this clearly makes sense if only for improving the atmosphere. it is no coincidence how intimidating the Britannia is and how good stokes home record is.
They've got standing?
Stoke's home record is a myth as well.
I haven't been to the Britannia but I'd bet the times we've played there the atmosphere's also been mediocre.
Do we not justify high prices in the Jimmy Seed stand as they are comparable with the Lower North?
If so would we need to reduce prices for the away fans? If this happened the financials are changed aren't they?
I don't, personally, want to stand. I don't, really, understand those that do. I also suspect that the authorities will never allow it. Unless I'm mistaken we (the British people) are going to be paying for holding an enquiry and compensating fans for the Hillsborough disaster for probably another twenty years. Why would any politition want to back this?
Just because I don't want to stand, and don't see why others would want to I don't have a problem with it, I just don't think it will happen and I think it is easy for people to lend their support to it safe in the knowledge that it won't happen. For this reason it gives the wrong impression about the amount if support it has with local MPs etc.
Surely there's no point in re-introducing standing if there is no demand for it. We can't fill the ground as it is now. Clubs will have to charge less for standing, so they'd have to know that the people are out there just waiting to fill the stands. It only works financially if you get the people in. Are they out there, just waiting for their moment? I don't know.
this clearly makes sense if only for improving the atmosphere. it is no coincidence how intimidating the Britannia is and how good stokes home record is.
I'm really not sure about this claim. Who are these fans that currently sit in their seats and make no noise who will suddenly choose to move to a standing area and feel free to sing? If you want to stand and sing there are places in the ground to do that, and there is currently spare capacity.
Please can someone raise their hand and say Ey, if they currently don't stand and sing but would do if there was terracing.
A couple of people above questioned the business case for converting to safe standing when money is tight. This article from the FSFmakes the case. It's worth a read (I certainly don't pretend I already knew this stuff either)
It may be defeatist but in my opinion it will never happen. No politician will sign it off as should anything happen in the future the merde will land back on them! Its the same reason why the speed limits will never be raised or airport security reduced.
In addition most clubs will be against it as they will lose revenue (with the cost of removing seats, installing barriers and re-pro-filling steps) as well as having to reduce ticket prices with a reduced standing capacity to prevent the dangers of over crowding that used to occur.
The FA will also be against it because of the repercussions that an "event in hooligan Britain" would have with all the other authorities in EUFA and FIFA.
The police would be against it as it would be harder to identify troublemakers.
The stewards will be against it because of the problems in sorting out troublemakers.
Most football fans wont be bothered because they like sitting, or they have got used to being able to see the pitch (if they are shorter than 6ft or they take kids), or they like having the same seat each week, or they aren't used to standing (it been some years now). Probably only 30% of fans would be bothered and that wont be enough to overcome resistance or apathy of everyone else.
Personally I like standing (sadly I used to like the Sainsbury terrace at Palace mainly because it was cheap & deserted, and also the old East Terrace where some nights it was just me, my brothers and the peanut seller) but I'm over 6ft and lucky enough to remember seeing some of the game.
Many will not like me for saying this, but standing in all seater stadia is neither right nor safe. A couple of years ago for a birthday present I took my wife to Old Trafford for the Manchester derby, we were in the Stretford End, no one sat down for the entire match, whilst I am over six foot tall my wife is considerably shorter and her view, and enjoyment of the match were ruined. Five years ago at an England international at Wembley, I was sitting right up in the gods when someone behind me stood up and subsequently ended up falling forwards and taking out those sitting in the five rows in front of him, including a pregnant lady and a young girl who was reduced to tears by the experience. Modern stadiums are not designed for standing, the gradient of the seating, and the fact that the backs of the seats are just asking for people to trip over, make standing lethal.
Having said this I am the first to acknowledge the passion that goes with supporting your team. Yesterday I sat in the North Upper (M Block), as usual, the J Block regulars stood for virtually the whole game. I get to a few away games where standing seems to be the norm, and I have to accept that standing does tend to bring out a more vocal level of support.
I`m old enough to remember the early 80s, and standing on some right run down terraces. In my teens this viewed this as being good fun, and adding to the atmosphere. Upon reflection our stadiums were death traps (Anyone remember Plough Lane, Wimbledon?) and action had to be taken. Advocating anything which goes anywhere near the "good" old days is quite simply irresponsible and should never be even considered.
