Interesting that in Kish's response they state that police don't like local derbies on boxing day and on their website state that they also don't do local derbies on NYE because of this. Yet the met have allowed a derby to go ahead in the evening on NYE.
TBF I think it's unlikely that you need a big police presence for Orient A at 5.20 on New Years' Eve.
Well, I think there are very few games involving Charlton away in the 3rd Division where you need a big police presence. Would you need a big presence for Charlton v Brentford on Boxing Day? I dont think so. I want to get to the bottom of this one, because I suspect that the police have suspended their normal objections (which I consider are often unreasonable) because of Sky. if I am right, that is a very interesting state of affairs. Of course, one can ask the police under an FOI request, and I might just do that.
I'm not following you. The Orient game was due to KO at 3pm. What have the police got to do with it, because it's been moved to 5.20 for Sky?
Some great points, particularly on the boxing day game. I suspect that the computer splits the league into northern and southern and that's why things like this happen. A quick glance at the day's fixtures by a human being with a map might well have resulted in the sensible solution that PA suggests.
On the NYE game I suspect we're p-ing into the wind. The league, club and yes, the fans have merrily sold their souls to newscorp so all the moaning when it doesn't suit us is understandable but pointless.
I want to understand: 1. Why plod has lifted it's objections to derbies on NYE while retaining their objections to Boxing Day
2. Why plod has not objected to a game which- by their own twisted way of thinking- involves two sets of Fans who could start their NYE drinking all afternoon and then tip out together on the NYE streets at 8.30. They would normally go ballistic at the very idea. That was the argument why in the past we had to tip up in the morning on Boxing day as we couldn't be trusted with a 3.00 ko. Now suddenly it's all ok. Funny that, when many people on this board have already declared themselves to be tanked up for this one in advance.
I want to understand: 1. Why plod has lifted it's objections to derbies on NYE while retaining their objections to Boxing Day
2. Why plod has not objected to a game which- by their own twisted way of thinking- involves two sets of Fans who could start their NYE drinking all afternoon and then tip out together on the NYE streets at 8.30. They would normally go ballistic at the very idea. That was the argument why in the past we had to tip up in the morning on Boxing day as we couldn't be trusted with a 3.00 ko. Now suddenly it's all ok. Funny that, when many people on this board have already declared themselves to be tanked up for this one in advance.
The below text is lifted from Dr Kish above. I take this to mean that policing costs are more expensive on Boxing Day as this is usually a Bank Holiday & therefore higher police pay.
Presumably, NYE is less expensive to police.
If you've been to Orient A in the last couple of years (not sure if you have as live abroad now), I should imagine you would concur that the police wouldn't have too many concerns, as you hardly see an Orient supporter. The only pub close to the ground is rammed full of Charlton supporters. I'm not saying there are no Orient supporters in there, but I didn't see one. More chance of a punch up in Sainsbury's I'd say.
"There is ultimately a police objection to local derbies being played on Boxing Day. Local derbies usually mean increased police presence and therefore costs, and ultimately clubs and local authorities liaise over the safety of such fixtures. In addition clubs also object to derbies being played over the festive period as these are usually lucrative fixtures for them and they would not want to schedule them for a date that usually sees an upturn in attendance anyway, thus reducing their number of ‘prime fixture dates"
Richard, when the fixtures were first published in July I e-mailed regarding a) the Boxing Day fiasco and b) the number of 'local' games (MK Dons/Wycombe/Colchester) to be played on Tuesdays. The answer to b) related to saving on travel expense for the clubs - i.e Wycombe on Tuesday is easier than Rochdale- which is fair enough in its way, while the suggestion of Orient v Charlton for Boxing Day, suggested by both clubs, was apparently vetoed by.....the police. (I'm sure the police must be good at something, but I've yet to discover what after best part of 65 years on the planet!)
"while the suggestion of Orient v Charlton for Boxing Day, suggested by both clubs, was apparently vetoed by.....the police."
Clive...did you get that info in writing from the FL.?
Because if so, and based on what Ross has pointed out above, the police seriously owe us an explanation. And I am going to get it from them, using the WhatDoTheyKnow FOI website ( I am keen to use that website as much as possible as I helping to set one up for the Czech Republic)
So could you just confirm what exactly was the reply you got...Thanks!
Richard, I'm going to search my gmail archives for the reply from the FL, sadly long-since deleted from my Outlook Express folders...will let you know either way Clive
Many thanks for your email regarding the scheduling of fixtures.
Regarding your queries, The League is under instructions from the clubs to achieve mid-range journeys for midweek fixtures, it is very likely therefore, as there are 6 midweeks in the schedule, that this fixture will crop up.
With regards to Boxing Day, Leyton Orient‘s police raise objections to playing Charlton on this day.
Unfortunately it is very difficult to please all fans with regards to all fixtures. Instead The Football League works with the clubs themselves in attempting to shape fixture lists that meet the majority of clubs’ approval. This is due to the complex methodology involved in the compilation of the fixture lists.
