[cite]Posted By: Rothko[/cite]They've been ignoring the safe and sucessful systems in Germany for the past 5 years
because they aren't workable in our existing stadia
we have many old stadia that were terraced & are now seated, a lot of time & money went in to changing them when the law changed & now we're expecting them to adapt them back again????
in a world when you can't sneeze without writing a risk assessment putting standing areas in existing old stadia is a long way off becoming a reality because no one has come up with a workable plan
it's the new stadia you need to get at first, a new development should consider putting it in their plans & testing the authorities. I'd be very interested to see what would happen then.
[cite]Posted By: Rothko[/cite]They've been ignoring the safe and sucessful systems in Germany for the past 5 years
because they aren't workable in our existing stadia
we have many old stadia that were terraced & are now seated, a lot of time & money went in to changing them when the law changed & now we're expecting them to adapt them back again????
in a world when you can't sneeze without writing a risk assessment putting standing areas in existing old stadia is a long way off becoming a reality because no one has come up with a workable plan
it's the new stadia you need to get at first, a new development should consider putting it in their plans & testing the authorities. I'd be very interested to see what would happen then.
But the law should be changed to allow clubs the option?
The present law doesn't allow clubs to make that business assesment in the first place, let alone a safety one. The FLA have said the German system is safe, but use an arguement that the law shouldn't change, cause clubs wouldn't want it anyway.
We're one of the clubs offering to do it, so let the law change, and the market decide
Rothers
The law won't change until there is a workable solution. The FLA have agreed that the German system is safe yes, but where have they agreed that it could work over here?
& who from our Club has offered to do it? Have they drawn up a plan that would pass all H&S & comply with laws that govern the safety certificate?????
Peter Varney has said that the club would convert the lower north to Safe Standing.
The FLA said it could work too, but they don't want the market to decide, which is wrong.
They allow standing to remain in the lower leagues, and at Rugby Stadiums.
However they're currently using a big stick in other sports, and with St Helens, to force the new ground to be all seater, which is wrong, consider Salford and Warrington have safe Stadning.
Funny then that when I've spoken to the FLA they state that no one has come to them with a workable solution isn't it.
I don't think you can equate Football to other sports I'm afraid, as you & I both know the support are made up of different elements.
They allow standing in the lower leagues because getting them to convert to all seater is financially impossible.
[cite]Posted By: les_says[/cite]and how many kids started watching football standing on the terraces? some people seem to forget this game existed before sky sports and euro 96.
Come on mate! What a ridiculous comment.
We have seated stands. It's not the fans fault. You just have to go with the flow at the moment.
why is it ridiculous? it's not the theatre, people will stand up at football, seats or no seats - 'the flow' at the moment is charlton fans arguing amongst themselves cos two type of fans want a different experience. we have to deal with this situation through a different ticket allocation system cos this conflict isn't doing the team or fans any good. football is a highly emotive experience for the majority of fans, you won't be able to enforce a consensus of respect and discipline for thousands of people in an enclosed area during 90 minutes of football, especially when we're in the midst of a relegation battle.
It's ridiclous because you are taking the whole thing out of context mate. I want to stand, I love it, but the way things are we can't. Also some people want to sit, that's their right. The law is with them. I had my 11 year old son with me and he would have stood all game if he could. Not even stood, he'd have jumped around clapping and chanting if he could as that is what he likes.
Of course it's not a theatre or such.
We all know that successive governments and governing bodies have done their best to contain the football fan. Watford were geared up to sort out the standers from the off. Until something else is sorted you just have to show some respect for others.
what i'm arguing for is choice because of what happened on saturday and at other games this season. the long term aim has to be safe standing for those who want it but in the short term surely the club can diffuse the situtation by allocation, this will benefit both type of fan. as large said, it might have to be a round about way to avoid any encouragement by the club to stand but it's better than what we have now. the last thing we want is either fan not wanting to go away games because of this row.
I just wonder out of interest how many of those fans telling people that they lack commitment if they prefer to sit
a) went to Spurs away
b) if they did go stayed until the end.
I don't want to moralise because I enjoy a drink as much as the next man. It does seem though from my, admittedly irregular experience, that a minority of the away support drinks to excess and then behaves in an obnoxious fashion to whoever has the misfortune to be near them.
I have to say, as somebody who attends matches with his daughter, it makes me think twice about travelling away even if i could afford it often.
[cite]Posted By: pork_pie[/cite]A woman near me asked a kid in front of her to sit down, and she got the predictable volley of abuse. That's why people don't "have a word" with the offender....
