New Dens about as intimidating as a tea party. You just can't take 15 year old wallies giving cut throat signs seriously. Pain in the arse getting in and out but thas it.
thats all well and good (and a bit boring)... but did you like my nickname for ya new look bling bling stadium?
It was quite amusing, yes.
And I can be boring - my cousin says I'd fit in with him down the Valley quite well..as I too know a lot about average attendances...just need to brush up my train knowledge though.
well im glad you didnt really like the nickname, that would never do, your apathetic response is pleasing to me.
funny you should say that about your cousin and fitting in... my spanner cousin is always trying to get me to go to the new den with him but the fact i cant master the bermondsey bowl would be a real give away (well that and id look and feel like a proper wolly) stops me from going!
I'm from Walworth...so wouldn't bother with that Bermondsey nonsense either.
Walworth, Pwoper Geeza !!!
Yet you're posting from Haywards Heath.
"Another cream tea vicar ? Splendid !"
i should have said the 'haywards heath flounce' then?
I did some work on the planning agreement for the regeneration scheme. First of all, it is a private company called Renewal (who have pretty deep pockets) who intend the develop what is called the Surrey Canal Triangle, rather than the Council.
It is a really difficult development. The area is criss-crossed with railway lines (and as is often the case where you have railway lines, utitily infrastructure) and is occupied by numerous industrial, warehouse and other uses - a compulsory purchase order will be required. The planning agreement requires huge contributions to the public realm before development can be occupied, including a multi-million pound contribution to a new train station.
I'm not a valuer but I've worked on lots of developments over the years and I will be stunned if this one ever gets built. It has the kind of costs you can get away with in a high value area like Chelsea but in Bermondsey next to a load of trains and a football stadium. I just can't see where the profit is.
thats all well and good (and a bit boring)... but did you like my nickname for ya new look bling bling stadium?
It was quite amusing, yes.
And I can be boring - my cousin says I'd fit in with him down the Valley quite well..as I too know a lot about average attendances...just need to brush up my train knowledge though.
well im glad you didnt really like the nickname, that would never do, your apathetic response is pleasing to me.
funny you should say that about your cousin and fitting in... my spanner cousin is always trying to get me to go to the new den with him but the fact i cant master the bermondsey bowl would be a real give away (well that and id look and feel like a proper wolly) stops me from going!
I'm from Walworth...so wouldn't bother with that Bermondsey nonsense either.
I don't know if this reputation will ever go away, as all it takes is a single incident, like the riot outside Upton Park, and your reputation is ruined for another 10 years. The fact that the rioting fans were in the main not even regular Millwall supporters must make it more painful for the club...
The fact is we were all locked up inside the ground while west ham fans were running riot. Before the game there were numerous clashes between much larger groups of west ham and small pockets of Millwall who had been dispersed across several tube stations as the plod shut Upton Park due to west ham causing grief outside there.
New Dens about as intimidating as a tea party. You just can't take 15 year old wallies giving cut throat signs seriously. Pain in the arse getting in and out but thas it.
Welcome aswell by the way,
It depends who you're travelling with. Coming with Charlton, the Den is never going to be overly intimidating because the atmosphere just isn't that hostile between us. However, pick a few other games, like Wolves, Huddersfield, Birmingham, etc and they'll tell you the atmosphere was back to the old days & hostile.
thats all well and good (and a bit boring)... but did you like my nickname for ya new look bling bling stadium?
It was quite amusing, yes.
And I can be boring - my cousin says I'd fit in with him down the Valley quite well..as I too know a lot about average attendances...just need to brush up my train knowledge though.
well im glad you didnt really like the nickname, that would never do, your apathetic response is pleasing to me.
funny you should say that about your cousin and fitting in... my spanner cousin is always trying to get me to go to the new den with him but the fact i cant master the bermondsey bowl would be a real give away (well that and id look and feel like a proper wolly) stops me from going!
I'm from Walworth...so wouldn't bother with that Bermondsey nonsense either.
thats all well and good (and a bit boring)... but did you like my nickname for ya new look bling bling stadium?
It was quite amusing, yes.
