Don't think it's a decent Italian side at all. But if you let a team have 65% of the ball, they are going to look alright.
I think overall we've done alright, a lot of injuries & a manager who had 6 weeks to deal with a team. I think the fingers are pointing at the huge chasm between us & Germany, Spain etc and what we need to do to bridge the gap.
We can't go into 2014 with no expectations again & accept a 2nd round exit, need to show clear progress from now to then and that means pointing out our weaknesses and working on them.
Culturally, our football has always been no nonsense, the 'ave it approach of that Peter Kay advert....
The example that questions whether the problem is purely at a youth level is Swansea last season, where a team of journeymen pass and move very much in the Spanish style. Maybe Rogers can do the same at Liverpool, and work the same magic with the likes of Johnson and Henderson?
I have been banging on about this for years - you see on this site about people talking about how they can give their 7 year old teams a winning mentality etc... and you are close to the problem. It really doesn't matter - what matters is that they become better technical players and drills and practice are far more important at early ages than competetive matches.
The reason we have so many foreign players is because English ones are not as good technically. That is the fault of how we coach youngsters. Basically by 13 a kid needs to have all the required skills, talent with the ball - research has shown this- the rest can be taught later. We decide it is best to teach the wrong things too early - that is usually because we have ex Sunday League players coaching our youngsters and winning is the be all and end all. My son is a keeper and is part of a premier league club academy and a Saturday league side. I wouldn't let him play in the Saturday league side if he was an outfield player - it is useful to him as a keeper though.
Passing is not given the priority it should be- and by passing I mean the movement of the whole team supporting the passer - the vision to check out where people are before you have the ball, 100% accuracy on simple starightforward passess. For us, it is all about competing. It is in our culture- you see it at the Valley when we make backward passess - the moans you get! Unfortunately our football culture has been proven to be pre-historic and it is going to be difficult to change.
Barcelona don't look for the kid who can dribble past a whole team, they look for the kid who looks up. I see these kids at Saturday football level from time to time and also see that the coaches can't and sadly, they are not encouraged. Fortunately, watching the academy - you see that some youngsters are being encouraged to develop this so maybe the long term picture isn't all doom and gloom - but we are years behind.
We need more foreign minded technical coaches teaching kids in our game though.
< There's an abundance of foreign imports - some crap - in Portugal, Spain, Italy and Germany so can't see that it's the reason. I think that Floyd has hit the nail on the head.
You also have to remember that Italy and Germany are simply bigger countries.
It's a good point Morts in the case of Germany, but per capita figures I've conjured up below dont make encouraging reading for the future!
Italy has a million or so less people, but in a slightly larger land mass, Germany has 20 million more people, Spain about 15 million fewer.
So it works out that Germany has 1 coach per 2,357 population Italy has 1 coach per 2,005 Spain has I coach per 1 coach per 1,997 England (and Wales) has 1 coach per 18,418
Sorry I was going on Soccernomics, where they worked out populations vs performance - Wiki also reckons Italy is bigger (maybe you were looking at the UK population?)
Anyway, I think the coaching thing that you raise, is far more important. I also think that it's the attitude to coaching and thinking about the game. I remember all of the fuss in the media when it became mandatory to be qualified to be a manager. The other top european countries have had this in place for years. The rule didn't apply to managers that were in post - I recall Tony Cottee's reaction being that he needed to get himself a job, rather than a coaching qualification. Also TV's Gareth Southgate was allowed to not bother with qualifications because he'd been busy. Didn't turn out well.
I think I have mentioned before coaching a rugby team then refereeing a game one Saturday, then helping out with largely the same group for football the next day was an astonishing eye-opener. The differences in behaviour and attitude was extraordinary.
I have been banging on about this for years - you see on this site about people talking about how they can give their 7 year old teams a winning mentality etc... and you are close to the problem. It really doesn't matter - what matters is that they become better technical players and drills and practice are far more important at early ages than competetive matches.
The reason we have so many foreign players is because English ones are not as good technically. That is the fault of how we coach youngsters. Basically by 13 a kid needs to have all the required skills, talent with the ball - research has shown this- the rest can be taught later. We decide it is best to teach the wrong things too early - that is usually because we have ex Sunday League players coaching our youngsters and winning is the be all and end all. My son is a keeper and is part of a premier league club academy and a Saturday league side. I wouldn't let him play in the Saturday league side if he was an outfield player - it is useful to him as a keeper though.
