today is also favourable.
I'm posting because there is a further aspect of this problem that, as far as I can tell, hasn't yet been mentioned. This concerns the simple fact that some people are willing and able to pay more than others for the same thing. Whilst £30 for a seat might be too much for some, others might be prepared to pay more. The challenge for the revenue maximiser is how to secure both types of customer without giving both a cut price deal.
Many businesses face this conundrum and there are many different strategies, but most involve some kind of differential pricing in exchange for some perceived value added. The cynical business (Wembley Stadium Ltd is a good example) charges the price insensitive customer a very large premium relative to the real value added.
How might this apply to Charlton? It's not easy given the way the Stadium is organised. However, in my view, for what it's worth, the "best" seats appear too cheap relative to the "worst" seats, ie the price difference could perhaps be bigger; the "worst" seats cheaper and the 'best" seats more expensive, for example. Moreover, there may be room for more granularity. The two blocks either side of the half-way line in the East and West Stands might be the premium areas with the adjacent blocks a level down and the wings "better value" still. I have two wonderful seats in the Upper West, central and near the front and yet they are the same price as seats less central and much further back. Has the Club got that right? There is, obviously, a limit to this process and Airman may say that it's already been reached, but it is clearly true that the Club can serve multiple price points. They are not mutually exclusive.
On this general subject and at the risk of digression, I was surprised by the 5-yr season ticket deal, at least if I recall the details correctly. The buyer saves money over a 5-yr period. Why? How does that help the Club? Those people would almost certainly have bought annual season tickets anyway so the Club is losing revenues for what can only be a marginal benefit of a relatively small amount of money upfront. Can't see the logic. An alternative might have been to target a smaller number of subscribers and charge a significant premium for a premium package; a more exclusive "service", more chances to sit in the Directors box or whatever might turn people on. I don't know anything about the profile of the Club's fan base, but 75/100 punters at £800/£1000 a shot per season would be incremental revenues. It may not have worked, but it might have been an interesting experiment.
We previously did try three season ticket price points in the east and upper west stands, but increased the middle one to match the top one. The reasoning for this was a) to squeeze more revenue out of the intermediate blocks, b) the central blocks tended to be season tickets, c) with so many empty seats in other blocks the graduated pricing was unenforceable and d) most people paid the top matchday price if they could regardless. The wing block prices in the east and upper west have poor take-up even now, but we wanted to be able to make an intermediate matchday offer when the cheapest tickets sell out.
Judging by the feedback on Saturday and previously, there is a big perception problem around a higher top price. The discussion is all around whether £30 is reasonable - the fact that anyone could have bought a £25 ticket in, say, east block G, and that if you bought in advance and for at least some if not all the time on the day you could pay £22 to get in just gets lost. I think you'd have the same issue if you moved blocks C and D, say, to £35, or £30 normally. Plus you'd potentially upset some season ticket holders whose seats would increase by more than the average.
The club does already provide a premium offer, which is hospitality, and includes a directors box seat with certain packages.
Overall it's important to remember that we don't sell anything like as many home matchday tickets as people are wont to assume, so there isn't a great deal to be gained from over-complicating things. In reality the north upper and premium adult price points are far and away the most significant ones. They would account for more than half of all home ticket sales and more than three-quarters of the revenue.
On the five year ticket the directors simply wanted the money in, which trumped any other consideration. In truth there was a view at a high level within the club that these tickets should not have been offered at all, because there was considerable uncertainty at the time that they could be honoured. In fact, because we subsequently reduced the prices, the VIPs currently stand to lose money against standard pricing, but I expect that to be corrected over the next two seasons, if not next season.
In a fixed capacity stadium (which was one of the main drivers behind all seater) the aim must surely be to find the price at which the place is sold out and then move that price up as people start to buy season tickets to ensure entry to all games or at least selected games... somehow CAFC has gone from 21,000 season ticket holders to 11,500 when we know that probably only 3,000 were locals with no affinity to CAFC but who wanted premier league entertainment... so there are 6,000 former season ticket holders out there... theres more but enough for now
In a fixed capacity stadium (which was one of the main drivers behind all seater) the aim must surely be to find the price at which the place is sold out and then move that price up as people start to buy season tickets to ensure entry to all games or at least selected games... somehow CAFC has gone from 21,000 season ticket holders to 11,500 when we know that probably only 3,000 were locals with no affinity to CAFC but who wanted premier league entertainment... so there are 6,000 former season ticket holders out there... theres more but enough for now
I don't agree with that. I doubt if there is any price at which the stadium is sold out every week in the Championship but let's say that it's £5 a seat. You can do the maths yourself, but that would be a long way short of maximising revenue taking into account that we get about £80k a match just from season tickets at present.