And I can be boring - my cousin says I'd fit in with him down the Valley quite well..as I too know a lot about average attendances...just need to brush up my train knowledge though.
well im glad you didnt really like the nickname, that would never do, your apathetic response is pleasing to me.
funny you should say that about your cousin and fitting in... my spanner cousin is always trying to get me to go to the new den with him but the fact i cant master the bermondsey bowl would be a real give away (well that and id look and feel like a proper wolly) stops me from going!
I'm from Walworth...so wouldn't bother with that Bermondsey nonsense either.
Walworth, Pwoper Geeza !!!
Yet you're posting from Haywards Heath.
"Another cream tea vicar ? Splendid !"
This may surprise you - but, people move!
Have you got a link to this 80% SE post code survey?
I did some work on the planning agreement for the regeneration scheme. First of all, it is a private company called Renewal (who have pretty deep pockets) who intend the develop what is called the Surrey Canal Triangle, rather than the Council.
It is a really difficult development. The area is criss-crossed with railway lines (and as is often the case where you have railway lines, utitily infrastructure) and is occupied by numerous industrial, warehouse and other uses - a compulsory purchase order will be required. The planning agreement requires huge contributions to the public realm before development can be occupied, including a multi-million pound contribution to a new train station.
I'm not a valuer but I've worked on lots of developments over the years and I will be stunned if this one ever gets built. It has the kind of costs you can get away with in a high value area like Chelsea but in Bermondsey next to a load of trains and a football stadium. I just can't see where the profit is.
Jints, I work costing developments such as these & I did some very quick back of the fag packet sums based on potential revenues for the residential units against the average cost for building them; there didn't appear to be the swells of profit one would anticipate.
As I said, they were very rough costs, but with the huge amount of work that needs doing, the logistics etc it's not as straightforward.
Interestingly the project is split into several phases, about 6 in all I think, with phases 1 & 2 being the multifaith centre & some resi I think....wouldn't be surprised if that was all that happened and development stopped for a while or some of the sporting facilities were scaled right back and replaced with more profitable uses such as more residential.
When you go up on the train & pass the old Silwood Estate (now called Bermondsey South) then further up is Bermondsey Spa, I'm shocked at just how dense the buildings now are. Those Spa apartments were something like £350k+ for a 2 bed, now their views look directly into someones bedroom 20 foot across the road. It's still the ethos of pile 'em high but still sell 'em high! I can see Renewal going down that route. Lessons ain't been learnt though from all the estates built years ago, we've got high value apartments in a not as desirable area being built densely with no porivision for local amenities.
My mate moved into Bermondsey South from Putney, he only ever used one pub that catered for the new types of people moving in. Other than he stayed in his flat. He has now gone to Surrey and is happy to be out of there. My concern is all the apartments will go the same way.
I did some work on the planning agreement for the regeneration scheme. First of all, it is a private company called Renewal (who have pretty deep pockets) who intend the develop what is called the Surrey Canal Triangle, rather than the Council.
It is a really difficult development. The area is criss-crossed with railway lines (and as is often the case where you have railway lines, utitily infrastructure) and is occupied by numerous industrial, warehouse and other uses - a compulsory purchase order will be required. The planning agreement requires huge contributions to the public realm before development can be occupied, including a multi-million pound contribution to a new train station.
I'm not a valuer but I've worked on lots of developments over the years and I will be stunned if this one ever gets built. It has the kind of costs you can get away with in a high value area like Chelsea but in Bermondsey next to a load of trains and a football stadium. I just can't see where the profit is.
The funding for the station has been put up by Renewal. The footprint has already been built.
The warehouses along Surrey Canal Road have already been purchased. The businesses at the back of the stadium have been told that when their lease ends they have to move out.
You're not sure where the profit is in 2,500 new homes within the shadow of Canary Wharf?
thats all well and good (and a bit boring)... but did you like my nickname for ya new look bling bling stadium?
It was quite amusing, yes.
And I can be boring - my cousin says I'd fit in with him down the Valley quite well..as I too know a lot about average attendances...just need to brush up my train knowledge though.
well im glad you didnt really like the nickname, that would never do, your apathetic response is pleasing to me.
funny you should say that about your cousin and fitting in... my spanner cousin is always trying to get me to go to the new den with him but the fact i cant master the bermondsey bowl would be a real give away (well that and id look and feel like a proper wolly) stops me from going!
I'm from Walworth...so wouldn't bother with that Bermondsey nonsense either.
Walworth, Pwoper Geeza !!!
