I agree racism should be kicked out, but that is a pathetic suggestion.
That was meant to be a joke (forgot smiley).
I heard that Spurs were trying to stamp this out (maybe half-heartedly I suppose)
Was the stuff about Hitler offensive, racist or both? I remember watching some TV documentary several years ago when all that stuff was being spouted at West Ham v Spurs games. Clearly some people think it's fair game football banter to come out with all this crap. It's just wrong mate and about time it was stamped out. It used to be football banter to chuck bananas on the pitch and give out monkey chants. That's been almost totally stopped now.
Presumably some of those responsible last Sunday will be tracked down by video and prosecuted by the police?
I'm not in any way condoning what was being said, but, strictly speaking, it isn't actually racist to take the piss out of Jews. Judaism is a religion not a race. Religious hatred is another matter entirely.
[cite]Posted By: F-Blocker[/cite]I'm not in any way condoning what was being said, but, strictly speaking, it isn't actually racist to take the piss out of Jews. Judaism is a religion not a race. Religious hatred is another matter entirely.
No it's anti-semitism strictly speaking. Still wrong and against the law.
[cite]Posted By: F-Blocker[/cite]I'm not in any way condoning what was being said, but, strictly speaking, it isn't actually racist to take the piss out of Jews. Judaism is a religion not a race. Religious hatred is another matter entirely.
No it's anti-semitism strictly speaking. Still wrong and against the law.
Anti-semitism - Thanks, couldn't think of the word.
Yes, totally agree that it's still wrong - just get fed-up with everything being lumped under the racism banner.
One of the issues here is the adoption of Y*d Army by some Spurs fans. It was used against Spurs for years as a term of abuse plus all the stuff about Hitler. This goes back to the 1970's. I remember seeing a documentary some years ago showing Hammers fans giving this out. I suspect they were not the only fans doing it. Eventually some Spurs Fans decided to adopt it as a kind of rallying cry/badge of honour. All of a sudden, wrongly in my view, people are saying it's fair game to use this word because Spurs fans themselves use it. Even if the use of the word y*d is put on one side, all the other stuff about Hitler and p*kis is offensive in its own right.
The term y*d is considered offensive by a lot of jewish people and there have been moves afoot at Spurs to try and curtail the use of it. As I understand this matter is on-going with some thought that a programme of educating fans to why this is offensive may be the way forward.
We still come back to the anti-semitic/racist/offensive remarks which have been spouted for years at West Ham/Spurs matches and something should be done. Apparently according to one paper I read today, the Stewards should have taken action against those who were chanting this. No doubt the police will be deciding what action to take against the individuals.
Is this something which the FA should be involved? Well yes, even if they just re-enforce a message of unacceptability and support the banning of any fans found guilty.
[cite]Posted By: Chris_from_Sidcup[/cite]To be honest singing anti-jew songs to Tottenham is hardly something new, it's been going on for years. And Spurs are so bothered by it they play on the jewish connection by calling themselves the Yid Army!
Spurs are trying to stamp this out amongst their own supporters. Quite right in my view.
You only have to read some posts on KUMB to see that some posters think it's right to use such racist language. West Ham's official site say they take this very seriously and I'm sure thats true. Most Hammers fans are decent and do not indulge in this sort of filth.
Last year most English fans were up in arms about the "monkey" chanting of Spanish supporters against black England players. We wanted them to be chucked out of the World Cup. I'm afraid that something fairly harsh needs to be done to send a strong message that this sort of stuff will not be tolerated (and it's fairly well known to have been going on for years). Perhaps docking some points is a fitting punishment. On the other hand they may not have any to dock once the Tevez/Mascherano penalty is invoked.
I'm sorry Mortain, it's harsh to punish decent fans such as yourself but how else is this sort of thing going to be stamped out?
how can you compare 30,000 Spaniards monkey chanting to a couple of erberts in a concourse singing that song! that's not the same, this country is streets ahead of these other countries (Italy and Spain mostly), who are quite simply still in the dark ages! There have always been these kind of chants in English football, and i cant see how it will get stamped out completely, so long as you have these erberts who wont be taught to not do it! The only reason someone is making a fuss about it is because he posted it on you tube! He is obviously a tool, otherwise he wouldn't of posted it! You cant compare this to the spanish monkey chanting. It dont compare. And points deduction for it, well that even more absurd, remember a couple of weeks back, the guy that Suzi saw doing his Hitler ensemble, well that could of resulted in points deduction for us, all clubs this element, you go around docking points for it, its madness. All this of course is only my opinion, not an invite for a slanging match, as i ain't very good at them!!
were 30,000 spaniards doing the chanting or was it just a small minority? we need to stop generalising and grouping whole nations/fans/teams/clubs together
as the opinions of the spanish manager, did he keep his job?
It is important to distinguish between isolated individual obnoxious acts and mass misbehaviour.
