Everyone's usually pretty helpful on here so thought i'd ask.
This morning I got on at a station that has no ticket machiene or office, as usual expecting to buy one on the train when a ticket man come, however he never did. I arrived at Maidstone East (where I work) and there was a few southern eastern workers checking tickets before they let anyone through, I tried explaining to a woman the situation and she was having none of it, apparently I was suppose to walk through the train to find the ticket man!? She then tried giving me a fine, and told me to write down my name and address on a pad etc... I wrote my name and the first line of my address then had a change in thought and said theres no way Im paying £20 when I did nothing wrong, I refuse, she then thought she was funny by saying "oh well your have to get the train back home then" so I walked of slowly and went round the corner where there is a metal gate which they had locked so no-one could leave but clever old me decided to run and jump over without anyone noticing from southern eastern.
I was just wondering if you guys think they can fine, or find me with the details I gave?
I know I probably shouldn't of done it but I was late for work as it was and I'm struggling for money as it is!
once you never signed nothing they can do -amyone can give an address they need the signature
to be fair i think he wanted to pay but then objected to being fined when he hadnt had an opportunity to buy a ticket - unreasonable in my book - what are you supposed to do search for a ticket inspector.....
Yes, that is exactly what you supposed to do.
You are required to make every effort to pay for your travel.
Would you walk into a supermarket, get a barsket full of items, walk up to a till, see its unmanned and think no one is here so i'll just walk out with the shopping? No, you'd walk around until you found a till open. It isn't that hard to find a conductor on the train!
There is never a conductor on southeastern services I use. Never ever. Don't exist.
As for clives comment really? I always feel ashamed when I've forgotten my season ticket and have to stand there while they make that call which always takes for ever and get talked down to. And that's someone with a season ticket. Imagine not having one.
I find it funny when inspectors are occasionally at Charlton after work. Amount of people that get caught.
if i get on a train without a ticket and the inspectors show up, if i say the ticket machine at the (previous) station wouldn't accept my credit card and i was actively looking for you there's nothing they can do?
Would you walk into a supermarket, get a barsket full of items, walk up to a till, see its unmanned and think no one is here so i'll just walk out with the shopping? No, you'd walk around until you found a till open. It isn't that hard to find a conductor on the train!
Yes I would - if all the self-service tills are not working (or if none exist) and all the checkout staff are in the office behind a locked door.
Search for a ticket inspector on South Eastern trains? Lucky if the bloody driver turns up most mornings. Utter shambles of a train company and 90% (not all) of their public- "serving" staff that I've had the misfortune of interacting with come across as complete tossers..
There is supposed to be a way of appealing - according to Southeastern's wesbsite: "If you wish to appeal against a Penalty Fare you must put this in writing within 21 days of the issue date and send it to the appeals address on the Penalty Fare notice – the Independent Penalty Fares Appeals Service (IPFAS).". Guess who actually runs the IPFAS?
There is supposed to be a way of appealing - according to Southeastern's wesbsite: "If you wish to appeal against a Penalty Fare you must put this in writing within 21 days of the issue date and send it to the appeals address on the Penalty Fare notice – the Independent Penalty Fares Appeals Service (IPFAS).". Guess who actually runs the IPFAS?
Only time I've ever been done I made a genuine mistake and got on one stop (one!) outside my Travelcard area. But you can't make genuine mistakes with these people. My daughter was crying and my autistic son was getting understandably upset by the situation, and the stonehearted jobsworth still nicked me. Yes, I know I was in the wrong, but you think the fella would taken stock of the situation I was in with two upset, confused kids and shown a bit of pity. I stupidly got angry and hurled a stream of insults at him, mostly about his shabby uniform, then did an obviously really rubbish scribble for my signature. He handed a copy to me, which I promptly screwed up. Stupid behaviour in front of my kids, and totally out of character. Made me feel even more embarrassed...
What a great service these people provide. I bet they secretly dream of becoming traffic wardens.
EDIT: Actually, that behaviour was not so much out of character. I once screwed up a receipt and chucked it really hard at a defiantly unhelpful sales assistant's forehead in a hi-fi shop.
EDIT: Actually, that behaviour was not so much out of character. I once screwed up a receipt and chucked it really hard at a defiantly unhelpful sales assistant's forehead in a hi-fi shop.
Was that you?
My uncle was in hospital for days after that and is still helping the Police with their enquiries.