The way to deal with the legitimate desire for fans to be able to stand at games is not by standing in seated areas. I find it hard to take the attitude of those who think they have got the right to stand, against the rules just because they can. The argument that just because you stand, you care more about the club or are more passionate is also wrong. Those who think its big to criticise "siddarns" should really take a moment to think what they are advocating. Trying to get seats allocated at the back to those who want to stand may be a cute idea but it will not work in practice because you are asking the club to condone something that is not allowed on safety grounds. They will not do this.
Lets get behind the campaign to bring back safe standing areas and stop picking fights with supporters who have an absolute right to see the game from a seated position.
I would prefer to stand. I would also like Lisbie to score from time to time but he doesn't. That's life. It's also a fact of life that you get older. So let's hope that those of you that stand in a seated area containing older people who CAN NOT physically stand for 90 minutes, get old in turn, and then cannot physically watch their team in the future because a new obnoxious younger generation is not paying them the slightest piece of attention.
Being old, by the way, does not entitle you to disabled status.
[quote][cite]Posted By: Rothko[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: KBslittlesis[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: Rothko[/cite]They've been ignoring the safe and sucessful systems in Germany for the past 5 years[/quote]
because they aren't workable in our existing stadia we have many old stadia that were terraced & are now seated, a lot of time & money went in to changing them when the law changed & now we're expecting them to adapt them back again???? in a world when you can't sneeze without writing a risk assessment putting standing areas in existing old stadia is a long way off becoming a reality because no one has come up with a workable plan
it's the new stadia you need to get at first, a new development should consider putting it in their plans & testing the authorities. I'd be very interested to see what would happen then.[/quote]
But the law should be changed to allow clubs the option?
The present law doesn't allow clubs to make that business assesment in the first place, let alone a safety one. The FLA have said the German system is safe, but use an arguement that the law shouldn't change, cause clubs wouldn't want it anyway.
We're one of the clubs offering to do it, so let the law change, and the market decide[/quote]
I went to the old Bayern stadium a couple of years ago and they had safe standing behind the goals. So i dont think new stadia has anything to do with it. The clubs don't want to force the issue because the game gone away from the fans and is solely run by the money men. But if the recent decline in attendances continues then who knows. If the areas are stewarded correctly then why not have standing back at football grounds. I used to love being at the back of the North Bank at Upton Park, couldnt always see mind you, with being only 5ft 4. But the Saturday experience was brilliant, i enjoy football better standing up. Just imagine in the South Stand, Away fans next to the home fans.
One, to quote, make sure you select "BBCode" from the "Format comments as" menu below to ensure the quoted text renders properly.
And two, never refer to the Jimmy Seed Stand as the South Stand, or the Supporters' Director will hunt you down and wash your mouth out with soap. It's a pet peeve of his (and rightly so Henry!) ;-)
Sorry to not have responded earlier. If I offended by standing anyone, here or elsewhere, then I apologise. Maybe, in hindsight , I shouldn't have done it in the first place but you can't turn back time. As ever Suzi gives a level headed and balanced arguement with which it is hard to disagree.
And two,neverrefer to the Jimmy Seed Stand as the South Stand, or the Supporters' Director will hunt you down and wash your mouth out with soap. It's a pet peeve of his (and rightly so Henry!) ;-)
[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]Sorry to not have responded earlier. If I offended by standing anyone, here or elsewhere, then I apologise. Maybe, in hindsight , I shouldn't have done it in the first place but you can't turn back time. As ever Suzi gives a level headed and balanced arguement with which it is hard to disagree.
Standing in a seated area is only a problem if you obstruct the view of people behind you who wish to remain seated.
In those circumstances then you should sit down if asked in my opinion.
[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]Sorry to not have responded earlier. If I offended by standing anyone, here or elsewhere, then I apologise. Maybe, in hindsight , I shouldn't have done it in the first place but you can't turn back time. As ever Suzi gives a level headed and balanced arguement with which it is hard to disagree.
Standing in a seated area is only a problem if you obstruct the view of people behind you who wish to remain seated.
In those circumstances then you should sit down if asked in my opinion.
Thats the polite thing to do Len and polite people will no doubt do what you suggest. What if those who are in front of you are pissed and loutish, and the people behind may not feel they can ask? If they do ask, they may get an earful for their trouble and lead to the kind of arguments which started this thread. I really think it's folly to go down this route of "it's alright until somebody moans line". That only works if people are respectful and not everyone is I'm afraid. For me the only way to deal with this is for stewards to enforce the sitting down rule and for a continued campaign for safe standing.
In general though most CAFC fans are reasonable. I was one of those people standing near the front & had had plenty to drink, however after the first five or ten minutes I was asked to siddarn which I did without dishing out any verbals. On the whole most of are fans are pretty reasonable.