Personally I feel that it is decision time for the football authorities, there is a simple choice; either introduce staning areas for those who wish to stand, or, if not introducing such areas and remaining "all seating" then the clubs must robustly enforce "no standing" (Including the Stretford End, The Kop, and the North Upper J-Block!). At least then all fans will know where they stand (or sit!!)
So, all things considered, why don`t we give safe standing areas a try? With adequate provision for the location, structure and facilities within these areas, along with professional stewarding and a strict limit on spectator capacity surely they have the potential to be both safe, and popular. Like anything they can be introduced on a trial basis, with reduced capacities which can be increased if all goes well. It will be down to those occupying these areas to conduct themselves resonsibly and appropriately - or the seats will go back in.
So why not take a tentative step and give supporters a choice? Personally my standing days are behind me, and nowadays I enjoy the comfort of a seat. But the last thing I want to see is a passionate, exuberant Charlton fan falling headfirst from Row UU in The J-Block.
A couple of people above questioned the business case for converting to safe standing when money is tight. This article from the FSFmakes the case. It's worth a read (I certainly don't pretend I already knew this stuff either)
It's a flawed premise though. Their business case is built on increasing capacity to 140%, but it assumes 100% demand with no loss in other areas of the ground, which is unlikely. I think there's a case to be made, but terracing was always sold more cheaply than seating and I suspect it needs a lot of favourable conditions for the business case to be reliable universally. What they're showing is how a business case might play out where more capacity is needed to meet demand.
I think the FSA should focus on the elephant in the room - the HSE argument. That is, that it is inherently unsafe to allow people to stand in seated areas. I don't buy the argument, incidentally, and I doubt any stats would back it up, but I understand that the regulations state that supporters in seated areas must be seated. They need to get someone of influence to acknowledge there's a problem, so that the obvious solution can be put forward to those who can effect the change.
You see on the basis of an HSE problem, it might be reasonable to request funding support to the clubs in the same way that the Football Foundation (was it?) funded the ground developments after the Taylor report. This is where the business case really starts to come together.
We will be looking at safe standing in the next CASTrust newsletter
What do you mean by 'looking at'?
This is clearly a massively important time for the trust, with the launch in a couple of weeks, and I would have thought the main priority would be getting the numbers up to increase legitimacy and standing with the club. Whatever your views on safe standing, it is clearly a highly divisive issue (as demonstrated by this thread), and I can't help but wonder whether it might not be better to steer clear at this stage?
As someone who will be keen to join the Trust myself, I would hate to see others put off because they don't support a particular stance on standing.
Have you subscribed yet? We are looking for more active participants.
The big one on the horizon for the Trust is of course our AGM early next year, but would you also have us concentrate on process alone and ignore contemporary ideas that might help our club?
It's an interesting question which we hope to answer when we will be surveying fans shortly again with survey II to see what issues are actually important to them that Trust could look at. Having said that we aren't going to be able to please everyone I am sure.
I agree with Jodaius, if the Trust is going to take a firm 'stand' on this, either for or against, they may unwhittingly deter some people from joining at a very early stage.
Have you subscribed yet? We are looking for more active participants.
The big one on the horizon for the Trust is of course our AGM early next year, but would you also have us concentrate on process alone and ignore contemporary ideas that might help our club?
It's an interesting question which we hope to answer when we will be surveying fans shortly again with survey II to see what issues are actually important to them that Trust could look at. Having said that we aren't going to be able to please everyone I am sure.
I have already subscribed, and will be joining as a full member at the earliest opportunity. Unfortunately I don't really have the time to become any more 'actively' involved than this, but have the greatest respect for those that do. The last thing I want is to come across as critical of people who have put a lot of hard work into this, and I apologise if my earlier comment was misinterpreted as such.
I think it's great that you're taking the time and effort to survey fans and spread the word in order to find out what the members want - I think this will be the key to the success of the Trust. Personally I would have no objection whatsoever to questions about safe standing being included on a future survey. I was just concerned from your earlier post that it seemed like a decision had already been taken to support this without consulting the members, and was worried that this might put some people off.
Of course you can never please everyone, but I would think that most people would respect the wishes of the majority in most cases.