Yet you're posting from Haywards Heath.
"Another cream tea vicar ? Splendid !"
80% with SE post codes, mmm....
Apparently so - not sure it's that hard to believe. Is it? Southwark, Greenwhich and Lewisham have a combined population of around 775,000. We have 6,500 season ticket holders. Meaning that c.5,200 live amongst that 775,000 population.
New Dens about as intimidating as a tea party. You just can't take 15 year old wallies giving cut throat signs seriously. Pain in the arse getting in and out but thas it.
Welcome aswell by the way,
Not what Leeds, Man City, Everton, Bristol City, Cardiff, Wigan, Forest, Birmingham City, Liverpool, Wolves and Huddersfield etc etc fans have said over the years.
I find Palace and Charlton fans always trot out this line - as if our matches v them should be some kind of bear pit...when the truth is they on a level - hostility wise - with the likes of Brighton, Southampton or Gillingham. Big games, but not hooligan grudge ones.
Although Palace did cop it once - when they beat us 4-1. Apparently we went from being 'soft' and 'not scary anymore' to 'should be closed down' and 'terrifying'.
Got a lot of time for both these Millwall lads....makes a change to see some decent conversation with opposing fans......now wheres that firking Budgie......
The funding for the station has been put up by Renewal. The footprint has already been built.
The warehouses along Surrey Canal Road have already been purchased. The businesses at the back of the stadium have been told that when their lease ends they have to move out.
You're not sure where the profit is in 2,500 new homes within the shadow of Canary Wharf?
The land is safeguarded, but the funding certainly hasn't been paid. The agreement simply says how much will have to be paid.
I believe that options have been agreed with some of the occupiers but that doesn't mean they have been built out.
Of course 2,500 new homes can be sold and at decent prices (to be pedantic it is 2,400 and 12% are to be affordable). But this isn't agricultural land, it is a really difficult development site.
If Renewal can do it at a profit, I takle my hat off to them.
The funding for the station has been put up by Renewal. The footprint has already been built.
The warehouses along Surrey Canal Road have already been purchased. The businesses at the back of the stadium have been told that when their lease ends they have to move out.
You're not sure where the profit is in 2,500 new homes within the shadow of Canary Wharf?
The land is safeguarded, but the funding certainly hasn't been paid. The agreement simply says how much will have to be paid.
I believe that options have been agreed with some of the occupiers but that doesn't mean they have been built out.
Of course 2,500 new homes can be sold and at decent prices (to be pedantic it is 2,400 and 12% are to be affordable). But this isn't agricultural land, it is a really difficult development site.
If Renewal can do it at a profit, I takle my hat off to them.
The CPO has been voted in favour by Lewisham, so that's that hurdle passed. Like you say though, funding for this sort of scheme is huge. I've been trying to find out who the QS's are but no luck so far as I'd be interested to see who is working on it and what sort of costs they've got to so far.
The one problem I have with Millwall is this strange idea of making rivals out of clubs like Huddersfield and Wigan.
Seems a bit strange to me.
We haven't got a rivarly with either Wigan or Huddersfield - just that they saw The Den at it's best in some big games.
That Huddersfield game brought out these quotes...
Dion Dublin "The Huddersfield wingers are scared to go to the touchline because of the noise the Millwall fans are making"
Daily Mail "Last night I witnessed one of the most powerfull displays of support ever seen at a football ground. When one side of the ground finished chanting, the next side took over and the melody continued all night. Millwall fans have a tainted history, but last night they were truely magnificent"
Yorkshire post "YORKSHIRE'S hopes of having a seventh representative in next season's Championship last night bit the dust amid a cacophony of noise in the capital.Not only did the Lions lose just once on home soil all season, but their Den home is without doubt the most intimidating arena in English football. That was evident throughout last night with the already excited locals being whipped up into a frenzy ahead of kick-off by the PA system belting out 'London Calling' by The Clash and Millwall's club anthem 'Let 'Em Come'"
Mirror "On a breathless night with hearing aids at warp factor seven, Steve Morison sent Millwall swaying up Wembley Way again. Nobody cranks up the volume louder than Millwall, and the Lions' determination to end their play-off hoodoo was fuelled by a brand of fanatical support once enjoyed by dictators."
Huddersfield fans comments...