The fixtures are worked on for many months by The Football League’s competitions department and our fixture scheduling partners. During this time all considerations and requests from all clubs are considered by The Football League, to get to a position where most are satisfied with the final list.
Along with certain basic competition rules on home and away frequencies, often there are several circumstances which dictate when fixtures will fall and many are specific to individual clubs (such as when near neighbours are home/away or whether there is a local public event/activity taking place on a certain date).
Once the fixture lists have been compiled, Clubs will consult the Football League’s competitions department to attempt to mould their fixture list in their favour but it is extremely difficult to meet all clubs’ requests. The League will be fair in working with all member clubs but can only look at their specific requests, not simply adhere to all requests to have Boxing Day at home for example. There may be specific reasons why a club has indicated they might wish to play a certain fixture at home or away so it might be worth consulting with the Club regarding a specific date/change.
Top man Clive. I am going to submit an FOI request to the Met Police asking them to explain how Chelsea-Fulham on Boxing Day is OK, while Orient-Charlton is not.
I should imagine the local borough commander decided he didn't want to have to send any officers to Orient on Boxing Day, which he couldn't do with Charlton. There is a level of discretion at that level and not much public accountability. Not all decisions are made at Scotland Yard.
I should imagine the local borough commander decided he didn't want to have to send any officers to Orient on Boxing Day, which he couldn't do with Charlton. There is a level of discretion at that level and not much public accountability. Not all decisions are made at Scotland Yard.
Really? It's made at local level, with no common policy across the Met area?
What actually happened with the Orient game? How come Solaraddick was aware that originally the Orient game was going to be on Boxing Day but that the police objected?
I'm asking so that I put a nice sharp FOI request together :-)
I should imagine the local borough commander decided he didn't want to have to send any officers to Orient on Boxing Day, which he couldn't do with Charlton. There is a level of discretion at that level and not much public accountability. Not all decisions are made at Scotland Yard.
Really? It's made at local level, with no common policy across the Met area?
What actually happened with the Orient game? How come Solaraddick was aware that originally the Orient game was going to be on Boxing Day but that the police objected?
I'm asking so that I put a nice sharp FOI request together :-)
I really have no idea. We (SMT) only see the fixtures about an hour before you do. Chris Parkes may know more, but I think the League only looks at them from a football perspective.
BTW a good question would be how they justify the fact that after Orient we will have played 10 at home and 13 away.
I should imagine the local borough commander decided he didn't want to have to send any officers to Orient on Boxing Day, which he couldn't do with Charlton. There is a level of discretion at that level and not much public accountability. Not all decisions are made at Scotland Yard.
Really? It's made at local level, with no common policy across the Met area?
What actually happened with the Orient game? How come Solaraddick was aware that originally the Orient game was going to be on Boxing Day but that the police objected?
I'm asking so that I put a nice sharp FOI request together :-)
I really have no idea. We (SMT) only see the fixtures about an hour before you do. Chris Parkes may know more, but I think the League only looks at them from a football perspective.
BTW a good question would be how they justify the fact that after Orient we will have played 10 at home and 13 away.
1. On Boxing Day, Wycombe play Exeter. I quote from your website: "One thing I feed into the computer in advance are the Boxing Day games, these are hand picked to ensure that travel is minimised because there is no public transport anywhere in England." Why did your fixture working group not do the obvious thing, and have Wycombe play Charlton while Yeovil played Exeter in a classic derby game?
Problem with this is that game is happening over the christmas period anyway, so I imagine they'll suggest that you do a little more research. On that day every other team has been matched up with someone reasonably close. We've got two London games out of the three and because of their remoteness Exeter and Yeovil are always going to be a problem for someone.
Interesting that in Kish's response they state that police don't like local derbies on boxing day and on their website state that they also don't do local derbies on NYE because of this. Yet the met have allowed a derby to go ahead in the evening on NYE.
Cos Palace bring about 3 coaches of wallys to The Den, so the only authorities required at Millwall will be the men in white coats to take the nigels away.
1. On Boxing Day, Wycombe play Exeter. I quote from your website: "One thing I feed into the computer in advance are the Boxing Day games, these are hand picked to ensure that travel is minimised because there is no public transport anywhere in England." Why did your fixture working group not do the obvious thing, and have Wycombe play Charlton while Yeovil played Exeter in a classic derby game?
Problem with this is that game is happening over the christmas period anyway, so I imagine they'll suggest that you do a little more research. On that day every other team has been matched up with someone reasonably close. We've got two London games out of the three and because of their remoteness Exeter and Yeovil are always going to be a problem for someone.
You are right, I see that Exeter play Yeovil on 2nd Jan. However, we are being asked to travel for four hours, on a day where there is no public transport. That is exceptional. And it is another issue. If the football authorities cared two figs about their customers they'd be making strong recommendations to the Government that the trains should be running. Its another thing that does my head in. We are the only country in Europe where nothing at all runs on the day after the Christmas celebration.