Ha ha. In that case I'd paid £40 for a pair of earphones for my iPod and the plastic started stripping away from the wire. I'd had them about a month and still had the receipt, so I took them back and asked for a replacement pair. No refund. A replacement. This dick behind the counter sniffed the wire (!) and proclaimed that it smelled of water (!!) and that I must have been dropping the earphones in water (!!!), which is quite the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.
Anyway, one thing led to another and I chucked the screwed-up receipt at his forehead and left the shop shouting to all the other customers. 'This shop is sh*t! Don't shop here, you'll get stitched up!' Again, very childish of me, but I felt better.
I got home and told my missus, she explained my consumer rights and said she'd take great pleasure in pursuing it further. She then asked where the receipt was, I had to tell her that I'd chucked it at the bloke's head. Needless to say, she walked off shaking her head and repeating incredulously, 'You chucked it at the man's head!'
Fare dodging is wrong but so is the inflexible way that the ticket inspectors deal with fines. There can be good reasons why somebody hasn't got a ticket- my station recently had one ticket office open with a massive queue and people faced the option of being late for work or boarding the train without a ticket. I think if somebody who has not got a ticket makes the effort to pay or has a good excuse they shouldn't have to pay a fine. I have seen ticket inspectors agree and sympathise to passengers but say - I still have to fine you but suggest you appeal - what nonsense. And it doesn't affect me as I have a season ticket.
I think in this case the Penalty Fares Rules comes in - Rule 7 (4), which states that a penalty fare must not be charged "if ... there were no facilities available for selling the appropriate ticket or other authority for the journey the person wanted to make".
The Rules themselves do not define what "no facilities available" means. But in separate guidance on penalty fares ("Penalty Fares Policy") issued by the Department for Transport, it is made quite clear, in clauses 4.2 and 4.11, that passengers must be given "sufficient opportunity" to buy a ticket and that regular queues over three minutes (off-peak) and five minutes (peak) breach the definition of what is "sufficient".
You should not have to walk up and down a train looking for a ticket person they should be looking for you after checking at which station you got on and in which carriage (that is their job and what they are paid for)
Also as you offered to pay, they should never have started issuing a ticket. I have in the last year made the journey from Welling to Waterloo East with out a ticket due to the size of the queue and I always make a beeline for the older or the most senior ticket inspector (they are the one with the ticket machine) and buy my ticket. Only once or twice have they tried it on, I just smile say I do not think so queue was to long and your company is not making me late (later) because I missed the train.
A friend just told me to buy a "right to travel" thing for 10p then they cannot fine you.
This is true.
Always carry a 10p and put it in to get the permit to travel. This shows that you made an attempt to pay for your fare. Provided you have this, you can not be fined.
On Southeastern Metro trains from within the area of around Dartford/Sevnoaks boarders the trains do not have conductors/guards and haven't had them since the sliding door trains came into service. Most (if not all) mainline trains do have them.
I'm still a child (15) and on my way to work experience so I was dressed nicer than usual and may have looked older. however I don't think I looked like an adult but as the conductor comes up to me and I give him my ticket he say's that I require an adult ticket. I have nothing to prove on me that I'm 15 so I kindly offer after an argument that I'll pay for an adult ticket even though I'm 15. He say's that i'll have to play a fine but after much more arguing he accept's that i'm 15 and let's me on my way. what a great bit of commute experience for me to remember
Some train companies will do anything to catch you out. Others are really helpful. Or perhaps that's just people. Some are kind and some are a***holes.
Here is a tip though. If you are going up to Rochdale or somewhere up north and have a cheap advance ticket you need not just the ticket but also the seat reservation that comes with it - something you'd probably chuck away as a useless and unnecessary bit of tat. If you are on a cheap ticket you need it or they will charge you the full walk up fare which I can assure you is fiendishly expensive. You could buy a six month season ticket for the Valley for less!
I have come to the conclusion that inspectors have targets which I think is wrong when it comes to fines. Common sense is built out of the system. I am all for genuine fare dodgers getting done but no
Best thing to do, if you think you have a case, refuse to pay them anything because you're not obliged to on the spot (you can pay the fine at your local station at a later date.) and then appeal it. I've had to deal with the train Nazis more than once. First time from New Beckenham, where office was closed and ticket machine was not working. Got to Charing Cross and qued up before gates to buy a ticket from the booth there. I was issued a fine whilst in the que trying to buy a ticket! I was furious. I said you can give me the fine but I'm not giving you a penny. I appealed it no problem.