The Spurs thing is difficult because they have a large Jewish following and appear happy themselves to chant "Yids" or "Yid Army." In those circumstances is it really the business of other fans?
isn't that like some black people refer to each other as nigger, but if called it in a derogatory way, its deemed racist? spurs fans are fine singing yid army about themselves, but to be called a "yid" is not acceptable if called by another team's fan?
its a very grey area. i don't mind being called names in a jokey way by mates, but if a strange called me something, i'd not take too kindly to it! its that on a larger scale.
What is acceptable "banter" and what goes beyond that? I expect everybody would have different ideas on that one!
I have worked many years with a Millwall fan. They used to chant about the Yorkshire Ripper having carnal knowledge of the mothers of Leeds fans.
I personally think that crosses the line although other fans have done and occasionally still do chant along those lines to Leeds and other Yorkshire teams.
There is a big debate about oppressed people "subverting the language of the oppressor" by taking pride in words that are or were used against them eg "Queer", "Black" and in Spurs case "Yid".
There is an arguement that Black people are allowed to use the "N" word but others are not but many Black people refute this and say that Black people shouldn't use it either.
The difference is references to "yid army" are a positive identification of self while "Spurs are on their way to Auschwitz, were gonna gas them again" etc are just about hate and ignorance.
BTW the use of the word "banter" to somehow permit any insult is the "worse excuse in the world and it doesn't make it alright"
[cite]Posted By: MCS[/cite] All this of course is only my opinion, not an invite for a slanging match, as i ain't very good at them!!
I was joking about the points deduction, see my later post. I don't think it was a couple of 'erberts although it was a small minority. Two wrongs don't make a right here. It may be about proportionate responses but the point about banter which Henry picked up on is right.
[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]There is a big debate about oppressed people "subverting the language of the oppressor" by taking pride in words that are or were used against them eg "Queer", "Black" and in Spurs case "Yid".
There is an arguement that Black people are allowed to use the "N" word but others are not but many Black people refute this and say that Black people shouldn't use it either.
The difference is references to "yid army" are a positive identification of self while "Spurs are on their way to Auschwitz, were gonna gas them again" etc are just about hate and ignorance.
BTW the use of the word "banter" to somehow permit any insult is the "worse excuse in the world and it doesn't make it alright"
Not offended in the slightest to be honest. The Yid Army thing is just the identification of the large Jewish following, although nowadays Ars*nal have just a large Jewish following as us believe it or not. However, when you go to places like Stamford Bridge and Upton Park and they hiss at you the whole game and start singing Who let the gas out? then thats another thing all together.
Just saw this story in the old currant bun today...Appears that some find the Yid Army chant less than amusing...
Teacher gets 8 nicked over vid By JOHN TROUP March 09, 2007
A HEADMASTER erupted in fury last night after cops arrested eight pupils for singing the soccer chant “Yid Army”.
The Tottenham-supporting boys did a version of the traditional Spurs chant at a leaving do for a JEWISH teacher.
Cops swooped on the school when the teacher complained of alleged racism after seeing a video of the boys’ chant on internet site YouTube.
The pupils, aged 15 and 16, were quizzed by cops for TEN hours — and had fingerprints and DNA samples taken.
Head Dennis O’Sullivan, of Chauncy School in Ware, Herts, blasted police for treating the boys as “criminals” after the complaint from technology teacher David Appleman.
He added: “Eight officers arrived in school and escorted eight boys, one by one, holding each by the arm, to police vans.
“They were all arrested on suspicion of racism.” * Click here to find out more!
The head said the boys had prepared a tribute to Mr Appleman for his last lesson. He added: “David is seen on the video looking delighted, smiling and shaking hands with the boys. At one point someone can be heard calling out ‘Yid Army’ twice.”
Mr O’Sullivan was angry that Mr Appleman had not complained to the school and instead went to the cops.
The “Yid Army” chant is used by Spurs fans in recognition of the club’s support from North London’s Jewish community.
Lifelong Tottenham fan Mr O’Sullivan said: “Now we have Spurs supporters chanting ‘Yiddo! Yiddo!’ about themselves at matches. I wonder if we will see the police making arrests at the next home match?”
The boys were bailed by cops who are preparing a file for the Crown Prosecution Service.
The more interesting Jewish association is the one at Ajax, where there are no links to the Jewish community, and the Jewish link is mainly there to piss off Feyenoord fans
Comments
That was meant to be a joke (forgot smiley).
I heard that Spurs were trying to stamp this out (maybe half-heartedly I suppose)
Was the stuff about Hitler offensive, racist or both? I remember watching some TV documentary several years ago when all that stuff was being spouted at West Ham v Spurs games. Clearly some people think it's fair game football banter to come out with all this crap. It's just wrong mate and about time it was stamped out. It used to be football banter to chuck bananas on the pitch and give out monkey chants. That's been almost totally stopped now.
Presumably some of those responsible last Sunday will be tracked down by video and prosecuted by the police?
No it's anti-semitism strictly speaking. Still wrong and against the law.
