It wont be popular with many but I would go a bit further than Melrose and Hastingsaddick, I have no problem with Millwall, always got on well with their supporters and feel Charlton V Millwall games are the nearest to "banter" we get these days, its means more to both sets of fans than they would often care to admit but its about local bragging rights not rivalry or a grudge game.
I have been watching Charlton since the early 80's so was not around for them coming the covered end each week like some of the older lads on here and we are all affected by our own experiences, I cant wait to play them home and away this year and did not want them to go down for simply that reason. Rivalries are often irrational and so by the same token and at the point where I completely contradict myself, I dislike of Palace in all its forms knows no bounds, their support, their ground, their kit colours, their nickname and even their ever changing badge.
We have had many discussions on this previously so dont want to de-rail the thread further, good luck to Millwall's plan to extend, I hope we stuff them home and away with or without filled in corners and I know that bunny and sparrows wouldn't take that personally, when we play that other mob from North Surrey however the fear of defeat is as strong as the joy of victory so I would personally rather we never played them at all...
Good post. Me too. Ironically I used to live within a stones throw of " Sell First Park". Always hated Palace, ground, etc. Strangely enough always liked the pubs (oh! and curry houses) around there. Now that's culture for you! Sorry if I've ambushed this thread.
I used to live in Sheffield for a bit (sorry AFKA)...and popped over to watch Wednesday and United a few times.
Very different clubs. And it did remind me of Millwall and Charlton.
Like most Wall fans I don't hate Charlton, but I do want to beat them and look forward to our games.
I love Millwall being a very partisan place to watch football...but can also appreciate the more laid back atmosphere at Wednesday and the Valley.
Sometimes having to defend us after another incident gets very tedious, and it is clear that our rep holds us back in terms of improving gates. The 2002 riot was a massive blow - that ended 3 seasons of very good gates, which included a lot of home area sell-outs, and gates of 15,000 plus even for provincial games v the likes of Coventry, Sheffield Wednesday and Ipswich. Our lowest gate was 10,500 v Barnsley on a Tuesday night after a heavy away defeat.
But would I change us? No.
Like I'm sure you lot wouldn't change Charlton. At least Charlton are respected as a friendly club with a good support.
Some clubs do family/welcoming/laid back very well - Charlton, Norwich, Fulham..
Others do hostile better - Millwall, Stoke, Leeds..
I think the reason we both despise Palace is that they are neither a decent family club or a partisan one. They are just a bit nothingy.
The rivalry with Leeds, Cardiff etc is off the field, not on it. I don't like 'em and I don't care......scum.
The Leeds one is a bit of both, rarely been any trouble off the field the lsat few years, but we've both been battling eachother to get out the 3rd division including play-off semi and resuming rivalries in the 2nd division. Their fans surprisingly go on about us quite a bit, whereas off the field it's all but over.
The rivalry with Leeds, Cardiff etc is off the field, not on it. I don't like 'em and I don't care......scum.
The Leeds one is a bit of both, rarely been any trouble off the field the lsat few years, but we've both been battling eachother to get out the 3rd division including play-off semi and resuming rivalries in the 2nd division. Their fans surprisingly go on about us quite a bit, whereas off the field it's all but over.
Agree. It has been probably our best/most intense on-field rivarly for years. The cherry on top would be getting them in the latter stages of one of the Cups.
It wont be popular with many but I would go a bit further than Melrose and Hastingsaddick, I have no problem with Millwall, always got on well with their supporters and feel Charlton V Millwall games are the nearest to "banter" we get these days, its means more to both sets of fans than they would often care to admit but its about local bragging rights not rivalry or a grudge game.
I have been watching Charlton since the early 80's so was not around for them coming the covered end each week like some of the older lads on here and we are all affected by our own experiences, I cant wait to play them home and away this year and did not want them to go down for simply that reason. Rivalries are often irrational and so by the same token and at the point where I completely contradict myself, I dislike of Palace in all its forms knows no bounds, their support, their ground, their kit colours, their nickname and even their ever changing badge.