Second time from Shortlands, again, unmanned ticket office and machine was only accepting 'exact change only'. Me and dozens others all had the same problem. At Blackfriars I had to encounter a jumped up troll of a woman giving me a fine and then insisted I had to pay her something now even if it was £10 of it, which was a complete lie, and I told her as much. I appealed it and wrote a strongly worded letter complaining about this woman, I had taken her number down. Appeal was of course succesful.
As for looking for inspectors on trains and permit to travel machines, you're having a laugh, last time I saw either of those was a good 10 years ago! All the permit to travel machines were removed from my local stations years ago.
In other news, this sort of thing is going to become more common as the powers that be are making it even more difficult for us to purchase a valid ticket....
Okay, there have always been fare dodgers - which in any language, is theft. These are the people that the train Gestapo are meant to pursue.
Like with the police, increasingly focused in gaining additional revenue from using speed cameras and traffic related offences (rather than dealing with 'real' crime) - there's a great opportunity for the train Gestapo to gain extra revenue through 'fines' by hassling passengers who have every intention to pay, but have been unable to do so through no fault of their own.
I fear this is becoming more prevalent by all businesses - those who are late with a credit card payment or phone bill, get overdrawn for a day at their bank, etc, ........... these penalty 'fines', it makes you wonder how actually legal they are?
Okay, there have always been fare dodgers - which in any language, is theft. These are the people that the train Gestapo are meant to pursue.
Like with the police, increasingly focused in gaining additional revenue from using speed cameras and traffic related offences (rather than dealing with 'real' crime) - there's a great opportunity for the train Gestapo to gain extra revenue through 'fines' by hassling passengers who have every intention to pay, but have been unable to do so through no fault of their own.
I fear this is becoming more prevalent by all businesses - those who are late with a credit card payment or phone bill, get overdrawn for a day at their bank, etc, ........... these penalty 'fines', it makes you wonder how actually legal they are?
Oggy, if you'd had a relative or a close friend (or both) killed by a speeding driver you might just consider speed cameras tackling 'real' crime!
Also, while I'm upsetting people by disagreeing with them, if the only punishment for not having a ticket is to have to pay the face value of one there is no deterrent to not buying one. The "This is the first time I've travelled without a ticket" excuse is almost always a lie. I seriously doubt that the chap that started this thread would have mailed a cheque for his journey to the train company if he'd not been stopped, and I doubt that he intends to do so now so I can't quite agree with the "have every intention to pay" comment. He even said something about doing a runner because money is tight. He only started the thread to ask if we thought he'd get caught. He didn't ask if we thought he should pay for his ticket. If businesses are going to have 'customers' that continue to not pay then they must be allowed to raise as much revenue as possible when they catch them.
This all reminds me of the Charlton fans that attempt to get into games with under age tickets. Not only is it taking money from the organisation, but it is unfair on those that pay full price. As for the argument that the club wouldn't have sold the seat otherwise, and they can't afford full price? If you can't afford it then stay at home!
There needs to be a proper deterrent to breaking the law/rules. Simply allowing people to 'try their luck' and then make them no worse off for it if they get caught will encourage more and more to do it.
KHA ...... My post was principally about train revenue people fining people, even when it hasn't been possible to buy a ticket beforehand. I drew comparison with the police and others, as this appears to be an escalating trend ...... especially as it is a lucrative source of revenue, which not so long ago did not have anywhere near the same prevalence.
I believe that most people would understand my police comparison ......if you've ever been burgled for example, you know it takes an age for any police response and it is often the case that police won't pursue the matter further. Okay wreckless speeding, drunken or dangerous driving kills and maims and nobody is condoning that. But where are the police today when you actually need them?
I finished my post asking whether it is actually legal to issue fines on the spot, implying that the issuing company or representative is both judge and jury - which cannot be the case in any court of law.
Comments
once you never signed nothing they can do -amyone can give an address they need the signature
Yes, that is exactly what you supposed to do.
You are required to make every effort to pay for your travel.
Would you walk into a supermarket, get a barsket full of items, walk up to a till, see its unmanned and think no one is here so i'll just walk out with the shopping? No, you'd walk around until you found a till open. It isn't that hard to find a conductor on the train!
http://www.thesun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/3792109/Brother-and-sister-in-lift-sex.html
Thanks for the offer mate but your safe for now.
Lost for words!
Being that ugly I suppose they find it hard to get lovers
As for clives comment really? I always feel ashamed when I've forgotten my season ticket and have to stand there while they make that call which always takes for ever and get talked down to. And that's someone with a season ticket. Imagine not having one.