"We constantly hear players say that 'our fans ' are the 12th man well I think Millwall fans absolutely proved that point on Tuesday
Spoke to a mate who went to the game , he has been to over 70 league grounds watching Town over the years & he said the atmosphere that Millwall created was the most intimidating he had ever been in
The Millwall fans had a plan make so much fucking noise as to intimidate Huddersfield fans/players , did you see the shit our players were getting at corners & throw-ins , when Robbie Williams tried to retrieve the ball for a thrown in it reminded of that scene at the end of the ' The Warriors ' where the ducky boys turn up and spook the player
Although I take your point about us having grudge matches against the likes of Leeds and Cardiff - must seem a bit odd to others.
But, I find the whole Brighton v Palace thing odd.
So each to their own.
Guess my point is (and my Charlton cousin agrees) that Palace & Charlton fans are quite right to question this idea that Millwall create such an intimidating atmosphere...they've never seen it.
But it's a bit like saying Bears arent dangerous...cos you saw a young, drugged up female one with it's teeth removed on holiday.
The one problem I have with Millwall is this strange idea of making rivals out of clubs like Huddersfield and Wigan.
Seems a bit strange to me.
We haven't got a rivarly with either Wigan or Huddersfield - just that they saw The Den at it's best in some big games.
That Huddersfield game brought out these quotes...
Dion Dublin "The Huddersfield wingers are scared to go to the touchline because of the noise the Millwall fans are making"
Daily Mail "Last night I witnessed one of the most powerfull displays of support ever seen at a football ground. When one side of the ground finished chanting, the next side took over and the melody continued all night. Millwall fans have a tainted history, but last night they were truely magnificent"
Yorkshire post "YORKSHIRE'S hopes of having a seventh representative in next season's Championship last night bit the dust amid a cacophony of noise in the capital.Not only did the Lions lose just once on home soil all season, but their Den home is without doubt the most intimidating arena in English football. That was evident throughout last night with the already excited locals being whipped up into a frenzy ahead of kick-off by the PA system belting out 'London Calling' by The Clash and Millwall's club anthem 'Let 'Em Come'"
Mirror "On a breathless night with hearing aids at warp factor seven, Steve Morison sent Millwall swaying up Wembley Way again. Nobody cranks up the volume louder than Millwall, and the Lions' determination to end their play-off hoodoo was fuelled by a brand of fanatical support once enjoyed by dictators."
Huddersfield fans comments...
"We constantly hear players say that 'our fans ' are the 12th man well I think Millwall fans absolutely proved that point on Tuesday
Spoke to a mate who went to the game , he has been to over 70 league grounds watching Town over the years & he said the atmosphere that Millwall created was the most intimidating he had ever been in
The Millwall fans had a plan make so much fucking noise as to intimidate Huddersfield fans/players , did you see the shit our players were getting at corners & throw-ins , when Robbie Williams tried to retrieve the ball for a thrown in it reminded of that scene at the end of the ' The Warriors ' where the ducky boys turn up and spook the player
Although I take your point about us having grudge matches against the likes of Leeds and Cardiff - must seem a bit odd to others.
But, I find the whole Brighton v Palace thing odd.
So each to their own.
Guess my point is (and my Charlton cousin agrees) that Palace & Charlton fans are quite right to question this idea that Millwall create such an intimidating atmosphere...they've never seen it.
But it's a bit like saying Bears arent dangerous...cos you saw a young, drugged up female one with it's teeth removed on holiday.
Funny you should say that..we haven't seen that atmosphere down the Den....I've always thought it to be pretty good.
Not gonna be to popular with fellow Charlton fans here I'm sure. I've always loved Charlton but I've always wished our fans had the passion etc of the Millwall fans. A passionate atmosphere adds an extra ingredient to a game. The problem is that this atmospere invariably becomes hostile leading to chaos and total hooliganism. Don't even have a problem with a load of nutters fighting it out if they want to, as long as innocent families and kids don't get hurt. How two clubs not so many miles apart can be so different always amazes me. For example when I look at the Charlton away support I always chuckle a bit ( won't elaborate on that too much), but you all know what I'm saying. In all fairness to Millwall they don't often have a major pop at us. Not worth it. No challenge really, a bit like taking candy off a baby. Anyway that's West Ham's, Cardiff's, Leed's fans purpose in life. Good luck to Millwall for forward thinking, but quite simply Millwall are what they are, and I personally don't think that will ever change.