We have had many discussions on this previously so dont want to de-rail the thread further, good luck to Millwall's plan to extend, I hope we stuff them home and away with or without filled in corners and I know that bunny and sparrows wouldn't take that personally, when we play that other mob from North Surrey however the fear of defeat is as strong as the joy of victory so I would personally rather we never played them at all...
Of course nothing taking personally, wouldn't expect you to want us to win!
I've grown up with more Charlton acquaintances than most others (apart from Arsenal & Spurs) and when you take the choice of football team out of the conversation we're generally very alike, as you'd expect for people all growing up in Eltham, Welling, Sidcup etc, so no hatred for Charlton from my side, just a good rivalry and a team I want to beat for bragging rights.
Palace are a different kettle of fish, don't know what they are.
That will be the cancellation of the Leslie Garrett and That'll Be the Day shows on 'Da Heaff'.
Nawty !
Wouldn't know...I can count on one hand the amount of times I've ventured in to the town...even had to tell the paper boy i have absolutely no interest in local news, so do not bother... thankfully live near the station, and am only 45 minutes from 'home'.
It wont be popular with many but I would go a bit further than Melrose and Hastingsaddick, I have no problem with Millwall, always got on well with their supporters and feel Charlton V Millwall games are the nearest to "banter" we get these days, its means more to both sets of fans than they would often care to admit but its about local bragging rights not rivalry or a grudge game.
I have been watching Charlton since the early 80's so was not around for them coming the covered end each week like some of the older lads on here and we are all affected by our own experiences, I cant wait to play them home and away this year and did not want them to go down for simply that reason. Rivalries are often irrational and so by the same token and at the point where I completely contradict myself, I dislike of Palace in all its forms knows no bounds, their support, their ground, their kit colours, their nickname and even their ever changing badge.
We have had many discussions on this previously so dont want to de-rail the thread further, good luck to Millwall's plan to extend, I hope we stuff them home and away with or without filled in corners and I know that bunny and sparrows wouldn't take that personally, when we play that other mob from North Surrey however the fear of defeat is as strong as the joy of victory so I would personally rather we never played them at all...
Tend to agree with most of that...I used to fill like that about Palace but as I got older I resent them far less....still would love to finish above them this season (and take 6 points from them as well).
I have to say, I do think the atmosphere at The Den for THAT 4-0 mauling we got a couple of years ago was pretty impressive. Probably quite straight forward and tame by Millwall standards, but it was louder than anything we would ever get at The Valley.
I have to say, I do think the atmosphere at The Den for THAT 4-0 mauling we got a couple of years ago was pretty impressive. Probably quite straight forward and tame by Millwall standards, but it was louder than anything we would ever get at The Valley.
Yes, I thought that to, and the atmospere at the Valley V Millwall was pretty good to.
I have to say, I do think the atmosphere at The Den for THAT 4-0 mauling we got a couple of years ago was pretty impressive. Probably quite straight forward and tame by Millwall standards, but it was louder than anything we would ever get at The Valley.
The had 3 stands of singing which is sadly beyond us.
New Dens about as intimidating as a tea party. You just can't take 15 year old wallies giving cut throat signs seriously. Pain in the arse getting in and out but thas it.
Welcome aswell by the way,
Not what Leeds, Man City, Everton, Bristol City, Cardiff, Wigan, Forest, Birmingham City, Liverpool, Wolves and Huddersfield etc etc fans have said over the years.
I find Palace and Charlton fans always trot out this line - as if our matches v them should be some kind of bear pit...when the truth is they on a level - hostility wise - with the likes of Brighton, Southampton or Gillingham. Big games, but not hooligan grudge ones.
Although Palace did cop it once - when they beat us 4-1. Apparently we went from being 'soft' and 'not scary anymore' to 'should be closed down' and 'terrifying'.