I find it funny when inspectors are occasionally at Charlton after work. Amount of people that get caught.
so let me get this right.
if i get on a train without a ticket and the inspectors show up, if i say the ticket machine at the (previous) station wouldn't accept my credit card and i was actively looking for you there's nothing they can do?
;-)
What a great service these people provide. I bet they secretly dream of becoming traffic wardens.
EDIT: Actually, that behaviour was not so much out of character. I once screwed up a receipt and chucked it really hard at a defiantly unhelpful sales assistant's forehead in a hi-fi shop.
Was that you?
My uncle was in hospital for days after that and is still helping the Police with their enquiries.
Mixed messages on this!
A friend just told me to buy a "right to travel" thing for 10p then they cannot fine you.
Anyway, one thing led to another and I chucked the screwed-up receipt at his forehead and left the shop shouting to all the other customers. 'This shop is sh*t! Don't shop here, you'll get stitched up!' Again, very childish of me, but I felt better.
I got home and told my missus, she explained my consumer rights and said she'd take great pleasure in pursuing it further. She then asked where the receipt was, I had to tell her that I'd chucked it at the bloke's head. Needless to say, she walked off shaking her head and repeating incredulously, 'You chucked it at the man's head!'
This is true.
Always carry a 10p and put it in to get the permit to travel. This shows that you made an attempt to pay for your fare. Provided you have this, you can not be fined.
On Southeastern Metro trains from within the area of around Dartford/Sevnoaks boarders the trains do not have conductors/guards and haven't had them since the sliding door trains came into service. Most (if not all) mainline trains do have them.
Some train companies will do anything to catch you out. Others are really helpful. Or perhaps that's just people. Some are kind and some are a***holes.
Here is a tip though. If you are going up to Rochdale or somewhere up north and have a cheap advance ticket you need not just the ticket but also the seat reservation that comes with it - something you'd probably chuck away as a useless and unnecessary bit of tat. If you are on a cheap ticket you need it or they will charge you the full walk up fare which I can assure you is fiendishly expensive. You could buy a six month season ticket for the Valley for less!
Best thing to do, if you think you have a case, refuse to pay them anything because you're not obliged to on the spot (you can pay the fine at your local station at a later date.) and then appeal it. I've had to deal with the train Nazis more than once. First time from New Beckenham, where office was closed and ticket machine was not working. Got to Charing Cross and qued up before gates to buy a ticket from the booth there. I was issued a fine whilst in the que trying to buy a ticket! I was furious. I said you can give me the fine but I'm not giving you a penny. I appealed it no problem.
Second time from Shortlands, again, unmanned ticket office and machine was only accepting 'exact change only'. Me and dozens others all had the same problem. At Blackfriars I had to encounter a jumped up troll of a woman giving me a fine and then insisted I had to pay her something now even if it was £10 of it, which was a complete lie, and I told her as much. I appealed it and wrote a strongly worded letter complaining about this woman, I had taken her number down. Appeal was of course succesful.
As for looking for inspectors on trains and permit to travel machines, you're having a laugh, last time I saw either of those was a good 10 years ago! All the permit to travel machines were removed from my local stations years ago.
In other news, this sort of thing is going to become more common as the powers that be are making it even more difficult for us to purchase a valid ticket....
http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/bromley/9238174.Six_train_stations_in_Bromley_set_to_lose_ticket_offices/
Okay, there have always been fare dodgers - which in any language, is
theft. These are the people that the train Gestapo are meant to pursue.
Like with the police, increasingly focused in gaining additional revenue
from using speed cameras and traffic related offences (rather than dealing with 'real' crime) - there's a great opportunity for the train Gestapo to gain extra revenue through 'fines' by hassling passengers who have every intention to pay, but have been unable to do so through no fault of their own.
I fear this is becoming more prevalent by all businesses - those who are late with a credit card payment or phone bill, get overdrawn for a day at their bank, etc, ........... these penalty 'fines', it makes you wonder how actually legal they are?
I drew comparison with the police and others, as this appears to be an escalating trend ...... especially as it is a lucrative source of revenue, which not so long ago did not have anywhere near the same prevalence.
I believe that most people would understand my police comparison ......if you've ever been burgled for example, you know it takes an age for any police response and it is often the case that police won't pursue the matter further. Okay wreckless speeding, drunken or dangerous driving kills and maims and nobody is condoning that. But where are the police today when you actually need them?
I finished my post asking whether it is actually legal to issue fines on the spot, implying that the issuing company or representative is both judge and jury - which cannot be the case in any court of law.