On such an issue I would assuming it is up to be expect a balanced article, a point in case being the need for a Trust which our survey showed an overwhelming number of our fans support in principle.
We completely understand that we are open to criticism ideally balanced and well argued, and hopefully we can answer that.
At the same time we are working extremly hard on this, you would not believe how much efforts sometimes goes into these things.
Thank you for your support, I just want to know if DRF has signed up? Or is he just going to maintain a 'devil's advocate' role?
So, let's get to the nub of the issue regarding a so-called "safe standing area".
You won't get many women in it because they can't easily watch the game over or around their taller /larger male counterparts; you won't get many children for a similar reason and because their parents won't think it's actually safe; you won't get any supporters who feel (rightly or wrongly) intimidated by large numbers of men singing and bouncing around; and you won't get many older supporters because they suffer from ailments that prevent them from standing comfortably for long periods.
So what is actually being asked for is an exclusive area for boisterous young men many of whom will have got boozed up before the match. I'd say that in many grounds, possibly including ours, such an area will have little chance of being "safe" at all and that therefore no sensible club would entertain the concept. (And maybe, post Hillsborough, liability insurers for the more crowded grounds in the top two divisions would take a similar view, making the concept impossible to implement.)
So, let's get to the nub of the issue regarding a so-called "safe standing area".
You won't get many women in it because they can't easily watch the game over or around their taller /larger male counterparts; you won't get many children for a similar reason and because their parents won't think it's actually safe; you won't get any supporters who feel (rightly or wrongly) intimidated by large numbers of men singing and bouncing around; and you won't get many older supporters because they suffer from ailments that prevent them from standing comfortably for long periods.
So what is actually being asked for is an exclusive area for boisterous young men many of whom will have got boozed up before the match. I'd say that in many grounds, possibly including ours, such an area will have little chance of being "safe" at all and that therefore no sensible club would entertain the concept. (And maybe, post Hillsborough, liability insurers for the more crowded grounds in the top two divisions would take a similar view, making the concept impossible to implement.)
So, do you then believe that England still has a uniquely uncivilised fan base? I ask because it seems to work in Germany and I am not aware that German fans are particularly different. Whenever I've come up close to German fans they look and sound much like us, but with dodgier hair. The clubs with big standing areas such as Schalke and Dortmund are traditional working class clubs, and by the heavens, they are noisy. Not surprising as they can drink as much beer as they want while watching the game. How come these clubs are happy to have standing areas for 15-20,000 fans?
So, let's get to the nub of the issue regarding a so-called "safe standing area".
You won't get many women in it because they can't easily watch the game over or around their taller /larger male counterparts; you won't get many children for a similar reason and because their parents won't think it's actually safe; you won't get any supporters who feel (rightly or wrongly) intimidated by large numbers of men singing and bouncing around; and you won't get many older supporters because they suffer from ailments that prevent them from standing comfortably for long periods.
So what is actually being asked for is an exclusive area for boisterous young men many of whom will have got boozed up before the match. I'd say that in many grounds, possibly including ours, such an area will have little chance of being "safe" at all and that therefore no sensible club would entertain the concept. (And maybe, post Hillsborough, liability insurers for the more crowded grounds in the top two divisions would take a similar view, making the concept impossible to implement.)
So, do you then believe that England still has a uniquely uncivilised fan base? I ask because it seems to work in Germany and I am not aware that German fans are particularly different. Whenever I've come up close to German fans they look and sound much like us, but with dodgier hair. The clubs with big standing areas such as Schalke and Dortmund are traditional working class clubs, and by the heavens, they are noisy. Not surprising as they can drink as much beer as they want while watching the game. How come these clubs are happy to have standing areas for 15-20,000 fans?
Germans can handle there drink English people have two drinks and think they are Danny Dyer. Safe standing at modern stadiums should not be allowed and hopefully never will so will not be getting my vote.
A number of things at play here... when my family and a few mates sat in the north upper in the Prem queues were horendous so not much extra revenue unless... you let people drink while watching the game... why not do that ?well go have a look at a typical high st / club at 11pm / 1am on a Friday / Saturday !! The irony is that Charlton could carry it off but how many other London clubs? Arsenal, Fulham The model for running clubs in the UK (&US) is very different to Europe - perhaps there are other areas to look at as per Prague's article in the New trust newsletter???