Some feedback from some fans is one thing, and I have no reason to doubt you at all. However does that translate into actual numbers attending and paying money into Millwall compared to people who attend other away grounds? You seem to identify some games as being approached in a mild mannered way by Millwall fans, but others are approached with more hostility. There's a sense of relish and anticipation regarding the attraction and excitement approaching the 'hostile' matches, the old testosterone is up and the challenge about potential aggro is lip lickingly awaited. Many fans don't want to be part of that, not becase they are wimps or nerds, but because they don't want some adolescent attacking them for no reason in order to get brownie points with their mates. I was able to take my son to away matches from the age of five, but not to Millwall, because explaining to him at that age that some people get fun out of snide, nasty, bullying hostility, when he thought fun was a glorious and pleasant thing. I never felt that way about taking him elsewhere like Fulham or Arsenal and so on. Millwall lost out on his ticket money, but then again, as you sing, you 'don't care'.
I would never want Millwall to be a pleasant day out for away fans.
But, it would be nice if more ammenities etc would encourage more of the families and friends of the fans will already have.
However, I did look into this last year...for an article...and the away numbers that come to The Den are not particularly lower than for Palace, only for clubs like Forest, it might be a couple of hundred down - due to them being involded in some history.
I would never want Millwall to be a pleasant day out for away fans.
But, it would be nice if more ammenities etc would encourage more of the families and friends of the fans will already have.
However, I did look into this last year...for an article...and the away numbers that come to The Den are not particularly lower than for Palace, only for clubs like Forest, it might be a couple of hundred down - due to them being involded in some history.
OK, unpleasant because their team loses? Or unpleasant for other reasons?
I would never want Millwall to be a pleasant day out for away fans.
But, it would be nice if more ammenities etc would encourage more of the families and friends of the fans will already have.
However, I did look into this last year...for an article...and the away numbers that come to The Den are not particularly lower than for Palace, only for clubs like Forest, it might be a couple of hundred down - due to them being involded in some history.
OK, unpleasant because their team loses? Or unpleasant for other reasons?
Unpleasant - becausethey lose and the home fans were so partisan that they couldn't support their team in the manner they wanted.
New Dens about as intimidating as a tea party. You just can't take 15 year old wallies giving cut throat signs seriously. Pain in the arse getting in and out but thas it.
Welcome aswell by the way,
Not what Leeds, Man City, Everton, Bristol City, Cardiff, Wigan, Forest, Birmingham City, Liverpool, Wolves and Huddersfield etc etc fans have said over the years.
I find Palace and Charlton fans always trot out this line - as if our matches v them should be some kind of bear pit...when the truth is they on a level - hostility wise - with the likes of Brighton, Southampton or Gillingham. Big games, but not hooligan grudge ones.
Although Palace did cop it once - when they beat us 4-1. Apparently we went from being 'soft' and 'not scary anymore' to 'should be closed down' and 'terrifying'.
Some feedback from some fans is one thing, and I have no reason to doubt you at all. However does that translate into actual numbers attending and paying money into Millwall compared to people who attend other away grounds? You seem to identify some games as being approached in a mild mannered way by Millwall fans, but others are approached with more hostility. There's a sense of relish and anticipation regarding the attraction and excitement approaching the 'hostile' matches, the old testosterone is up and the challenge about potential aggro is lip lickingly awaited. Many fans don't want to be part of that, not becase they are wimps or nerds, but because they don't want some adolescent attacking them for no reason in order to get brownie points with their mates. I was able to take my son to away matches from the age of five, but not to Millwall, because explaining to him at that age that some people get fun out of snide, nasty, bullying hostility, when he thought fun was a glorious and pleasant thing. I never felt that way about taking him elsewhere like Fulham or Arsenal and so on. Millwall lost out on his ticket money, but then again, as you sing, you 'don't care'.
Flip it on it's head a little, but do you not think that also some away fans stay away not because of us, but because playing us draws out their own hooligan element who they may not want to travel away with? Works both ways.
