Wouldnt it be nice to see a programme that highlights the good football does.
I think negativity has become ingrained in our culture mate. Most news stories tend to focus on negative and bad things and overlook the many good things out in the world occuring on an hourly basis.
Just looking at this forum with all it's "Worst XXXX" threads and overbearing negative focus on this and on a lot of football forums in general gives the impression that people are more comfortable being miserable and pointing out the bad in things than focusing on the good and I put myself in that bracket too.
I think you could make a very positive programme about the transformation at our club but would it be of interest to TV companies - as has been said- I fear not.
Barnes just seemed to making excuses for himself being sacked and his excuse was all club owners are subconsciously racist and don't want to employ black people in the 1st place and they get sacked sooner than white managers. Just totally covering up the fact that he was awful in all the jobs he had. I mean just look at SCP he had a shite start with us but we kept him and went on to get promoted. Barnes is talking s**t.
Just watched it, completely dis agree with John Barnes, I would have responded to him the reason you got sacked was you were shit at your job at Tranmere not because you are black. I do feel this could turn into a met police situation where we employ someone as top chief not because he is a good at his job but because of the colour of his skin.
People complaining that the programme lacked depth, detail and hard-hitting opinions: It was on BBC Three?
The channel that screens gritty investigative shows such as: 'Snog, Marry, Avoid', 'Don't Tell the Bride' and 'World's Craziest Fools' (featuring Mr. T).
This is exactly the kind of programe and debate that most black people find both patronising and condisending!
This from someone who didn't even see it. When the subject concerns racism, you would do well to take a back seat. Or shall we trot out your post on Charlton Loyal again, this time in full...?
Sparrow had the mark of this programme, lazy & disingenuous,ultimately doing the subject matter a disservice .
The name of the program is enough, not a month goes by without some sort of race related investigative documentary being shown and as a few people have already said, none of them help.
@Redmist, is that how you stifle debate, with threats of blackmail? Post whatever you want lad, I honestly don't give a fuck!
This is exactly the kind of programe and debate that most black people find both patronising and condisending!
This from someone who didn't even see it. When the subject concerns racism, you would do well to take a back seat. Or shall we trot out your post on Charlton Loyal again, this time in full...?
Sparrow had the mark of this programme, lazy & disingenuous,ultimately doing the subject matter a disservice .
The name of the program is enough, not a month goes by without some sort of race related investigative documentary being shown and as a few people have already said, none of them help.
@Redmist, is that how you stifle debate, with threats of blackmail? Post whatever you want lad, I honestly don't give a fuck!
Judging by the posts (tweets?) made regarding the Liverpool Suarez situation, there are some very nasty people out there. They may be a minority, they may hide behind supposed anonymity, but they are there. Perhaps they are the exposed tip of a bigger iceberg which still judges footballers by the colour of their skin rather than their ability. One little thing to remember is that Atkinson at WBA was lauded for 'the three degrees' and then made that comment about Desially (?), a lot of people may be in disguise regarding this matter. I felt quite touched by the scene when Carlisle asked his dad about his experiences. Did anybody ever see that undercover documentary (some years ago now) when two journalists in their twenties went to Bristol, one black and one white and the different way they were treated in identical circumstances? I don't blame black and other ethnic minority folk being uncertain as to whether a friendly approach is genuine. It may well work both ways, but in my view (mainly) white racism against minorities is still a problem for society. I won't comment on the unchecked bile that is often spouted against travellers. (sits back and awaits the flack)
Big Rob, I'm not tying to stifle the debate as such, but I find your observations about what black people might find condescending or patronising laughable. I'm not blackmailing you dear boy, the evidence is there for all to see, not that I imagine anyone's interested. Come on BR, you can do it-"Sootys out! "
Big Rob, I'm not tying to stifle the debate as such, but I find your observations about what black people might find condescending or patronising laughable.
I missed the programme but may catch up on it on the website. Did it cover racism against white people or people deemed at "Choc Ice"? I would imagine that it was not mentioned as many people are in denial of the fact that white people are also victims of discrimination. I have been myself and when I remonstrated I was told they could not be racist because they were black.
Also it said there are 3 black managers in the top 4 divisions, but I could only think of SCP and Hughton. Have I missed someone or was it making a mistake?
Curle at Notts Co. I am interested in the definition of 'black'. Does this simply mean that an individual has a tiny percentage of 'non caucasian blood and or genes'? Or is it a self description, i.e, I have decided that I am black whereas 'he' is white, or has 'society' imposed the label 'black' upon me, rather as in apartheid South Africa. Carlisle, Hughton and Curle are all mixed race, as are the Ferdinands, Ashley Cole, Theo Walcott and many other professional footballers in England. So .. what makes a person 'black' as opposed to white, brownish, pink, yellow, or indeed blue, green or paisley?
There are only 4 English managers in the top flight, none of them at top clubs. 3 of them at the newly promoted clubs.
Given that I would imagine 95% of the people in England are English then surely English managers are under represented in English top flight football before you even bring colour into it. So perhaps the game is racist but going by those stats it's certainly not xenophobic!
I am sorry to see many of the responses to "Is Football Racist" on this thread. Racism is something that until not very long ago was an endemic problem in the game in this country and which still affects players and the fanbase in this country because of what was happening on the terraces in the seventies and eighties. According to the interviewees in this programme this has left a legacy of perceived racism / intolerance of difference that continues to affect the fanbase today and this is something that should concern us surely. Why do we need to drag in this tired old nonsense about "whites are discriminated against too" - it's like the "men get raped too" stuff that gets bandied about when a rape trial recieves high publicity - distressing of course for the victim, but an exception rather than a common problem, I believe. I thought what David Baddiel had to say on the sunject of anti-semitism was to the point (leaving aside my own lack of enthusiasm for him as an entertainer).
