Wouldnt it be nice to see a programme that highlights the good football does...
Agreed, maybe they could feature a large group of asian supporters following their club and everyone mixing in with them, getting involved with their band/drummer and generally accepting them just as other fans of the club.....oh hang on...
Documentary on BBC 3 about Usain Bolt's rivals at the forthcoming games now. Spent the last 10 minutes going on about the french sprinter and going on about him being white and the only white man to run sub ten seconds.
The beeb seem to be fixated with race...let it bloody go!!! He's a sprinter why patronise him for his colour. As his coach said he couldnt care less that he's the fastest ever white sprinter because "He's not racist" and then said he doesnt care for such meaningless accolades.
Really some ridiculous irrelevant focus in some sections of the media nowdays.
Documentary on BBC 3 about Usain Bolt's rivals at the forthcoming games now. Spent the last 10 minutes going on about the french sprinter and going on about him being white and the only white man to run sub ten seconds.
The beeb seem to be fixated with race...let it bloody go!!! He's a sprinter why patronise him for his colour. As his coach said he couldnt care less that he's the fastest ever white sprinter because "He's not racist" and then said he doesnt care for such meaningless accolades.
Really some ridiculous irrelevant focus in some sections of the media nowdays.
The race relations 'industry' is a subtle form of divide and rule. Accentuate the differences in society and deflect attention from the real problem, the national decay brought about by the greed and avarice of the 'ruling classes' of all shades, colours and creeds at the expense of the hoi poloi, composed of equally multi hued but essentially powerless people. The British ruling classes have been the experts at divide and rule for centuries. The BBC, for all its excellence and wide ranging exploits, is and always has been an essential propaganda outlet for the powers that be.
Wouldn't it be nice if we just looked at others as just people. Good people, bad people, nice people, horrible people, whatever but just people.
Agree and I think the vast majority of people do in the main....it's just the well meaning media and politicians (our betters) that seem to think we are incapable of doing so without being constantly told how to think and behave. And I do agree with elements also of what Lincs says above.
why should any Club go out of its way to attract black, brown, yellow or purple people?
For sound business reasons? If there are thousands of potential visitors to The Valley who don't come because of a perception that they won't be welcome, then it makes sense to advertise and change that perception (within sensible costs of course).
I would hope that Target 40k etc considered all those groups under-represented and worked at what we would do to get more people through the turnstiles. I bet Millwall do the same, but with probably a different focus
The media seems so fixated nowadays in making sure that they are not deemed racist towards black people that they seem quite happy to be boarder line racist towards white people, as this won't stir up such a negative reaction.
It should not be difficult to understand that the man/woman most qualified for a job should be the one who gets the position, however this seems to be a concept lost on both white and black people.
why should any Club go out of its way to attract black, brown, yellow or purple people?
For sound business reasons? If there are thousands of potential visitors to The Valley who don't come because of a perception that they won't be welcome, then it makes sense to advertise and change that perception (within sensible costs of course).
I would hope that Target 40k etc considered all those groups under-represented and worked at what we would do to get more people through the turnstiles. I bet Millwall do the same, but with probably a different focus
Everyone is welcome once they support Charlton - and we should work with all groups .......race should not come in to it --and is football Racist --matter of opinion if people want it to be then it will be ...........if you love the game for what is ---then not at all .....love the game or we will kill it ---roll on the 18th
why should any Club go out of its way to attract black, brown, yellow or purple people?
For sound business reasons? If there are thousands of potential visitors to The Valley who don't come because of a perception that they won't be welcome, then it makes sense to advertise and change that perception (within sensible costs of course).
I would hope that Target 40k etc considered all those groups under-represented and worked at what we would do to get more people through the turnstiles. I bet Millwall do the same, but with probably a different focus
I think it is patronising that you feel that people who are not white need to be seeked out and encouraged to go to football matches, rather than targeting specific groups surely it would be easier to simply make it clear that football in this country is available to all, come if you want and if you don't want to then never mind.
why should any Club go out of its way to attract black, brown, yellow or purple people?
For sound business reasons? If there are thousands of potential visitors to The Valley who don't come because of a perception that they won't be welcome, then it makes sense to advertise and change that perception (within sensible costs of course).
I would hope that Target 40k etc considered all those groups under-represented and worked at what we would do to get more people through the turnstiles. I bet Millwall do the same, but with probably a different focus
I think it is patronising that you feel that people who are not white need to be seeked out and encouraged to go to football matches, rather than targeting specific groups surely it would be easier to simply make it clear that football in this country is available to all, come if you want and if you don't want to then never mind.