Also, whilst you must have your own negative experiences of going to Millwall, I cannot recall witnessing Millwall fans ever attacking a 5 year old or his father. I know some on here have been on the end of bullying, I've witnessed some, but mainly on other 'lads', not your scarfer types of fans.
Most people who go nowadays go back reporting how safe it is, what with the walkway etc. You've got to be either very very unlucky or mouthing off to get a whack on the train from South Bermondsey to London Bridge.
I've been to a good few games at any number of teams where I've sat amongst the home support and kept schtum if Charlton were playing or sat there completely ok as a neutral. Millwall is the only one where the fans main focus is split 50 / 50 between the on field action and either baiting or commenting on the away fans. Never noticed this away fan focus mentality anywhere else.
I've been to a good few games at any number of teams where I've sat amongst the home support and kept schtum if Charlton were playing or sat there completely ok as a neutral. Millwall is the only one where the fans main focus is split 50 / 50 between the on field action and either baiting or commenting on the away fans. Never noticed this away fan focus mentality anywhere else.
Very true. It's better than watching some of the dross we serve up.
Seth, found this..thought you might find it interesting.
This is Huddersfield fans saying the actually enjoyed the hostile atmosphere...
Reading a Millwall poster on another thread he replied regarding someones comment that fans of opposing team should be able to walk to/from the ground and have banter. His reply was that the other team and their fans are the enemy (not in a violent sense unlike some of his teams followers) in the sense that the only goal is to defeat them. The atmosphere was superb on Tuesday (including from the town fans although a few people who watched it on the telly said we werent that loud). The noise was one factor, the intimidation by the touchline was another (some of our players and the officials were definitely affected by it). Seemed strange that Millwall had what must have been a couple of hundred stewards who were marched out 10 mins from the end to prevent the fans running on the pitch - the touchline area would have been a lot less intimidating during the match if they had been there all game but why would Millwall want to lose that advantage. We have had loads of "12th man, back the lads posts etc" and people talking of making the Galpharm a fortress. Surely the very word fortress indicates a battle scenario - not mutual back slapping and colouring books for the kids. I have 3 boys between 4 - 15 all with season tickets for next year and some of the family stuff is ideal for the youngest. My 10 year olds favourite match this season was tranmere away where he got to stand all match, learn some new songs (the wife was not too impresssed with his "o neil trotman...." and really soak up the atmosphere. We are moving from the FMUM (Fantastic Media Upper Morgue!) into the Brittania next year so am hoping for a much better home game atmosphere aswell. Long and pointless rant but the bottom line is fair play to Milwall and their fans who used every means possible (whether fair or not) to ensure they are in the final at Wembley. Plus on a side note the talks of gesturing fans, hand signals, insults - lets be honest its 50/50 on that front from both sides. Chavs on our coach were giving it large on the way there and back but would have filled there nappies without the police escort and coach windows to protect them. UTT.
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We'll never create that Atmosphere at the Galpharm. Similar numbers in attendance but the make up of their crowd was totally different to ours. Im going to generalise here, but you're never going to get the more reserved 'post Leeds Road' fans to shout and sing with a belly full of passion, similar with the older fans in the Direct Golf.
Millwall was probably 90% male aged 16-50, all working class. Not the case here.
One other thing, alot of times it gets said on here that we prefer away games (me included), probably cos it's the more passionate and loud supports who travel, and we do tend to make much more noise away. This can probably be said for most clubs. However, I don't think this is the case with Millwall fans, they see the Den as the ultimate place to watch Football and have a real pride about the place. Not sure we have that same feeling about being at home.