Passing is not given the priority it should be- and by passing I mean the movement of the whole team supporting the passer - the vision to check out where people are before you have the ball, 100% accuracy on simple starightforward passess. For us, it is all about competing. It is in our culture- you see it at the Valley when we make backward passess - the moans you get! Unfortunately our football culture has been proven to be pre-historic and it is going to be difficult to change.
Barcelona don't look for the kid who can dribble past a whole team, they look for the kid who looks up. I see these kids at Saturday football level from time to time and also see that the coaches can't and sadly, they are not encouraged. Fortunately, watching the academy - you see that some youngsters are being encouraged to develop this so maybe the long term picture isn't all doom and gloom - but we are years behind.
We need more foreign minded technical coaches teaching kids in our game though.
You are spot on Muttley.This is what i think but couldn't be bothered to type.There should be a blueprint throughout the age groups of how England should play and it should be the patient passing game ala Spain,mixed in with the German style.This will take many years to implement so we have to be patient.Both at club and international level,as Muttley says it is the culture that needs changing.I get fed up at the Valley when we are one or two nil up,people are shouting for us to get it up the pitch.What we need to do is hold onto the ball a bit better and if we have to pass it back it doesn't matter because we are retaining possession.I am pleased that our own academy are preaching a more passing game and the technical ability of our youngsters is better than it has ever been.
But it need not take years Brendan Rogers managed it at Swansea in one close season and not with 7-year olds but with grown up pro footballers, mostly British as well and there lies the conundrum.
Some food for thought, who remembers Owen Hargreaves... a player untouched by English coaching as he was in the Bayern system. Relatively unheard of in my opinion until his WC theatrics, was our player of the tournament and had a different style, too bad his career was riddled with injuries at the end and he peaked later but thats the way the cookie crumbles. **As in he wasnt consistently selected for the national team**
It all comes down to no one can name an English player(on the national team) outside of England and i think this effects us as we dont get use to other styles of play. Italians, Spanish, French, they play all over the world
But it need not take years Brendan Rogers managed it at Swansea in one close season and not with 7-year olds but with grown up pro footballers, mostly British as well and there lies the conundrum.
But it wasn't in one close Season.Swansea's acadamies and first team players had been playing that way for years under the guidance of Sousa,Martinez and Rogers.You need to decide on the blueprint and stick to it.
A lot of it is down to the standard of kids coaching, ours is shocking, result is everything in kids football, I have stood on the touchline and seen this with my own eyes, kids need to learn techinque rather than tactics, your average English player has very poor technical ability. And we need to do something to limit the a amount of foriegn rubbish, players like Amdy Faye and Djimi Traore being signed by clubs is not good for our national side.
Some food for thought, who remembers Owen Hargreaves... a player untouched by English coaching as he was in the Bayern system. Relatively unheard of in my opinion until his WC theatrics, was our player of the tournament and had a different style, too bad his career was riddled with injuries at the end and he peaked later but thats the way the cookie crumbles. **As in he wasnt consistently selected for the national team**
It all comes down to no one can name an English player(on the national team) outside of England and i think this effects us as we dont get use to other styles of play. Italians, Spanish, French, they play all over the world
I thought he was decent in the game against Portugal when we went down to ten men. Up until that point I thought he was absolutely dreadful for the national team. Everyone seems to remember that one game though and deem him some sort of lost gem.
I watch a lot of my son's coaching - a) because it interests me and b) beacuse I coach him and it gives me pointers to work on. I have witnessed some terrible coaching sessions and some excellent ones - The Saturday side has 1 to 1.5 hours a week training and too much time is spent without the ball - warming up is important but shouldn't drag on. They should spend a lot of time on ball control - keepy uppies etc... and given 'homework' to practice and improve. Samll sided matches should be stopped to make points- this is annoying for players so in time they try to do the right things so they are not constantly interupted. A particularly bad session had them competing with sliding tackles which was needlessly dangerous and pointless and in that same session they were advised 'if somebody goes past you, bring them down'!
I watch a lot of my son's coaching - a) because it interests me and b) beacuse I coach him and it gives me pointers to work on. I have witnessed some terrible coaching sessions and some excellent ones - The Saturday side has 1 to 1.5 hours a week training and too much time is spent without the ball - warming up is important but shouldn't drag on. They should spend a lot of time on ball control - keepy uppies etc... and given 'homework' to practice and improve. Samll sided matches should be stopped to make points- this is annoying for players so in time they try to do the right things so they are not constantly interupted. A particularly bad session had them competing with sliding tackles which was needlessly dangerous and pointless and in that same session they were advised 'if somebody goes past you, bring them down'!