I did put a flat rate season ticket of £199 to the board as an option last year, based on the Hartlepool model, but I wasn't convinced by it.
talking of maximising revenue my mate asked if iwas going for a pint at half time saturday i told him could notbe bothered anymore i have either got to go down early or wait till half time and drink my pint in 5 mins flat. are there any others who dont bother at half time
Airman - i respect your right to disagree ... But try Brighton average vs capacity... clue price ain't the only factor to building a full house but who am i tellin' ?!!!
Airman - i respect your right to disagree ... But try Brighton average vs capacity... clue price ain't the only factor to building a full house but who am i tellin' ?!!!
Well, of course, but we haven't just built the stadium after years of suppressed demand or in our own case just come down from the PL. We've recently emerged from years of dross. I was just interested that you start from the assumption that a full stadium is the optimum. Of course it's a good thing, but not at any price.
It was very difficult to take financial risks 2008-10 for reasons you can appreciate. I think we've made a good start in rebuilding the base, but I have no idea what will happen next.
Are season tickets too cheap at the present and if so should we expect them to be increased in line with other clubs prices.
Would a significant price increase for seasson tickets in the current climate have a negative impact on future sales.
Season tickets are cheap by comparison with our own prices 2007-09, which is a better comparison, but I personally think to try to return to these levels in one hit may be counter-productive, i.e produce less revenue than a more modest increase.
Airman, of those who buy single match tickets, are most regulars? i.e. do they go to more than say 5 games a season? Or is it mainly just casual supporters or non-Charlton fans?
You'll know better than me but it always seems that the red card scheme isn't utilised as well as it could be, for me personally I don't have a ST any more, still go to the majority of home games each year. If other people are the same wouldn't it be a better idea to target those by way of using their red card info and doing some target marketing with offers etc.?
The Red Card information is incomplete because the club can only track advance sales and the person who pays for the tickets for practical reasons. I think there is scope to do more, but we have been doing targeted offers to selected Red Card holders, especially lapsed STs, over the last couple of years. Within that we looked to exclude those who still bought regularly anyway, which is why it may appear we haven't been doing this.
Based on what information the club is able to collect, the match sale is a pretty mixed bag. I think the RedCard scheme itself could be developed further, but bearing in mind any benefits really need to go to ST holders as well cost has been an obstacle. It was always intended to extend it into other areas so for example there could be loyalty bonuses in retail or in refreshment kiosks, but there were practical difficulties as well as an anti-discount ethos in those areas of the club. Where it comes into its own is collecting and using the data from people who come to £5 games, etc.
It will be interesting to see how Derby's differential pricing works out for them this year. So far it's not been a good news story, with attendances still down - although we don't know how that's translated into revenues of course, and they've probably not had a single home fixture for which they'd have expected a bumper crowd yet this year - but with 4k missing off their average gate to date it doesn't bode well.
Obviously on-field success will infuence the attractiveness of regular attendance, but ultimately the cost of football is going to be a major factor for anyone in the current climate and ticket prices are only part of that of course. I think the Valley Express is a very significant means of reducing that cost, but a family of four go along and you might be looking at £100 just for the day when you factor in transport, food (catering prices are outrageous), programmes etc. That's never going to translate into their regular attendance.
Comments
I'm posting because there is a further aspect of this problem that, as far as I can tell, hasn't yet been mentioned. This concerns the simple fact that some people are willing and able to pay more than others for the same thing. Whilst £30 for a seat might be too much for some, others might be prepared to pay more. The challenge for the revenue maximiser is how to secure both types of customer without giving both a cut price deal.
Many businesses face this conundrum and there are many different strategies, but most involve some kind of differential pricing in exchange for some perceived value added. The cynical business (Wembley Stadium Ltd is a good example) charges the price insensitive customer a very large premium relative to the real value added.