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fantastic intimidating atmosphere produced by their fans last night, until the final whistle, pitch invasion,booes by own fans,fighting with stewards on pitch whilst police stood watched in their formation, trouble by the tunnel with town players? as a result wall players never returned for their celebrarion. really feel for their decent fans as their hooligan element really spoilt a fantastic night from their club, where else would you see mounted coppers on pitch these days
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Was gonna comment on this myself. While I dislike the undesirable nature of the wall support we really could learn a lot from them at times. All 3 sides of the ground were up for it from the very start. Intimidating our players(which worked, the phrase rabbits in the headlights has never seemed so apt!), and getting behind their team from start to finish. Of course the goal helped just like it would have done at our place on saturday but they really did show us how it should be done. It seemed their team and their fans were more up for this fixture that we were. I doubt it will ever happen with our family tag and the number of women and children and passive fans who go to our home games but at least we could try and sort out a proper home END for next year andmaximise the singers we do have. Please read and listen smj1, deano and the stadium safety team. We need all the help we can get as a team.
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Dion Dublin was spot on about the intimidating atmosphere helping Millwall, as he said Town players were nervous taking corners & throw ins due to the flack they were getting. Something that did stick out was, when the cameras were panning the crowd, the distinct lack of Women & kids among the Millwall fans, compared to probablya 60/30% split in the Town area. Don't get me wrong, but, we'll never be able to re-create that sort of atmosphere at the Galpharm, because it's a more a "family" oriented club. I bet you don't get tutted at for shouting encouragement at the Den. Also they don't need a bloody drum to create an atmosphere, we never had one at leeds Rd, & i think we did a reasonable job of making a racket, now that was an intimidating place for away fans, especially night matches.
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I wish our support was more like Millwalls.
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So do i dan, i wish our fans had the same passion for our club as they do for theres.....in a strange sort of way i envy the support they get at home and the atmosphere. i dont mean that in terms of numbers of home supporters or that we should go and bulid an away holing area, but just wish our ground and fans could be as intimidating makes so much of a differance in big games such as last night!!
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We were saying exactly the same thing on the way home on the minibus mate.....this family club shit has ruined any chance we have of getting an atmosphere last night ever going....millwall got behind there side last night, where as town are more bothered about people wearing there colours and blowing there fucking vuvuzala shitty horns than wanting the fans to create an atmosphere sad but true by turning into such a family oriantated club we will NEVER see an atmosphere at the galpharm to rival the one at the den last night!!
Which is good...because is exactly the happy balnce I want. It was a very partisan crowd and we did intimidate the Huddersfield players...but no one was beaten up, there was no trouble at all. Okay, we won...but the walkway pretty much stops all chance of aggro now.
I hear it, I read it. Speaking as someone who lived for three years in Silver Walk off Redriff Road (btw the lost and lamented Ocean Breeze chip shop at Surrey Docks station is the best there ever was) I have also experienced it.
I absolutely agree Sparrows Lane Lion that a five year old little boy is very unlikely to be attacked, but as a dad who encouraged (perhaps unrealistically) my son to assume other people are basically nice and generally friendly I never wanted to have to answer the innocent questions such as 'dad, why is that man saying this or doing that?' because of general assumed mouthy behaviour all round. I would rather tackle that awkwardness when my son is(was) much older. In addition I am embarassed by some behaviour of some Charlton fans too, but my perception of Millwall is it is much worse there. Hence they get less money out of me than, say, Leyton Orient would. One memory (of many) was when a young player of ours, Jermaine Darlington was injured at the old Den, and was stretchered off around the pitch. As he passed us crammed in that corner we, as is the habit of most fans, clapped him sympathetically, than as he was then carried the length of the main stand towards the old tunnel, he was jeered, hectored, gesticulated towards, laughed at and shouted at by the whole stand. Nothing was thrown at him, and he wasn't attacked. What was the mentality of that? To put him off his game when he was already off the pitch and substituted? To make some kind of point to our fans that because we had shown appreciation to one of our own, the bile filled Millwall fans were going to show us the opposite by delighting in his distress? You tell me. I wonder if you read the comment on HOF (?) after the pre-season match where Wright-Phillips was kicked and someone posted how good it was that the 'black c***' was hurt. Not one respondent took the poster to task for their racist comment, responses were generally in agreement.