The funding for the station has been put up by Renewal. The footprint has already been built.
The warehouses along Surrey Canal Road have already been purchased. The businesses at the back of the stadium have been told that when their lease ends they have to move out.
You're not sure where the profit is in 2,500 new homes within the shadow of Canary Wharf?
The land is safeguarded, but the funding certainly hasn't been paid. The agreement simply says how much will have to be paid.
I believe that options have been agreed with some of the occupiers but that doesn't mean they have been built out.
Of course 2,500 new homes can be sold and at decent prices (to be pedantic it is 2,400 and 12% are to be affordable). But this isn't agricultural land, it is a really difficult development site.
If Renewal can do it at a profit, I takle my hat off to them.
Indeed, but I think they've gone into with their eyes wide open...there are problems to overcome, which is why this has been on the drawing board for about 6 years now, but it looks like they are pushing ahead with it. The footprint for the station has been built - and the funding for the station was perhaps the biggest barrier.
thats all well and good (and a bit boring)... but did you like my nickname for ya new look bling bling stadium?
It was quite amusing, yes.
And I can be boring - my cousin says I'd fit in with him down the Valley quite well..as I too know a lot about average attendances...just need to brush up my train knowledge though.
well im glad you didnt really like the nickname, that would never do, your apathetic response is pleasing to me.
funny you should say that about your cousin and fitting in... my spanner cousin is always trying to get me to go to the new den with him but the fact i cant master the bermondsey bowl would be a real give away (well that and id look and feel like a proper wolly) stops me from going!
I'm from Walworth...so wouldn't bother with that Bermondsey nonsense either.
Walworth, Pwoper Geeza !!!
Yet you're posting from Haywards Heath.
"Another cream tea vicar ? Splendid !"
80% with SE post codes, mmm....
Apparently so - not sure it's that hard to believe. Is it? Southwark, Greenwhich and Lewisham have a combined population of around 775,000. We have 6,500 season ticket holders. Meaning that c.5,200 live amongst that 775,000 population.
Not hard to believe but hard to find a link to the survey?
Although you'll like to think that the majority of your fans live down the OKR it's simply not true. Having lived in both Bromley and Lewisham I know which area has the higher amount of millwall fans.
Not gonna be to popular with fellow Charlton fans here I'm sure. I've always loved Charlton but I've always wished our fans had the passion etc of the Millwall fans. A passionate atmosphere adds an extra ingredient to a game. The problem is that this atmospere invariably becomes hostile leading to chaos and total hooliganism. Don't even have a problem with a load of nutters fighting it out if they want to, as long as innocent families and kids don't get hurt. How two clubs not so many miles apart can be so different always amazes me. For example when I look at the Charlton away support I always chuckle a bit ( won't elaborate on that too much), but you all know what I'm saying. In all fairness to Millwall they don't often have a major pop at us. Not worth it. No challenge really, a bit like taking candy off a baby. Anyway that's West Ham's, Cardiff's, Leed's fans purpose in life. Good luck to Millwall for forward thinking, but quite simply Millwall are what they are, and I personally don't think that will ever change.
Don't worry Melrose...I've said the same thing and been shot down in flames before some will agree with you others won't.
Perhaps there will be an area where away fans who are locked in after games for an hour can stay in the warm get a hot drink and put their feet up...........some chance of that!
Not gonna be to popular with fellow Charlton fans here I'm sure. I've always loved Charlton but I've always wished our fans had the passion etc of the Millwall fans. A passionate atmosphere adds an extra ingredient to a game. The problem is that this atmospere invariably becomes hostile leading to chaos and total hooliganism. Don't even have a problem with a load of nutters fighting it out if they want to, as long as innocent families and kids don't get hurt. How two clubs not so many miles apart can be so different always amazes me. For example when I look at the Charlton away support I always chuckle a bit ( won't elaborate on that too much), but you all know what I'm saying. In all fairness to Millwall they don't often have a major pop at us. Not worth it. No challenge really, a bit like taking candy off a baby. Anyway that's West Ham's, Cardiff's, Leed's fans purpose in life. Good luck to Millwall for forward thinking, but quite simply Millwall are what they are, and I personally don't think that will ever change.