It is a FA Charter club - I don't want to knock individuals because they give up their time for no reward and they think they are doing the best for the kids. When you are part of a club like theses, there is a pressure to win things too and it is a bit like the dark side of the force- a more direct style can be effective in youth football but it lets the kids down when they are older and come up against better technical players who despite not playing competetive matches when they were 6, they somehow seem just as determined to win as the English boys!!!
As I'm not a coach, couldn't most warm ups be done with a ball? Whether it's laps around the pitch keeping the ball under control, or a group of 6 progressing the length of the pitch passing the ball constantly etc etc? Seems better to have kids constantly with a ball rather than without.
I think 5 mins of warming up without the ball is best and fine - kids should be shown how to effectively warm up. When you have drills with 10 or more players queing up for a turn, split it into 2 and you double the turnover.
I did mention about stopping small sided games regularly to make points - but this doesn't mean stopping kids trying things. praise them when they try something, even if it doesn't come off - you learn a lot by trying and failling instead of being afraid to try something.
Our problem against Italy - we just did not have that quality creative attacking central midfield man which might have improved our performance level in an attacking sence.
I think they are trying - they have got kids playing with less players on smaller pitches and plan to go further. There is resistance to this but th eidea is sound -give kids more time on the ball in matches.
We need: 1. More coaches qualified to a higher level (a point already excellently made by Floyd). 2. To lose the "hoof it" mentality. Football for youngsters should not be seen as win at all costs. It should be primarily about enjoying the game, secondarily about developing skills and only after those two about winning. Coaches need to understand this and parents need to be educated that bellowing "get stuck in" and this like is not helpful. 3. Better facilities. My boy's team (not that he's likely to be a professional, but I have high hopes for one of his friends) has recently had a few training sessions cancelled due to bad weather. Meanwhile the sports hall in our village remains firmly padlocked because the council cannot afford to employ any staff to keep it open. If the weather is that bad that they can't train outside, they should be indoors playing futsal (or similar). 4. To stop fannying around and get intermediate sized football organised across the board for 10-13 year olds. The step up from mini soccer to full sized soccer is just too big and means that teams become dependant on having one or two big lads who can thump a ball over the head of a keeper who hasn't got a chance of defending and 8' high goal. 5. To rip those bloody Playstations out of the wall and teach our kids to live in the real world rather than pixelland (not that I've personally dared to try this with mine).
Agree with all. All that lottery money not being spent should be diverted to building floodlit 3g pitches at ALL schools. It is no good complaining about fat kids when it is too dark to play out for six months+ a year. Then they can play all year even if it is a bit wet. Schools will be able to rent out at other times and get an income to help support the school in other sport etc. No team should be coached by someone who is not qualified to do so. Hearing coaches swearing at 9 year olds is just so sad. Competitive leagues and cups banned until kids are (say) 14 so the win at all cost "hoof ball" mentallity is replaced by pass and move (sorry all you dads that want to dress up in your kids team kit on sat mornings and play 'manager' with the kids). The point about 11 a side at 10 on a full size pitch so spot on. I will not be letting my son play this as it is a joke. Maidstone are trying to start a break away league to play 9 a side next year on 1/2 a full pitch. Hopefully there will be enough support from those who have the interest in developing their girls and boys in soccer skills for this to get off the ground. Abolish the FA and start again with people who have been involved in the playing of football - not doing the books in an office!
Floyd Montana has this nailed. We have players with poor technique because we don't have enough coaches to progress those players who show enough ability and get them away from the Sam Allardyces of this world who continue to earn a good living at the highest level.
Not enough home grown........coaches This was the situation after the last World Cup, that the FA said would be addressed. • Only 2,769 English coaches hold Uefa's B, A and Pro badges • Spain has 23,995, Italy 29,420 and Germany 34,790
I tried to do my coaching badge at Meridian sports around 20 years ago, when the FA were still advocating the Charles Hughes 'long ball' approach. The whole thing was a farce - I knew after about an hour that I'd be failed. The bell-end who took the course (ex failed pro) was only interested in a few of his mates who'd booked themselves in for obvious reasons.
Decided to turn my back on the whole thing. I figured that if the FA were willing to allow these types to deliver their courses, then I'd be better off out of it. Over the course of the last 20 years I've meet a fair few qualified coaches and the majority of them are wankers, who shouldn't be let loose anywhere near kids learning the game.