There will be a constituency of Millwall fans reading my posts who would dismiss me as a wanker or worse because of what I write here. It saddens me a little because my own dad was one of those Millwall one week, Charlton the next kind of men, and he was a decent generous man, he would not take to some of the behaviour of some of the Millwall (and yes some Charlton) fans.
My final, subjective story concerns a girl I used to teach at a local school who had a Saturday job waitressing for the executive boxes at the new Den. She described the Millwall fans there to me as 'vile'. They would letch and grope and make more than suggestive comments to her, and she told me she would keep her head down and think of the money, and the tips they would give her (presumably as contrition for their guilt at their behaviour). She was a little 16 year old girl in the company of middle aged men.
Seth, some of that is anti-social behaviour that could be attributed to lots of other different groups (not just Millwall fans) - ie the story about the girl, people acting like idiots at a game.
The two Millwall centric parts of the post are our abuse of the Charlton player on the strectcher and the comment re BWP.
All I will say is the bloke talking about how we see the away fans/team as the enemy in the quotes I used is spot on...that's what happened with the player on the stretcher. As you say - nothing was thrown etc, he was just made to feel unwelcome.
As for the comment re BWP...you need to take that with HoF admin. But, yes, Millwall have some racist who are fans. It's probably more tolerated by the fans than at most clubs, but is the least tolerated by the actual club than anywhere else.
When my brother was about ten he went to watch Millwall vs Liverpool with his mate who supported Liverpool, at half time two sets off kids got the chance to do a relay around the pitch. My brother and his mate were picked to run around the pitch, his mate got the Liverpool end who's fans were cheering the boys on but my brother got the mill wall ends, my brother was wearing a Liverpool shirt but was Ten! He says the Millwall fans were screaming at him how they were going cut his f*****g throat, rape his mum and giving him the w****r sign. He was TEN! With scum of fans like that it is no surprise parents wont take their kids, I wouldn't.
Perhaps it's only us who chant "let him die" when an opposing player goes down injured then.
HOF has some odd views on it, many who post comments such as the above but wouldn't dream of saying it "in real life" and in all honesty don't even really think/believe it I don't think, no idea why they do.
As for the waitress, disgusting behaviour especially being only 16 years of age. Funny enough though, I know someone who has experienced something similar at one of the most exclusive golf clubs in the country, so again, not exactly a Millwall only trait, just poor manners and I'm surprised other people ain't pulled them up on it especially if they actually were groping her. Cannot believe not a single other person stepped in if that happened week in, week out, letting a 16 year old girl be touched & groped. Wrong 'uns.
When my brother was about ten he went to watch Millwall vs Liverpool with his mate who supported Liverpool, at half time two sets off kids got the chance to do a relay around the pitch. My brother and his mate were picked to run around the pitch, his mate got the Liverpool end who's fans were cheering the boys on but my brother got the mill wall ends, my brother was wearing a Liverpool shirt but was Ten! He says the Millwall fans were screaming at him how they were going cut his f*****g throat, rape his mum and giving him the w****r sign. He was TEN! With scum of fans like that it is no surprise parents wont take their kids, I wouldn't.
So, as a Charlton fan with a family member with a soft spot for Liverpool you're not surprised that random members of the public don't take their kids to a Millwall match based on a story from over 20 years ago.
When my brother was about ten he went to watch Millwall vs Liverpool with his mate who supported Liverpool, at half time two sets off kids got the chance to do a relay around the pitch. My brother and his mate were picked to run around the pitch, his mate got the Liverpool end who's fans were cheering the boys on but my brother got the mill wall ends, my brother was wearing a Liverpool shirt but was Ten! He says the Millwall fans were screaming at him how they were going cut his f*****g throat, rape his mum and giving him the w****r sign. He was TEN! With scum of fans like that it is no surprise parents wont take their kids, I wouldn't.
So, as a Charlton fan with a family member with a soft spot for Liverpool you're not surprised that random members of the public don't take their kids to a Millwall match based on a story from over 20 years ago.