I don't think the John Barnes issue was the most important bit. It did occur to me that JB was just a sh*t manager and he couldn't come to terms with that, and I thought that he did a disservice to the programme.
The experience of Carlisle's own dad, the perception of many people that a football match is not a safe place for them to be, because of historical experience of racism and the presence of organised far right factions on the terraces is a fact. We can say "well, everybody's welcome these days" and leave it at that, or we can recognise that the damage caused by racism in the past has repercussions today for clubs and their supporters and the communities who are excluded or who self-exclude because of that, and maybe try to address that so that, for instance Asian communities will feel that their local club is a good and welcoming place for them to be. I think that Charlton have done brilliant work in this area, and hopefully will do still more.
Hate racism but didn't think it was a very good doc.
The most interesting and saddest part of it was how racism potentially blocked Clark Carlises dad's dream of being a pro footballer.
We only heard of John Barnes experience describing how hard it is for a black man to get a managers job. I didn't agree with anything Barnes said, that was all rubbish and perhaps he is just personally a bit frustrated he can't get a managers job.
why should any Club go out of its way to attract black, brown, yellow or purple people?
For sound business reasons? If there are thousands of potential visitors to The Valley who don't come because of a perception that they won't be welcome, then it makes sense to advertise and change that perception (within sensible costs of course).
I would hope that Target 40k etc considered all those groups under-represented and worked at what we would do to get more people through the turnstiles. I bet Millwall do the same, but with probably a different focus
I think it is patronising that you feel that people who are not white need to be seeked out and encouraged to go to football matches, rather than targeting specific groups surely it would be easier to simply make it clear that football in this country is available to all, come if you want and if you don't want to then never mind.
Yes, it is marketing - an untapped resourse -do you just ignore it and try not to attract it. We have come along way but we have to deal with perceptions that have built up over a long period,
Rightly or wrongly, when my son comes to Charlton with his Trinidadian girlfriend I am worried that someone will make a racist comment. I'm glad to report that it hasn't happened yet and she is becoming more of a fan every time she comes to a game.
Just watched the programme and I think my comments about it were a trifle unfair. I thought it was pretty balanced.
How can it be balanced when Carlisle didn't even challenge Barnes with the facts of his poor record?
Or do any research on the two asian kids?
He just accepted what he was told and walked off shaking his head, whilst everyone watching will take it as gospel.
Sorry Sparrows but I disagree. With regard to the two Asian lads I think Carlisle's focus was on the fact that he had never encountered any player who played for never mind captained their County side without being associated with a professional club.
why should any Club go out of its way to attract black, brown, yellow or purple people?
For sound business reasons? If there are thousands of potential visitors to The Valley who don't come because of a perception that they won't be welcome, then it makes sense to advertise and change that perception (within sensible costs of course).
I would hope that Target 40k etc considered all those groups under-represented and worked at what we would do to get more people through the turnstiles. I bet Millwall do the same, but with probably a different focus
I think it is patronising that you feel that people who are not white need to be seeked out and encouraged to go to football matches, rather than targeting specific groups surely it would be easier to simply make it clear that football in this country is available to all, come if you want and if you don't want to then never mind.
Could not agree more Sidcup --well said
Patronising? It's called marketing.
From a business point of view though the club will market towards white males as that is our main audience. If we were to advertise to more minority markets then the club would first want to know whether the potential is there to make the money spent on the project worth it. We do not know for sure that all of these minority groups would even be interested in regularly watching football matches. This must be considered before the club goes and spends loads of money on something that may achieve little.
Just watched the programme and I think my comments about it were a trifle unfair. I thought it was pretty balanced.
How can it be balanced when Carlisle didn't even challenge Barnes with the facts of his poor record?
Or do any research on the two asian kids?
He just accepted what he was told and walked off shaking his head, whilst everyone watching will take it as gospel.
I agree with Sparrows on this, we dont know anything about the Asian players. For all we know a club may have taking them on and they blew there chance for whatever reason. I disagree with people saying clubs aren't doing enough to encourage certain groups to turn up for games. I think certain groups will never go to Football games for whatever reason just as I will probably never go to a Mosque, not because I feel I will be racially abused but because It doesn't intrest me. Comments are made everyday in society and that will never stop, I remember once walking through London one afternoon and this black kid walking behind me shouting die White boy and pointing a make believe gun at me.