Some clubs have the culture, some don't and it's interesting clubs so close can be so different. I'd always put Bristol City above Rovers in that sense, Stoke over Port Vale, Sheff Utd over Sheff Wed, they just seem slightly different clubs.
When a club has a reputation for noise, hostility etc when you go regularly you get sucked into that culture and become a part of it. Younger kids continue to thrive off the older people before them. If a club hasn't got that, like Palace, it's very hard and you end up having to make a concerted attempt at creating a group to create an atmosphere, hence their ultra group.
It goes back to an earlier theme in the thread, there are more "ultra" groups springing up, Palace, Leicester, Boro etc...to try & create an atmosphere. The familar thing is all clubs have spent time in the Prem and have moved on to attract the modern fan, which goes back to us saying Millwall are a decade behind all that.
We've not yet lost that culture, other clubs have & are trying to claw it back. Boro especially, Ayresome Park was a fearsome place, now it's a shadow of what it was for this level of football.
Not sure what Charlton can do to change it, whether enough people even want to, but I tend to find a crackling atmosphere that's load & hostile is far more enjoyable than a sterile one.
thats all well and good (and a bit boring)... but did you like my nickname for ya new look bling bling stadium?
It was quite amusing, yes.
And I can be boring - my cousin says I'd fit in with him down the Valley quite well..as I too know a lot about average attendances...just need to brush up my train knowledge though.
well im glad you didnt really like the nickname, that would never do, your apathetic response is pleasing to me.
funny you should say that about your cousin and fitting in... my spanner cousin is always trying to get me to go to the new den with him but the fact i cant master the bermondsey bowl would be a real give away (well that and id look and feel like a proper wolly) stops me from going!
I'm from Walworth...so wouldn't bother with that Bermondsey nonsense either.
Walworth, Pwoper Geeza !!!
Yet you're posting from Haywards Heath.
"Another cream tea vicar ? Splendid !"
80% with SE post codes, mmm....
Apparently so - not sure it's that hard to believe. Is it? Southwark, Greenwhich and Lewisham have a combined population of around 775,000. We have 6,500 season ticket holders. Meaning that c.5,200 live amongst that 775,000 population.
Not hard to believe but hard to find a link to the survey?
Although you'll like to think that the majority of your fans live down the OKR it's simply not true. Having lived in both Bromley and Lewisham I know which area has the higher amount of millwall fans.
We're talking about season ticket holders though. Plenty of Millwall in Kent etc but are there more season ticket holders there than in all the SE postcodes?
thats all well and good (and a bit boring)... but did you like my nickname for ya new look bling bling stadium?
It was quite amusing, yes.
And I can be boring - my cousin says I'd fit in with him down the Valley quite well..as I too know a lot about average attendances...just need to brush up my train knowledge though.
well im glad you didnt really like the nickname, that would never do, your apathetic response is pleasing to me.
funny you should say that about your cousin and fitting in... my spanner cousin is always trying to get me to go to the new den with him but the fact i cant master the bermondsey bowl would be a real give away (well that and id look and feel like a proper wolly) stops me from going!
I'm from Walworth...so wouldn't bother with that Bermondsey nonsense either.
Walworth, Pwoper Geeza !!!
Yet you're posting from Haywards Heath.
"Another cream tea vicar ? Splendid !"
80% with SE post codes, mmm....
Apparently so - not sure it's that hard to believe. Is it? Southwark, Greenwhich and Lewisham have a combined population of around 775,000. We have 6,500 season ticket holders. Meaning that c.5,200 live amongst that 775,000 population.
Not hard to believe but hard to find a link to the survey?
Although you'll like to think that the majority of your fans live down the OKR it's simply not true. Having lived in both Bromley and Lewisham I know which area has the higher amount of millwall fans.
I think it's reasonable to say that Bermondsey, Rotherhithe and east Lewisham are the Millwall strongholds in SE London with noticable Millwall support still. With pockets in New Cross, Deptford, Walworth and Camberwell still.
Of course the whole area isn't awash with Lions fans anymore - society doesn't work like that these days. If we all still stayed in the area we grew up in the club would still be getting 30,000+.
There is no survey - it was brought up a MSC meeting, where the club divulged that the vast majority of season ticket holders had SE postcodes, where the majority of tickets for Wembley were purchased from Bromley, Bexleyheath, Greenwich, Dartford postcodes.