Comments
because they aren't workable in our existing stadia
we have many old stadia that were terraced & are now seated, a lot of time & money went in to changing them when the law changed & now we're expecting them to adapt them back again????
in a world when you can't sneeze without writing a risk assessment putting standing areas in existing old stadia is a long way off becoming a reality because no one has come up with a workable plan
it's the new stadia you need to get at first, a new development should consider putting it in their plans & testing the authorities. I'd be very interested to see what would happen then.
But the law should be changed to allow clubs the option?
The present law doesn't allow clubs to make that business assesment in the first place, let alone a safety one. The FLA have said the German system is safe, but use an arguement that the law shouldn't change, cause clubs wouldn't want it anyway.
We're one of the clubs offering to do it, so let the law change, and the market decide
The law won't change until there is a workable solution. The FLA have agreed that the German system is safe yes, but where have they agreed that it could work over here?
& who from our Club has offered to do it? Have they drawn up a plan that would pass all H&S & comply with laws that govern the safety certificate?????
The FLA said it could work too, but they don't want the market to decide, which is wrong.
They allow standing to remain in the lower leagues, and at Rugby Stadiums.
However they're currently using a big stick in other sports, and with St Helens, to force the new ground to be all seater, which is wrong, consider Salford and Warrington have safe Stadning.
I don't think you can equate Football to other sports I'm afraid, as you & I both know the support are made up of different elements.
They allow standing in the lower leagues because getting them to convert to all seater is financially impossible.
what i'm arguing for is choice because of what happened on saturday and at other games this season. the long term aim has to be safe standing for those who want it but in the short term surely the club can diffuse the situtation by allocation, this will benefit both type of fan. as large said, it might have to be a round about way to avoid any encouragement by the club to stand but it's better than what we have now. the last thing we want is either fan not wanting to go away games because of this row.
a) went to Spurs away
b) if they did go stayed until the end.
I don't want to moralise because I enjoy a drink as much as the next man. It does seem though from my, admittedly irregular experience, that a minority of the away support drinks to excess and then behaves in an obnoxious fashion to whoever has the misfortune to be near them.
I have to say, as somebody who attends matches with his daughter, it makes me think twice about travelling away even if i could afford it often.
Indeed I am....
Lets get behind the campaign to bring back safe standing areas and stop picking fights with supporters who have an absolute right to see the game from a seated position.
Being old, by the way, does not entitle you to disabled status.
because they aren't workable in our existing stadia
we have many old stadia that were terraced & are now seated, a lot of time & money went in to changing them when the law changed & now we're expecting them to adapt them back again????
in a world when you can't sneeze without writing a risk assessment putting standing areas in existing old stadia is a long way off becoming a reality because no one has come up with a workable plan
it's the new stadia you need to get at first, a new development should consider putting it in their plans & testing the authorities. I'd be very interested to see what would happen then.[/quote]
But the law should be changed to allow clubs the option?
The present law doesn't allow clubs to make that business assesment in the first place, let alone a safety one. The FLA have said the German system is safe, but use an arguement that the law shouldn't change, cause clubs wouldn't want it anyway.
We're one of the clubs offering to do it, so let the law change, and the market decide[/quote]
I went to the old Bayern stadium a couple of years ago and they had safe standing behind the goals. So i dont think new stadia has anything to do with it. The clubs don't want to force the issue because the game gone away from the fans and is solely run by the money men. But if the recent decline in attendances continues then who knows. If the areas are stewarded correctly then why not have standing back at football grounds. I used to love being at the back of the North Bank at Upton Park, couldnt always see mind you, with being only 5ft 4. But the Saturday experience was brilliant, i enjoy football better standing up. Just imagine in the South Stand, Away fans next to the home fans.
One, to quote, make sure you select "BBCode" from the "Format comments as" menu below to ensure the quoted text renders properly.
And two, never refer to the Jimmy Seed Stand as the South Stand, or the Supporters' Director will hunt you down and wash your mouth out with soap. It's a pet peeve of his (and rightly so Henry!) ;-)
No need when you've done it for me, Adam.
Standing in a seated area is only a problem if you obstruct the view of people behind you who wish to remain seated.
In those circumstances then you should sit down if asked in my opinion.
Thats the polite thing to do Len and polite people will no doubt do what you suggest. What if those who are in front of you are pissed and loutish, and the people behind may not feel they can ask? If they do ask, they may get an earful for their trouble and lead to the kind of arguments which started this thread. I really think it's folly to go down this route of "it's alright until somebody moans line". That only works if people are respectful and not everyone is I'm afraid. For me the only way to deal with this is for stewards to enforce the sitting down rule and for a continued campaign for safe standing.