Forgive me for being a veggie, pinko tree hugger but why can't we all just get along? Find it so sad that at this point in history we're even still discussing this issue.
Forgive me for being a veggie, pinko tree hugger but why can't we all just get along? Find it so sad that at this point in history we're even still discussing this issue.
Yeah. We were. Kept blacks out of the team for decades.
Phil Walker & Trevor Lee were white players dubbed up to be black just to trick people, clearly they didn't trick you.
Thought Phil Walker played for us? Wasn't all that if my memory is correct.
In fact Leeds had a black player years before both Charlton & Millwall in 1964/65 season and in the 1965 FA Cup Final leeds played with a black winger called Albert Johannson
Welcome aboard mate! Bring your own tofu and ginger tea for the basket weaving on Sunday. Got a troupe of Mongolian throat singers for entertainment. It's gonna be cosmic!
Just watched the programme and I think my comments about it were a trifle unfair. I thought it was pretty balanced. It was observing that mostly black players don't experience much if any direct racism in the modern game -ther ejust seemed to be the odd isolated incident. We know there are racists out there and racists who support Charlton, but what clubs have done is managed to promote an atmosphere where they feel uncomfortable airing their views. This is a massive step forwards over my time as a football and Charlton fan and something we shoild be proud off, not beat ourselves up over.
Whether we can say there is no racism within the game- well if it reflects society so there has to be, but I would challenge any assertion it is endemic. It was an interesting point about Asian footballers but i don't think the programme touched on some of the deeper issues which I think stops asian players progressing. I would have asked the question, why is there this featured team 100% asian? I believe that if the next Lionel Messi was indian, clubs would be trying to find him. I know Charlton have tried to tap the potential of asian players in the past with no obvious signs of successs.
I would be amazed if there was no passive racism but to be honest John Barnes would have been sacked from Tranmere whatever his colour. And he was appointed by Tranmere in the first place. As there are not many established managers in the existing pool, you really have to do the maths with first job appointments - I don't have the figures for this but every time I see a feature on racism they quote headline figures rather than illustrative ones.
Comments
Just looking at this forum with all it's "Worst XXXX" threads and overbearing negative focus on this and on a lot of football forums in general gives the impression that people are more comfortable being miserable and pointing out the bad in things than focusing on the good and I put myself in that bracket too.
I blame the weather.
I do feel this could turn into a met police situation where we employ someone as top chief not because he is a good at his job but because of the colour of his skin.
The channel that screens gritty investigative shows such as: 'Snog, Marry, Avoid', 'Don't Tell the Bride' and 'World's Craziest Fools' (featuring Mr. T).
@Redmist, is that how you stifle debate, with threats of blackmail? Post whatever you want lad, I honestly don't give a fuck!
One little thing to remember is that Atkinson at WBA was lauded for 'the three degrees' and then made that comment about Desially (?), a lot of people may be in disguise regarding this matter.
I felt quite touched by the scene when Carlisle asked his dad about his experiences.
Did anybody ever see that undercover documentary (some years ago now) when two journalists in their twenties went to Bristol, one black and one white and the different way they were treated in identical circumstances? I don't blame black and other ethnic minority folk being uncertain as to whether a friendly approach is genuine.
It may well work both ways, but in my view (mainly) white racism against minorities is still a problem for society.
I won't comment on the unchecked bile that is often spouted against travellers.
(sits back and awaits the flack)
I'm not blackmailing you dear boy, the evidence is there for all to see, not that I imagine anyone's interested.
Come on BR, you can do it-"Sootys out! "
I'm sorry for my comments Rob, they were bullying and uncalled for.
Or is it a self description, i.e, I have decided that I am black whereas 'he' is white, or has 'society' imposed the label 'black' upon me, rather as in apartheid South Africa. Carlisle, Hughton and Curle are all mixed race, as are the Ferdinands, Ashley Cole, Theo Walcott and many other professional footballers in England. So .. what makes a person 'black' as opposed to white, brownish, pink, yellow, or indeed blue, green or paisley?
Given that I would imagine 95% of the people in England are English then surely English managers are under represented in English top flight football before you even bring colour into it. So perhaps the game is racist but going by those stats it's certainly not xenophobic!
@LenGlover
Albert Johanneson - Lincs correctly points out he played for Leeds in the 60's, he left Leeds and signed for York (70-72).
In fact Leeds had a black player years before both Charlton & Millwall in 1964/65 season and in the 1965 FA Cup Final leeds played with a black winger called Albert Johannson
He did. Played for us first though.
Whether we can say there is no racism within the game- well if it reflects society so there has to be, but I would challenge any assertion it is endemic. It was an interesting point about Asian footballers but i don't think the programme touched on some of the deeper issues which I think stops asian players progressing. I would have asked the question, why is there this featured team 100% asian? I believe that if the next Lionel Messi was indian, clubs would be trying to find him. I know Charlton have tried to tap the potential of asian players in the past with no obvious signs of successs.
I would be amazed if there was no passive racism but to be honest John Barnes would have been sacked from Tranmere whatever his colour. And he was appointed by Tranmere in the first place. As there are not many established managers in the existing pool, you really have to do the maths with first job appointments - I don't have the figures for this but every time I see a feature on racism they quote headline figures rather than illustrative ones.