I did some work on the planning agreement for the regeneration scheme. First of all, it is a private company called Renewal (who have pretty deep pockets) who intend the develop what is called the Surrey Canal Triangle, rather than the Council.
It is a really difficult development. The area is criss-crossed with railway lines (and as is often the case where you have railway lines, utitily infrastructure) and is occupied by numerous industrial, warehouse and other uses - a compulsory purchase order will be required. The planning agreement requires huge contributions to the public realm before development can be occupied, including a multi-million pound contribution to a new train station.
I'm not a valuer but I've worked on lots of developments over the years and I will be stunned if this one ever gets built. It has the kind of costs you can get away with in a high value area like Chelsea but in Bermondsey next to a load of trains and a football stadium. I just can't see where the profit is.
Jints, I work costing developments such as these & I did some very quick back of the fag packet sums based on potential revenues for the residential units against the average cost for building them; there didn't appear to be the swells of profit one would anticipate.
As I said, they were very rough costs, but with the huge amount of work that needs doing, the logistics etc it's not as straightforward.
Interestingly the project is split into several phases, about 6 in all I think, with phases 1 & 2 being the multifaith centre & some resi I think....wouldn't be surprised if that was all that happened and development stopped for a while or some of the sporting facilities were scaled right back and replaced with more profitable uses such as more residential.
When you go up on the train & pass the old Silwood Estate (now called Bermondsey South) then further up is Bermondsey Spa, I'm shocked at just how dense the buildings now are. Those Spa apartments were something like £350k+ for a 2 bed, now their views look directly into someones bedroom 20 foot across the road. It's still the ethos of pile 'em high but still sell 'em high! I can see Renewal going down that route. Lessons ain't been learnt though from all the estates built years ago, we've got high value apartments in a not as desirable area being built densely with no porivision for local amenities.
My mate moved into Bermondsey South from Putney, he only ever used one pub that catered for the new types of people moving in. Other than he stayed in his flat. He has now gone to Surrey and is happy to be out of there. My concern is all the apartments will go the same way.
It wont be popular with many but I would go a bit further than Melrose and Hastingsaddick, I have no problem with Millwall, always got on well with their supporters and feel Charlton V Millwall games are the nearest to "banter" we get these days, its means more to both sets of fans than they would often care to admit but its about local bragging rights not rivalry or a grudge game.
I have been watching Charlton since the early 80's so was not around for them coming the covered end each week like some of the older lads on here and we are all affected by our own experiences, I cant wait to play them home and away this year and did not want them to go down for simply that reason. Rivalries are often irrational and so by the same token and at the point where I completely contradict myself, I dislike of Palace in all its forms knows no bounds, their support, their ground, their kit colours, their nickname and even their ever changing badge.
We have had many discussions on this previously so dont want to de-rail the thread further, good luck to Millwall's plan to extend, I hope we stuff them home and away with or without filled in corners and I know that bunny and sparrows wouldn't take that personally, when we play that other mob from North Surrey however the fear of defeat is as strong as the joy of victory so I would personally rather we never played them at all...
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Was a complete shithole and stank of piss mind.
New Dens about as intimidating as a tea party. You just can't take 15 year old wallies giving cut throat signs seriously. Pain in the arse getting in and out but thas it.
Welcome aswell by the way,
It is a really difficult development. The area is criss-crossed with railway lines (and as is often the case where you have railway lines, utitily infrastructure) and is occupied by numerous industrial, warehouse and other uses - a compulsory purchase order will be required. The planning agreement requires huge contributions to the public realm before development can be occupied, including a multi-million pound contribution to a new train station.
I'm not a valuer but I've worked on lots of developments over the years and I will be stunned if this one ever gets built. It has the kind of costs you can get away with in a high value area like Chelsea but in Bermondsey next to a load of trains and a football stadium. I just can't see where the profit is.
As I said, they were very rough costs, but with the huge amount of work that needs doing, the logistics etc it's not as straightforward.
Interestingly the project is split into several phases, about 6 in all I think, with phases 1 & 2 being the multifaith centre & some resi I think....wouldn't be surprised if that was all that happened and development stopped for a while or some of the sporting facilities were scaled right back and replaced with more profitable uses such as more residential.