Germans can handle there drink English people have two drinks and think they are Danny Dyer. Safe standing at modern stadiums should not be allowed and hopefully never will so will not be getting my vote.
Have you been to Germany? Or Holland, Denmark, Sweden? The above is a ridiculous statement, they aren't biologically different from us, they drink alcohol, they get drunk, just the same as us. The only possible difference it they have been brought up in countries where historically you didn't have to neck all your beer by 11pm, and without a media with nothing better to do that splash every drunken episode over the TV and newspapers.
The first hour I was in Copenhagen I met an extremely drunk, and extremely large gentleman, wearing a football shirt, watching a Tottenham game in a pub, and a couple of days later I saw the truly vast quantities being drunk on the terraces at a Bronby game.
I don't see the issue with having safe standing areas within a ground. Those coming out against make it sound like we'll all be forced into them. If you don't want to stand, just get a ticket for an area with seating. If you do want to stand, then instead of standing in J block and risking your own, and those in front of you safety, you can go in a nice safe standing area and get exactly what you want from the game.
So, let's get to the nub of the issue regarding a so-called "safe standing area".
You won't get many women in it because they can't easily watch the game over or around their taller /larger male counterparts; you won't get many children for a similar reason and because their parents won't think it's actually safe; you won't get any supporters who feel (rightly or wrongly) intimidated by large numbers of men singing and bouncing around; and you won't get many older supporters because they suffer from ailments that prevent them from standing comfortably for long periods.
So what is actually being asked for is an exclusive area for boisterous young men many of whom will have got boozed up before the match. I'd say that in many grounds, possibly including ours, such an area will have little chance of being "safe" at all and that therefore no sensible club would entertain the concept. (And maybe, post Hillsborough, liability insurers for the more crowded grounds in the top two divisions would take a similar view, making the concept impossible to implement.)
So, let's get to the nub of the issue regarding a so-called "safe standing area".
You won't get many women in it because they can't easily watch the game over or around their taller /larger male counterparts; you won't get many children for a similar reason and because their parents won't think it's actually safe; you won't get any supporters who feel (rightly or wrongly) intimidated by large numbers of men singing and bouncing around; and you won't get many older supporters because they suffer from ailments that prevent them from standing comfortably for long periods.
So what is actually being asked for is an exclusive area for boisterous young men many of whom will have got boozed up before the match. I'd say that in many grounds, possibly including ours, such an area will have little chance of being "safe" at all and that therefore no sensible club would entertain the concept. (And maybe, post Hillsborough, liability insurers for the more crowded grounds in the top two divisions would take a similar view, making the concept impossible to implement.)
I fear your being serious. Ever been to a game with terracing still in place? Loads of women and children stand to watch football every week below the Championship level. I was watching Maidstone United Saturday and there were more women and children stood than using the available seated stand.
Germans can handle there drink English people have two drinks and think they are Danny Dyer. Safe standing at modern stadiums should not be allowed and hopefully never will so will not be getting my vote.
Have you been to Germany? Or Holland, Denmark, Sweden? The above is a ridiculous statement, they aren't biologically different from us, they drink alcohol, they get drunk, just the same as us. The only possible difference it they have been brought up in countries where historically you didn't have to neck all your beer by 11pm, and without a media with nothing better to do that splash every drunken episode over the TV and newspapers.
The first hour I was in Copenhagen I met an extremely drunk, and extremely large gentleman, wearing a football shirt, watching a Tottenham game in a pub, and a couple of days later I saw the truly vast quantities being drunk on the terraces at a Bronby game.
I don't see the issue with having safe standing areas within a ground. Those coming out against make it sound like we'll all be forced into them. If you don't want to stand, just get a ticket for an area with seating. If you do want to stand, then instead of standing in J block and risking your own, and those in front of you safety, you can go in a nice safe standing area and get exactly what you want from the game.
Yes been to Germany, Sweden and Denmark thanks, all very nice countries felt very safe and was able to sit in my seat and drink beer whilst watching Munich play seeing as they haven't lost the privilege of that. If you go out in towns on a Friday or Saturday night in a English city you will see what I mean by that statement that is if you venture out on one of those nights.
Nope, never leave my house, scared of the outside world, so have never been near a pub or a town centre.
Oops, forgot, none of that is true. Hard as it is to believe, I'm not a total idiot and have some experience of the world.