Fair enough.
You want a bigger stadium, you need the next generation of fans to stay and watch games as there parents pass on. If a clubs reputation is tarnished by some hooligans you won't get the next generation of fans and the club will struggle with ticket revenue. Charlton have done extremely well to become a family club (part from a few idiots that I have seen) and in twenty years I can see us having a good fan base with younger supporters. With Milwall's rep I can't see that.
When my brother was about ten he went to watch Millwall vs Liverpool with his mate who supported Liverpool, at half time two sets off kids got the chance to do a relay around the pitch. My brother and his mate were picked to run around the pitch, his mate got the Liverpool end who's fans were cheering the boys on but my brother got the mill wall ends, my brother was wearing a Liverpool shirt but was Ten! He says the Millwall fans were screaming at him how they were going cut his f*****g throat, rape his mum and giving him the w****r sign. He was TEN! With scum of fans like that it is no surprise parents wont take their kids, I wouldn't.
At the age of ten I don't think I would've even known what those words meant, let alone heard them & took them in whilst sprinting past.
Comments
Very different clubs. And it did remind me of Millwall and Charlton.
Like most Wall fans I don't hate Charlton, but I do want to beat them and look forward to our games.
I love Millwall being a very partisan place to watch football...but can also appreciate the more laid back atmosphere at Wednesday and the Valley.
Sometimes having to defend us after another incident gets very tedious, and it is clear that our rep holds us back in terms of improving gates. The 2002 riot was a massive blow - that ended 3 seasons of very good gates, which included a lot of home area sell-outs, and gates of 15,000 plus even for provincial games v the likes of Coventry, Sheffield Wednesday and Ipswich. Our lowest gate was 10,500 v Barnsley on a Tuesday night after a heavy away defeat.
But would I change us? No.
Like I'm sure you lot wouldn't change Charlton. At least Charlton are respected as a friendly club with a good support.
Some clubs do family/welcoming/laid back very well - Charlton, Norwich, Fulham..
Others do hostile better - Millwall, Stoke, Leeds..
I think the reason we both despise Palace is that they are neither a decent family club or a partisan one. They are just a bit nothingy.
I've grown up with more Charlton acquaintances than most others (apart from Arsenal & Spurs) and when you take the choice of football team out of the conversation we're generally very alike, as you'd expect for people all growing up in Eltham, Welling, Sidcup etc, so no hatred for Charlton from my side, just a good rivalry and a team I want to beat for bragging rights.
Palace are a different kettle of fish, don't know what they are.
That will be the cancellation of the Leslie Garrett and That'll Be the Day shows on 'Da Heaff'.
Nawty !
I don't get the Wednesday dig at all.
You seem to identify some games as being approached in a mild mannered way by Millwall fans, but others are approached with more hostility. There's a sense of relish and anticipation regarding the attraction and excitement approaching the 'hostile' matches, the old testosterone is up and the challenge about potential aggro is lip lickingly awaited. Many fans don't want to be part of that, not becase they are wimps or nerds, but because they don't want some adolescent attacking them for no reason in order to get brownie points with their mates.
I was able to take my son to away matches from the age of five, but not to Millwall, because explaining to him at that age that some people get fun out of snide, nasty, bullying hostility, when he thought fun was a glorious and pleasant thing. I never felt that way about taking him elsewhere like Fulham or Arsenal and so on. Millwall lost out on his ticket money, but then again, as you sing, you 'don't care'.
But, it would be nice if more ammenities etc would encourage more of the families and friends of the fans will already have.
However, I did look into this last year...for an article...and the away numbers that come to The Den are not particularly lower than for Palace, only for clubs like Forest, it might be a couple of hundred down - due to them being involded in some history.
Also, whilst you must have your own negative experiences of going to Millwall, I cannot recall witnessing Millwall fans ever attacking a 5 year old or his father. I know some on here have been on the end of bullying, I've witnessed some, but mainly on other 'lads', not your scarfer types of fans.