When you go up on the train & pass the old Silwood Estate (now called Bermondsey South) then further up is Bermondsey Spa, I'm shocked at just how dense the buildings now are. Those Spa apartments were something like £350k+ for a 2 bed, now their views look directly into someones bedroom 20 foot across the road. It's still the ethos of pile 'em high but still sell 'em high! I can see Renewal going down that route. Lessons ain't been learnt though from all the estates built years ago, we've got high value apartments in a not as desirable area being built densely with no porivision for local amenities.
My mate moved into Bermondsey South from Putney, he only ever used one pub that catered for the new types of people moving in. Other than he stayed in his flat. He has now gone to Surrey and is happy to be out of there. My concern is all the apartments will go the same way.
The warehouses along Surrey Canal Road have already been purchased. The businesses at the back of the stadium have been told that when their lease ends they have to move out.
You're not sure where the profit is in 2,500 new homes within the shadow of Canary Wharf?
I find Palace and Charlton fans always trot out this line - as if our matches v them should be some kind of bear pit...when the truth is they on a level - hostility wise - with the likes of Brighton, Southampton or Gillingham. Big games, but not hooligan grudge ones.
Although Palace did cop it once - when they beat us 4-1. Apparently we went from being 'soft' and 'not scary anymore' to 'should be closed down' and 'terrifying'.
Seems a bit strange to me.
The land is safeguarded, but the funding certainly hasn't been paid. The agreement simply says how much will have to be paid.
I believe that options have been agreed with some of the occupiers but that doesn't mean they have been built out.
Of course 2,500 new homes can be sold and at decent prices (to be pedantic it is 2,400 and 12% are to be affordable). But this isn't agricultural land, it is a really difficult development site.
If Renewal can do it at a profit, I takle my hat off to them.
That Huddersfield game brought out these quotes... Although I take your point about us having grudge matches against the likes of Leeds and Cardiff - must seem a bit odd to others.
But, I find the whole Brighton v Palace thing odd.
So each to their own.
Guess my point is (and my Charlton cousin agrees) that Palace & Charlton fans are quite right to question this idea that Millwall create such an intimidating atmosphere...they've never seen it.
But it's a bit like saying Bears arent dangerous...cos you saw a young, drugged up female one with it's teeth removed on holiday.
Although you'll like to think that the majority of your fans live down the OKR it's simply not true. Having lived in both Bromley and Lewisham I know which area has the higher amount of millwall fans.
When a club has a reputation for noise, hostility etc when you go regularly you get sucked into that culture and become a part of it. Younger kids continue to thrive off the older people before them. If a club hasn't got that, like Palace, it's very hard and you end up having to make a concerted attempt at creating a group to create an atmosphere, hence their ultra group.
It goes back to an earlier theme in the thread, there are more "ultra" groups springing up, Palace, Leicester, Boro etc...to try & create an atmosphere. The familar thing is all clubs have spent time in the Prem and have moved on to attract the modern fan, which goes back to us saying Millwall are a decade behind all that.
We've not yet lost that culture, other clubs have & are trying to claw it back. Boro especially, Ayresome Park was a fearsome place, now it's a shadow of what it was for this level of football.
Not sure what Charlton can do to change it, whether enough people even want to, but I tend to find a crackling atmosphere that's load & hostile is far more enjoyable than a sterile one.
Of course the whole area isn't awash with Lions fans anymore - society doesn't work like that these days. If we all still stayed in the area we grew up in the club would still be getting 30,000+.
There is no survey - it was brought up a MSC meeting, where the club divulged that the vast majority of season ticket holders had SE postcodes, where the majority of tickets for Wembley were purchased from Bromley, Bexleyheath, Greenwich, Dartford postcodes.
I have been watching Charlton since the early 80's so was not around for them coming the covered end each week like some of the older lads on here and we are all affected by our own experiences, I cant wait to play them home and away this year and did not want them to go down for simply that reason. Rivalries are often irrational and so by the same token and at the point where I completely contradict myself, I dislike of Palace in all its forms knows no bounds, their support, their ground, their kit colours, their nickname and even their ever changing badge.
We have had many discussions on this previously so dont want to de-rail the thread further, good luck to Millwall's plan to extend, I hope we stuff them home and away with or without filled in corners and I know that bunny and sparrows wouldn't take that personally, when we play that other mob from North Surrey however the fear of defeat is as strong as the joy of victory so I would personally rather we never played them at all...