If we had to play yeovil away then the best day would have been the jan game, and have the two london games on boxing day and new years eve. I understand that its hard, but the first thing they should do I pencil in all local games for boxing day, so yeovil vs exeter, fulham vs chelsea, west brom vs aston villa etc etc
Comments
Some great points, particularly on the boxing day game. I suspect that the computer splits the league into northern and southern and that's why things like this happen. A quick glance at the day's fixtures by a human being with a map might well have resulted in the sensible solution that PA suggests.
On the NYE game I suspect we're p-ing into the wind. The league, club and yes, the fans have merrily sold their souls to newscorp so all the moaning when it doesn't suit us is understandable but pointless.
I want to understand:
1. Why plod has lifted it's objections to derbies on NYE while retaining their objections to Boxing Day
2. Why plod has not objected to a game which- by their own twisted way of thinking- involves two sets of
Fans who could start their NYE drinking all afternoon and then tip out together on the NYE streets at 8.30. They would normally go ballistic at the very idea. That was the argument why in the past we had to tip up in the morning on Boxing day as we couldn't be trusted with a 3.00 ko. Now suddenly it's all ok. Funny that, when many people on this board have already declared themselves to be tanked up for this one in advance.
The below text is lifted from Dr Kish above. I take this to mean that policing costs are more expensive on Boxing Day as this is usually a Bank Holiday & therefore higher police pay.
Presumably, NYE is less expensive to police.
If you've been to Orient A in the last couple of years (not sure if you have as live abroad now), I should imagine you would concur that the police wouldn't have too many concerns, as you hardly see an Orient supporter. The only pub close to the ground is rammed full of Charlton supporters. I'm not saying there are no Orient supporters in there, but I didn't see one. More chance of a punch up in Sainsbury's I'd say.
"There is ultimately a police objection to local derbies being played on Boxing Day. Local derbies usually mean increased police presence and therefore costs, and ultimately clubs and local authorities liaise over the safety of such fixtures. In addition clubs also object to derbies being played over the festive period as these are usually lucrative fixtures for them and they would not want to schedule them for a date that usually sees an upturn in attendance anyway, thus reducing their number of ‘prime fixture dates"
So that's why Fulham are playing Chelsea then....
Either someone in the Met, or more likely the FA doesn't understand the distinction between a "local derby" and a match between two local teams.
CAFC vs Palace/W Ham/Millwall = Derby, CAFC vs Orient/Fulham/QPR/Spurs/Brentford/Arsenal/Chelsea = local match
The answer to b) related to saving on travel expense for the clubs - i.e Wycombe on Tuesday is easier than Rochdale- which is fair enough in its way, while the suggestion of Orient v Charlton for Boxing Day, suggested by both clubs, was apparently vetoed by.....the police. (I'm sure the police must be good at something, but I've yet to discover what after best part of 65 years on the planet!)
Clive
Found it, Richard - from June 17
Clive,
Many thanks for your email regarding the scheduling of fixtures.
Regarding
your queries, The League is under instructions from the clubs to
achieve mid-range journeys for midweek fixtures, it is very likely
therefore, as there are 6 midweeks in the schedule, that this fixture
will crop up.
With regards to Boxing Day, Leyton Orient‘s police raise objections to playing Charlton on this day.
Unfortunately
it is very difficult to please all fans with regards to all fixtures.
Instead The Football League works with the clubs themselves in
attempting to shape fixture lists that meet the majority of clubs’
approval. This is due to the complex methodology involved in the
compilation of the fixture lists.
The
fixtures are worked on for many months by The Football League’s
competitions department and our fixture scheduling partners. During this
time all considerations and requests from all clubs are considered by
The Football League, to get to a position where most are satisfied with
the final list.
Along
Oncewith certain basic competition rules on home and away frequencies,
often there are several circumstances which dictate when fixtures will
fall and many are specific to individual clubs (such as when near
neighbours are home/away or whether there is a local public
event/activity taking place on a certain date).
the fixture lists have been compiled, Clubs will consult the Football
League’s competitions department to attempt to mould their fixture list
in their favour but it is extremely difficult to meet all clubs’
requests. The League will be fair in working with all member clubs but
can only look at their specific requests, not simply adhere to all
requests to have Boxing Day at home for example. There may be specific
reasons why a club has indicated they might wish to play a certain
fixture at home or away so it might be worth consulting with the Club
regarding a specific date/change.
Andrew Pomfret
Customer Services Officer
The Football League LimitedI really have no idea. We (SMT) only see the fixtures about an hour before you do. Chris Parkes may know more, but I think the League only looks at them from a football perspective.
BTW a good question would be how they justify the fact
that after Orient we will have played 10 at home and 13 away.
Problem with this is that game is happening over the christmas period anyway, so I imagine they'll suggest that you do a little more research. On that day every other team has been matched up with someone reasonably close. We've got two London games out of the three and because of their remoteness Exeter and Yeovil are always going to be a problem for someone.
Club secretary