Just watched the programme and I think my comments about it were a trifle unfair. I thought it was pretty balanced.
How can it be balanced when Carlisle didn't even challenge Barnes with the facts of his poor record?
Or do any research on the two asian kids?
He just accepted what he was told and walked off shaking his head, whilst everyone watching will take it as gospel.
Sorry Sparrows but I disagree. With regard to the two Asian lads I think Carlisle's focus was on the fact that he had never encountered any player who played for never mind captained their County side without being associated with a professional club.
Again, it proves my point. Out of all the County sides at all age groups over the past 30 years, how many of those players & captains does he know? 5? 10? There must be thousands.
He only had to look at the Kent side from about 98 which had many players not with clubs.
It was an opinion based on the knowledge he had, which isn't a lot is it.
I don't think the topic is important Sparrows as you appear to have answerd the question. If black players retire and don't bother to take up a coaching course that will progress them in the game once they have hung up their boots that is thier choice.
I think the issue has been that black players have felt they haven't got a chance on the coaching or management side so haven't even attempted to do their badges etc.
Football is still very much about who you know, perhaps black players have always felt managers etc were more pally with the white players etc and wouldn't get a job ahead of them when they retired.
The point about demographics and senior positions reflecting past generations rather than present is also relevant to wider society, not just football.
The problem is that you can't test whether football (or any other industry) is racist or not simply by the numbers of black managers. At the very least you need to compare the ratio of success of black applicants/candidates against that of non-blacks. I doubt this statistic even exists, and if - for whatever reason - there are indeed fewer black applicants this may actually disprove the racism hypothesis statistically speaking.
To be fair to John Barnes he played during an era where racism from the terraces was the norm - the photograph that epitomises the problem was of him backheeling a banana thrown at him. But the fact that he played at a club like Liverpool, and for England, suggests that the colour of his skin wasn't a problem for football managers and boards. And certainly being given the chance to manage Celtic as a rookie doesn't support any contention of racism regarding his appointments. What is certain is that he's failed every managerial job he's had. Celtic was one thing but Tranmere showed for me why he wasn't cut out for management, totally failing to acknowledge the limitations of his players and trying to get them to emulate Dalglish's 80s Liverpool.
The fact is that clubs want good managers; if you're crap, white or black you won't be first in line for any job.
I think that if you take our club as an example, we have moved in leaps and strides from when I first started supporting them. In the 70's and 80's it was a common occurance to hear racist comments from the crowd. I nearly packed in going it got so bad - now if you look at the club we have a black manager- black coach and a good number of black players. You don't hear any racist comments. This has been achieved partly by a changing society but also the efforts of the club and its fans and I doubt we would have got there if we shrugged our shoulders and said it wasn't possible. The next challenge for the club, I think is to get more black supporters in the ground. Would be interesting to hear Airman's views on that challenge. Surely we are in the best position we have ever been to attract interest from all communities.
I wish this was true, but it was only a few seasons back that the 2 blokes behind me spent a whole game calling Lisbie a monkey and a chimp
Thank God we comment on this because it's the minority now. We should still challenge it though.
Wouldn't it be nice if we just looked at others as just people. Good people, bad people, nice people, horrible people, whatever but just people.
Where's the like button when you need it
But it will never happen when almost everything we do is coded by colour & race; fill in a form and you have to denote you race/colour, media still describes people as black, etc, other things like Black Police Association, Black History Month, MOBO's etc etc I understand why it's developed but it does make colour more prominent and makes clear distinctions between people based on colour.
I agree that Barnes was rubbish at Tranmere and would have been sacked if he was white, but he aired his views and the passive racism comments were interesting. I mean, I have read what I deem passive racism on this post - I may have made some myself!
When you say, there may not be much point marketing to minority Groups because they are not interested
Comments
I too remember AJ playing for Leeds but thought he'd retired by 1972. I temporarily forgot that he joined York.
The beeb seem to be fixated with race...let it bloody go!!! He's a sprinter why patronise him for his colour. As his coach said he couldnt care less that he's the fastest ever white sprinter because "He's not racist" and then said he doesnt care for such meaningless accolades.
Really some ridiculous irrelevant focus in some sections of the media nowdays.
Looked on wikipedia and it said Alan wells ran 100m in 9.2 in edinburgh in 1980 but it was wind assisted.