Not enough home grown........coaches This was the situation after the last World Cup, that the FA said would be addressed. • Only 2,769 English coaches hold Uefa's B, A and Pro badges • Spain has 23,995, Italy 29,420 and Germany 34,790
I tried to do my coaching badge at Meridian sports around 20 years ago, when the FA were still advocating the Charles Hughes 'long ball' approach. The whole thing was a farce - I knew after about an hour that I'd be failed. The bell-end who took the course (ex failed pro) was only interested in a few of his mates who'd booked themselves in for obvious reasons.
Decided to turn my back on the whole thing. I figured that if the FA were willing to allow these types to deliver their courses, then I'd be better off out of it. Over the course of the last 20 years I've meet a fair few qualified coaches and the majority of them are wankers, who shouldn't be let loose anywhere near kids learning the game.
Comments
I think overall we've done alright, a lot of injuries & a manager who had 6 weeks to deal with a team. I think the fingers are pointing at the huge chasm between us & Germany, Spain etc and what we need to do to bridge the gap.
We can't go into 2014 with no expectations again & accept a 2nd round exit, need to show clear progress from now to then and that means pointing out our weaknesses and working on them.
The example that questions whether the problem is purely at a youth level is Swansea last season, where a team of journeymen pass and move very much in the Spanish style. Maybe Rogers can do the same at Liverpool, and work the same magic with the likes of Johnson and Henderson?
Still stand by my comments there
The reason we have so many foreign players is because English ones are not as good technically. That is the fault of how we coach youngsters. Basically by 13 a kid needs to have all the required skills, talent with the ball - research has shown this- the rest can be taught later. We decide it is best to teach the wrong things too early - that is usually because we have ex Sunday League players coaching our youngsters and winning is the be all and end all. My son is a keeper and is part of a premier league club academy and a Saturday league side. I wouldn't let him play in the Saturday league side if he was an outfield player - it is useful to him as a keeper though.
Passing is not given the priority it should be- and by passing I mean the movement of the whole team supporting the passer - the vision to check out where people are before you have the ball, 100% accuracy on simple starightforward passess. For us, it is all about competing. It is in our culture- you see it at the Valley when we make backward passess - the moans you get! Unfortunately our football culture has been proven to be pre-historic and it is going to be difficult to change.
Barcelona don't look for the kid who can dribble past a whole team, they look for the kid who looks up. I see these kids at Saturday football level from time to time and also see that the coaches can't and sadly, they are not encouraged. Fortunately, watching the academy - you see that some youngsters are being encouraged to develop this so maybe the long term picture isn't all doom and gloom - but we are years behind.
We need more foreign minded technical coaches teaching kids in our game though.
Anyway, I think the coaching thing that you raise, is far more important. I also think that it's the attitude to coaching and thinking about the game. I remember all of the fuss in the media when it became mandatory to be qualified to be a manager. The other top european countries have had this in place for years. The rule didn't apply to managers that were in post - I recall Tony Cottee's reaction being that he needed to get himself a job, rather than a coaching qualification. Also TV's Gareth Southgate was allowed to not bother with qualifications because he'd been busy. Didn't turn out well.
(unrelated to this discussion the cia worldfactbook is a brilliant resource https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/ )
I think I have mentioned before coaching a rugby team then refereeing a game one Saturday, then helping out with largely the same group for football the next day was an astonishing eye-opener.
The differences in behaviour and attitude was extraordinary.
It all comes down to no one can name an English player(on the national team) outside of England and i think this effects us as we dont get use to other styles of play. Italians, Spanish, French, they play all over the world
And we need to do something to limit the a amount of foriegn rubbish, players like Amdy Faye and Djimi Traore being signed by clubs is not good for our national side.
I did mention about stopping small sided games regularly to make points - but this doesn't mean stopping kids trying things. praise them when they try something, even if it doesn't come off - you learn a lot by trying and failling instead of being afraid to try something.
are the fa going to do anything is anything proposed?
When I was that age I remember 11 a side and full size pitches.
The whole thing was a farce - I knew after about an hour that I'd be failed.
The bell-end who took the course (ex failed pro) was only interested in a few of his mates who'd booked themselves in for obvious reasons.
Decided to turn my back on the whole thing. I figured that if the FA were willing to allow these types to deliver their courses, then I'd be better off out of it.
Over the course of the last 20 years I've meet a fair few qualified coaches and the majority of them are wankers, who shouldn't be let loose anywhere near kids learning the game.
Not that I'm bitter.