So I take it your perfectly happy for tens of thousands of people to stand in seating areas up and down the country, risking the safety of those around them, rather than standing in a small area of each ground specifically designed for the purpose. That seems insane to me, so it's either force everybody to sit down (which would have to be all the time, no jumping up to celebrate, otherwise there's a whole complex issue around how much standing are you allowed, 1 minute in 10?), persist with the unsave status quo, or try something different that has had great success elsewhere.
Comments
I haven't been to the Britannia but I'd bet the times we've played there the atmosphere's also been mediocre.
If so would we need to reduce prices for the away fans? If this happened the financials are changed aren't they?
I don't, personally, want to stand. I don't, really, understand those that do. I also suspect that the authorities will never allow it. Unless I'm mistaken we (the British people) are going to be paying for holding an enquiry and compensating fans for the Hillsborough disaster for probably another twenty years. Why would any politition want to back this?
Just because I don't want to stand, and don't see why others would want to I don't have a problem with it, I just don't think it will happen and I think it is easy for people to lend their support to it safe in the knowledge that it won't happen. For this reason it gives the wrong impression about the amount if support it has with local MPs etc.
Please can someone raise their hand and say Ey, if they currently don't stand and sing but would do if there was terracing.
Fans make atmosphere, not grounds.
In addition most clubs will be against it as they will lose revenue (with the cost of removing seats, installing barriers and re-pro-filling steps) as well as having to reduce ticket prices with a reduced standing capacity to prevent the dangers of over crowding that used to occur.
The FA will also be against it because of the repercussions that an "event in hooligan Britain" would have with all the other authorities in EUFA and FIFA.
The police would be against it as it would be harder to identify troublemakers.
The stewards will be against it because of the problems in sorting out troublemakers.
Most football fans wont be bothered because they like sitting, or they have got used to being able to see the pitch (if they are shorter than 6ft or they take kids), or they like having the same seat each week, or they aren't used to standing (it been some years now). Probably only 30% of fans would be bothered and that wont be enough to overcome resistance or apathy of everyone else.
Personally I like standing (sadly I used to like the Sainsbury terrace at Palace mainly because it was cheap & deserted, and also the old East Terrace where some nights it was just me, my brothers and the peanut seller) but I'm over 6ft and lucky enough to remember seeing some of the game.
A couple of years ago for a birthday present I took my wife to Old Trafford for the Manchester derby, we were in the Stretford End, no one sat down for the entire match, whilst I am over six foot tall my wife is considerably shorter and her view, and enjoyment of the match were ruined.
Five years ago at an England international at Wembley, I was sitting right up in the gods when someone behind me stood up and subsequently ended up falling forwards and taking out those sitting in the five rows in front of him, including a pregnant lady and a young girl who was reduced to tears by the experience.
Modern stadiums are not designed for standing, the gradient of the seating, and the fact that the backs of the seats are just asking for people to trip over, make standing lethal.
Having said this I am the first to acknowledge the passion that goes with supporting your team. Yesterday I sat in the North Upper (M Block), as usual, the J Block regulars stood for virtually the whole game. I get to a few away games where standing seems to be the norm, and I have to accept that standing does tend to bring out a more vocal level of support.
I`m old enough to remember the early 80s, and standing on some right run down terraces. In my teens this viewed this as being good fun, and adding to the atmosphere. Upon reflection our stadiums were death traps (Anyone remember Plough Lane, Wimbledon?) and action had to be taken. Advocating anything which goes anywhere near the "good" old days is quite simply irresponsible and should never be even considered.
Personally I feel that it is decision time for the football authorities, there is a simple choice; either introduce staning areas for those who wish to stand, or, if not introducing such areas and remaining "all seating" then the clubs must robustly enforce "no standing" (Including the Stretford End, The Kop, and the North Upper J-Block!). At least then all fans will know where they stand (or sit!!)
So, all things considered, why don`t we give safe standing areas a try? With adequate provision for the location, structure and facilities within these areas, along with professional stewarding and a strict limit on spectator capacity surely they have the potential to be both safe, and popular. Like anything they can be introduced on a trial basis, with reduced capacities which can be increased if all goes well. It will be down to those occupying these areas to conduct themselves resonsibly and appropriately - or the seats will go back in.