Yes, totally agree that it's still wrong - just get fed-up with everything being lumped under the racism banner.
The term y*d is considered offensive by a lot of jewish people and there have been moves afoot at Spurs to try and curtail the use of it. As I understand this matter is on-going with some thought that a programme of educating fans to why this is offensive may be the way forward.
We still come back to the anti-semitic/racist/offensive remarks which have been spouted for years at West Ham/Spurs matches and something should be done. Apparently according to one paper I read today, the Stewards should have taken action against those who were chanting this. No doubt the police will be deciding what action to take against the individuals.
Is this something which the FA should be involved? Well yes, even if they just re-enforce a message of unacceptability and support the banning of any fans found guilty.
how can you compare 30,000 Spaniards monkey chanting to a couple of erberts in a concourse singing that song! that's not the same, this country is streets ahead of these other countries (Italy and Spain mostly), who are quite simply still in the dark ages! There have always been these kind of chants in English football, and i cant see how it will get stamped out completely, so long as you have these erberts who wont be taught to not do it! The only reason someone is making a fuss about it is because he posted it on you tube! He is obviously a tool, otherwise he wouldn't of posted it! You cant compare this to the spanish monkey chanting. It dont compare. And points deduction for it, well that even more absurd, remember a couple of weeks back, the guy that Suzi saw doing his Hitler ensemble, well that could of resulted in points deduction for us, all clubs this element, you go around docking points for it, its madness. All this of course is only my opinion, not an invite for a slanging match, as i ain't very good at them!!
as the opinions of the spanish manager, did he keep his job?
It is important to distinguish between isolated individual obnoxious acts and mass misbehaviour.
The Spurs thing is difficult because they have a large Jewish following and appear happy themselves to chant "Yids" or "Yid Army." In those circumstances is it really the business of other fans?
John Boy?
its a very grey area. i don't mind being called names in a jokey way by mates, but if a strange called me something, i'd not take too kindly to it! its that on a larger scale.
What is acceptable "banter" and what goes beyond that? I expect everybody would have different ideas on that one!
I have worked many years with a Millwall fan. They used to chant about the Yorkshire Ripper having carnal knowledge of the mothers of Leeds fans.
I personally think that crosses the line although other fans have done and occasionally still do chant along those lines to Leeds and other Yorkshire teams.
There is an arguement that Black people are allowed to use the "N" word but others are not but many Black people refute this and say that Black people shouldn't use it either.
The difference is references to "yid army" are a positive identification of self while "Spurs are on their way to Auschwitz, were gonna gas them again" etc are just about hate and ignorance.
BTW the use of the word "banter" to somehow permit any insult is the "worse excuse in the world and it doesn't make it alright"
I was joking about the points deduction, see my later post. I don't think it was a couple of 'erberts although it was a small minority. Two wrongs don't make a right here. It may be about proportionate responses but the point about banter which Henry picked up on is right.
I agree totally with this Henry
Not offended in the slightest to be honest. The Yid Army thing is just the identification of the large Jewish following, although nowadays Ars*nal have just a large Jewish following as us believe it or not. However, when you go to places like Stamford Bridge and Upton Park and they hiss at you the whole game and start singing Who let the gas out? then thats another thing all together.
Teacher gets 8 nicked over vid
By JOHN TROUP
March 09, 2007
A HEADMASTER erupted in fury last night after cops arrested eight pupils for singing the soccer chant “Yid Army”.
The Tottenham-supporting boys did a version of the traditional Spurs chant at a leaving do for a JEWISH teacher.
Cops swooped on the school when the teacher complained of alleged racism after seeing a video of the boys’ chant on internet site YouTube.
The pupils, aged 15 and 16, were quizzed by cops for TEN hours — and had fingerprints and DNA samples taken.
Head Dennis O’Sullivan, of Chauncy School in Ware, Herts, blasted police for treating the boys as “criminals” after the complaint from technology teacher David Appleman.
He added: “Eight officers arrived in school and escorted eight boys, one by one, holding each by the arm, to police vans.
“They were all arrested on suspicion of racism.”
*
Click here to find out more!
The head said the boys had prepared a tribute to Mr Appleman for his last lesson. He added: “David is seen on the video looking delighted, smiling and shaking hands with the boys. At one point someone can be heard calling out ‘Yid Army’ twice.”
Mr O’Sullivan was angry that Mr Appleman had not complained to the school and instead went to the cops.
The “Yid Army” chant is used by Spurs fans in recognition of the club’s support from North London’s Jewish community.
Lifelong Tottenham fan Mr O’Sullivan said: “Now we have Spurs supporters chanting ‘Yiddo! Yiddo!’ about themselves at matches. I wonder if we will see the police making arrests at the next home match?”
The boys were bailed by cops who are preparing a file for the Crown Prosecution Service.
j.troup@the-sun.co.uk
The more interesting Jewish association is the one at Ajax, where there are no links to the Jewish community, and the Jewish link is mainly there to piss off Feyenoord fans