Most people who go nowadays go back reporting how safe it is, what with the walkway etc. You've got to be either very very unlucky or mouthing off to get a whack on the train from South Bermondsey to London Bridge.
This is Huddersfield fans saying the actually enjoyed the hostile atmosphere... Which is good...because is exactly the happy balnce I want. It was a very partisan crowd and we did intimidate the Huddersfield players...but no one was beaten up, there was no trouble at all. Okay, we won...but the walkway pretty much stops all chance of aggro now.
http://surreycanal.com/
I hear it, I read it. Speaking as someone who lived for three years in Silver Walk off Redriff Road (btw the lost and lamented Ocean Breeze chip shop at Surrey Docks station is the best there ever was) I have also experienced it.
I absolutely agree Sparrows Lane Lion that a five year old little boy is very unlikely to be attacked, but as a dad who encouraged (perhaps unrealistically) my son to assume other people are basically nice and generally friendly I never wanted to have to answer the innocent questions such as 'dad, why is that man saying this or doing that?' because of general assumed mouthy behaviour all round. I would rather tackle that awkwardness when my son is(was) much older. In addition I am embarassed by some behaviour of some Charlton fans too, but my perception of Millwall is it is much worse there. Hence they get less money out of me than, say, Leyton Orient would.
One memory (of many) was when a young player of ours, Jermaine Darlington was injured at the old Den, and was stretchered off around the pitch. As he passed us crammed in that corner we, as is the habit of most fans, clapped him sympathetically, than as he was then carried the length of the main stand towards the old tunnel, he was jeered, hectored, gesticulated towards, laughed at and shouted at by the whole stand. Nothing was thrown at him, and he wasn't attacked. What was the mentality of that? To put him off his game when he was already off the pitch and substituted? To make some kind of point to our fans that because we had shown appreciation to one of our own, the bile filled Millwall fans were going to show us the opposite by delighting in his distress? You tell me.
I wonder if you read the comment on HOF (?) after the pre-season match where Wright-Phillips was kicked and someone posted how good it was that the 'black c***' was hurt. Not one respondent took the poster to task for their racist comment, responses were generally in agreement.
There will be a constituency of Millwall fans reading my posts who would dismiss me as a wanker or worse because of what I write here. It saddens me a little because my own dad was one of those Millwall one week, Charlton the next kind of men, and he was a decent generous man, he would not take to some of the behaviour of some of the Millwall (and yes some Charlton) fans.
My final, subjective story concerns a girl I used to teach at a local school who had a Saturday job waitressing for the executive boxes at the new Den. She described the Millwall fans there to me as 'vile'. They would letch and grope and make more than suggestive comments to her, and she told me she would keep her head down and think of the money, and the tips they would give her (presumably as contrition for their guilt at their behaviour). She was a little 16 year old girl in the company of middle aged men.
The two Millwall centric parts of the post are our abuse of the Charlton player on the strectcher and the comment re BWP.
All I will say is the bloke talking about how we see the away fans/team as the enemy in the quotes I used is spot on...that's what happened with the player on the stretcher. As you say - nothing was thrown etc, he was just made to feel unwelcome.
As for the comment re BWP...you need to take that with HoF admin. But, yes, Millwall have some racist who are fans. It's probably more tolerated by the fans than at most clubs, but is the least tolerated by the actual club than anywhere else.
HOF has some odd views on it, many who post comments such as the above but wouldn't dream of saying it "in real life" and in all honesty don't even really think/believe it I don't think, no idea why they do.
As for the waitress, disgusting behaviour especially being only 16 years of age. Funny enough though, I know someone who has experienced something similar at one of the most exclusive golf clubs in the country, so again, not exactly a Millwall only trait, just poor manners and I'm surprised other people ain't pulled them up on it especially if they actually were groping her. Cannot believe not a single other person stepped in if that happened week in, week out, letting a 16 year old girl be touched & groped. Wrong 'uns.
Fair enough.