So why not take a tentative step and give supporters a choice? Personally my standing days are behind me, and nowadays I enjoy the comfort of a seat. But the last thing I want to see is a passionate, exuberant Charlton fan falling headfirst from Row UU in The J-Block.
I think the FSA should focus on the elephant in the room - the HSE argument. That is, that it is inherently unsafe to allow people to stand in seated areas. I don't buy the argument, incidentally, and I doubt any stats would back it up, but I understand that the regulations state that supporters in seated areas must be seated. They need to get someone of influence to acknowledge there's a problem, so that the obvious solution can be put forward to those who can effect the change.
You see on the basis of an HSE problem, it might be reasonable to request funding support to the clubs in the same way that the Football Foundation (was it?) funded the ground developments after the Taylor report. This is where the business case really starts to come together.
This is clearly a massively important time for the trust, with the launch in a couple of weeks, and I would have thought the main priority would be getting the numbers up to increase legitimacy and standing with the club. Whatever your views on safe standing, it is clearly a highly divisive issue (as demonstrated by this thread), and I can't help but wonder whether it might not be better to steer clear at this stage?
As someone who will be keen to join the Trust myself, I would hate to see others put off because they don't support a particular stance on standing.
The big one on the horizon for the Trust is of course our AGM early next year, but would you also have us concentrate on process alone and ignore contemporary ideas that might help our club?
It's an interesting question which we hope to answer when we will be surveying fans shortly again with survey II to see what issues are actually important to them that Trust could look at. Having said that we aren't going to be able to please everyone I am sure.
But also join as a full member in order to vote and stand at our AGM.
I think it's great that you're taking the time and effort to survey fans and spread the word in order to find out what the members want - I think this will be the key to the success of the Trust. Personally I would have no objection whatsoever to questions about safe standing being included on a future survey. I was just concerned from your earlier post that it seemed like a decision had already been taken to support this without consulting the members, and was worried that this might put some people off.
Of course you can never please everyone, but I would think that most people would respect the wishes of the majority in most cases.
We completely understand that we are open to criticism ideally balanced and well argued, and hopefully we can answer that.
At the same time we are working extremly hard on this, you would not believe how much efforts sometimes goes into these things.
Thank you for your support, I just want to know if DRF has signed up? Or is he just going to maintain a 'devil's advocate' role?
You won't get many women in it because they can't easily watch the game over or around their taller /larger male counterparts; you won't get many children for a similar reason and because their parents won't think it's actually safe; you won't get any supporters who feel (rightly or wrongly) intimidated by large numbers of men singing and bouncing around; and you won't get many older supporters because they suffer from ailments that prevent them from standing comfortably for long periods.
So what is actually being asked for is an exclusive area for boisterous young men many of whom will have got boozed up before the match. I'd say that in many grounds, possibly including ours, such an area will have little chance of being "safe" at all and that therefore no sensible club would entertain the concept.
(And maybe, post Hillsborough, liability insurers for the more crowded grounds in the top two divisions would take a similar view, making the concept impossible to implement.)
The irony is that Charlton could carry it off but how many other London clubs? Arsenal, Fulham
The model for running clubs in the UK (&US) is very different to Europe - perhaps there are other areas to look at as per Prague's article in the New trust newsletter???
The first hour I was in Copenhagen I met an extremely drunk, and extremely large gentleman, wearing a football shirt, watching a Tottenham game in a pub, and a couple of days later I saw the truly vast quantities being drunk on the terraces at a Bronby game.
I don't see the issue with having safe standing areas within a ground. Those coming out against make it sound like we'll all be forced into them. If you don't want to stand, just get a ticket for an area with seating. If you do want to stand, then instead of standing in J block and risking your own, and those in front of you safety, you can go in a nice safe standing area and get exactly what you want from the game.
Oops, forgot, none of that is true. Hard as it is to believe, I'm not a total idiot and have some experience of the world.
So I take it your perfectly happy for tens of thousands of people to stand in seating areas up and down the country, risking the safety of those around them, rather than standing in a small area of each ground specifically designed for the purpose. That seems insane to me, so it's either force everybody to sit down (which would have to be all the time, no jumping up to celebrate, otherwise there's a whole complex issue around how much standing are you allowed, 1 minute in 10?), persist with the unsave status quo, or try something different that has had great success elsewhere.