The British ruling classes have been the experts at divide and rule for centuries. The BBC, for all its excellence and wide ranging exploits, is and always has been an essential propaganda outlet for the powers that be.
I would hope that Target 40k etc considered all those groups under-represented and worked at what we would do to get more people through the turnstiles. I bet Millwall do the same, but with probably a different focus
It should not be difficult to understand that the man/woman most qualified for a job should be the one who gets the position, however this seems to be a concept lost on both white and black people.
I think it is patronising that you feel that people who are not white need to be seeked out and encouraged to go to football matches, rather than targeting specific groups surely it would be easier to simply make it clear that football in this country is available to all, come if you want and if you don't want to then never mind.
Or do any research on the two asian kids?
He just accepted what he was told and walked off shaking his head, whilst everyone watching will take it as gospel.
The experience of Carlisle's own dad, the perception of many people that a football match is not a safe place for them to be, because of historical experience of racism and the presence of organised far right factions on the terraces is a fact. We can say "well, everybody's welcome these days" and leave it at that, or we can recognise that the damage caused by racism in the past has repercussions today for clubs and their supporters and the communities who are excluded or who self-exclude because of that, and maybe try to address that so that, for instance Asian communities will feel that their local club is a good and welcoming place for them to be. I think that Charlton have done brilliant work in this area, and hopefully will do still more.
The most interesting and saddest part of it was how racism potentially blocked Clark Carlises dad's dream of being a pro footballer.
We only heard of John Barnes experience describing how hard it is for a black man to get a managers job. I didn't agree with anything Barnes said, that was all rubbish and perhaps he is just personally a bit frustrated he can't get a managers job.
I would hope that Target 40k etc considered all those groups under-represented and worked at what we would do to get more people through the turnstiles. I bet Millwall do the same, but with probably a different focus
I think it is patronising that you feel that people who are not white need to be seeked out and encouraged to go to football matches, rather than targeting specific groups surely it would be easier to simply make it clear that football in this country is available to all, come if you want and if you don't want to then never mind.
Could not agree more Sidcup --well said
Patronising? It's called marketing.
Sorry Sparrows but I disagree. With regard to the two Asian lads I think Carlisle's focus was on the fact that he had never encountered any player who played for never mind captained their County side without being associated with a professional club.
I think it is patronising that you feel that people who are not white need to be seeked out and encouraged to go to football matches, rather than targeting specific groups surely it would be easier to simply make it clear that football in this country is available to all, come if you want and if you don't want to then never mind.
Could not agree more Sidcup --well said
Patronising? It's called marketing.
From a business point of view though the club will market towards white males as that is our main audience. If we were to advertise to more minority markets then the club would first want to know whether the potential is there to make the money spent on the project worth it. We do not know for sure that all of these minority groups would even be interested in regularly watching football matches. This must be considered before the club goes and spends loads of money on something that may achieve little.
Again, it proves my point. Out of all the County sides at all age groups over the past 30 years, how many of those players & captains does he know?
5? 10? There must be thousands.
He only had to look at the Kent side from about 98 which had many players not with clubs.
It was an opinion based on the knowledge he had, which isn't a lot is it.
Football is still very much about who you know, perhaps black players have always felt managers etc were more pally with the white players etc and wouldn't get a job ahead of them when they retired.
The point about demographics and senior positions reflecting past generations rather than present is also relevant to wider society, not just football.
The problem is that you can't test whether football (or any other industry) is racist or not simply by the numbers of black managers. At the very least you need to compare the ratio of success of black applicants/candidates against that of non-blacks. I doubt this statistic even exists, and if - for whatever reason - there are indeed fewer black applicants this may actually disprove the racism hypothesis statistically speaking.
To be fair to John Barnes he played during an era where racism from the terraces was the norm - the photograph that epitomises the problem was of him backheeling a banana thrown at him. But the fact that he played at a club like Liverpool, and for England, suggests that the colour of his skin wasn't a problem for football managers and boards. And certainly being given the chance to manage Celtic as a rookie doesn't support any contention of racism regarding his appointments. What is certain is that he's failed every managerial job he's had. Celtic was one thing but Tranmere showed for me why he wasn't cut out for management, totally failing to acknowledge the limitations of his players and trying to get them to emulate Dalglish's 80s Liverpool.
The fact is that clubs want good managers; if you're crap, white or black you won't be first in line for any job.
Thank God we comment on this because it's the minority now. We should still challenge it though.
When you say, there may not be much point marketing to minority Groups because they are not interested