How might this apply to Charlton? It's not easy given the way the Stadium is organised. However, in my view, for what it's worth, the "best" seats appear too cheap relative to the "worst" seats, ie the price difference could perhaps be bigger; the "worst" seats cheaper and the 'best" seats more expensive, for example. Moreover, there may be room for more granularity. The two blocks either side of the half-way line in the East and West Stands might be the premium areas with the adjacent blocks a level down and the wings "better value" still. I have two wonderful seats in the Upper West, central and near the front and yet they are the same price as seats less central and much further back. Has the Club got that right? There is, obviously, a limit to this process and Airman may say that it's already been reached, but it is clearly true that the Club can serve multiple price points. They are not mutually exclusive.
On this general subject and at the risk of digression, I was surprised by the 5-yr season ticket deal, at least if I recall the details correctly. The buyer saves money over a 5-yr period. Why? How does that help the Club? Those people would almost certainly have bought annual season tickets anyway so the Club is losing revenues for what can only be a marginal benefit of a relatively small amount of money upfront. Can't see the logic. An alternative might have been to target a smaller number of subscribers and charge a significant premium for a premium package; a more exclusive "service", more chances to sit in the Directors box or whatever might turn people on. I don't know anything about the profile of the Club's fan base, but 75/100 punters at £800/£1000 a shot per season would be incremental revenues. It may not have worked, but it might have been an interesting experiment.
Any thoughts Airman?
Judging by the feedback on Saturday and previously, there is a big perception problem around a higher top price. The discussion is all around whether £30 is reasonable - the fact that anyone could have bought a £25 ticket in, say, east block G, and that if you bought in advance and for at least some if not all the time on the day you could pay £22 to get in just gets lost. I think you'd have the same issue if you moved blocks C and D, say, to £35, or £30 normally. Plus you'd potentially upset some season ticket holders whose seats would increase by more than the average.
The club does already provide a premium offer, which is hospitality, and includes a directors box seat with certain packages.
Overall it's important to remember that we don't sell anything like as many home matchday tickets as people are wont to assume, so there isn't a great deal to be gained from over-complicating things. In reality the north upper and premium adult price points are far and away the most significant ones. They would account for more than half of all home ticket sales and more than three-quarters of the revenue.
On the five year ticket the directors simply wanted the money in, which trumped any other consideration. In truth there was a view at a high level within the club that these tickets should not have been offered at all, because there was considerable uncertainty at the time that they could be honoured. In fact, because we subsequently reduced the prices, the VIPs currently stand to lose money against standard pricing, but I expect that to be corrected over the next two seasons, if not next season.
The point about perceptions is interesting and can't make the pricing puzzle any easier!!
I'm not sure how reassured I am by your observation that the Directors simply wanted the money in.......regardless!!
I did put a flat rate season ticket of £199 to the board as an option last year, based on the Hartlepool model, but I wasn't convinced by it.
my mate asked if iwas going for a pint at half time saturday i told him could notbe bothered anymore
i have either got to go down early or wait till half time and drink my pint in 5 mins flat.
are there any others who dont bother at half time
It was very difficult to take financial risks 2008-10 for reasons you can appreciate. I think we've made a good start in rebuilding the base, but I have no idea what will happen next.
Are season tickets too cheap at the present and if so should we expect them to be increased in line with other clubs prices.
Would a significant price increase for seasson tickets in the current climate have a negative impact on future sales.
You'll know better than me but it always seems that the red card scheme isn't utilised as well as it could be, for me personally I don't have a ST any more, still go to the majority of home games each year. If other people are the same wouldn't it be a better idea to target those by way of using their red card info and doing some target marketing with offers etc.?
Based on what information the club is able to collect, the match sale is a pretty mixed bag. I think the RedCard scheme itself could be developed further, but bearing in mind any benefits really need to go to ST holders as well cost has been an obstacle. It was always intended to extend it into other areas so for example there could be loyalty bonuses in retail or in refreshment kiosks, but there were practical difficulties as well as an anti-discount ethos in those areas of the club. Where it comes into its own is collecting and using the data from people who come to £5 games, etc.
Obviously on-field success will infuence the attractiveness of regular attendance, but ultimately the cost of football is going to be a major factor for anyone in the current climate and ticket prices are only part of that of course. I think the Valley Express is a very significant means of reducing that cost, but a family of four go along and you might be looking at £100 just for the day when you factor in transport, food (catering prices are outrageous), programmes etc. That's never going to translate into their regular attendance.