Thats not always the case, if you are prepared to start at the bottom then you can get in. PwC have internal call centres that need manning, and they don't require graduates! From there you can study while working, or move on internally to other roles like I have.
I work for them Hamer. Do you?
On a training contract there and you can join it straight from school and they pay for all of your exams plus your degree. Joined it in my late twenties but wish id done it at 18 straight from school like it's aimed at. As i said above my mate did it at 18 and come feb will be a qualified accountant and also have a degree in it all paid for without any debt and earning great money at 21.
Not worth it now in my opinion. Teaches you life skills, but career wise it is who you know and not what you know. I wanted to get into advertising and now do something totally unrelated. If you are focused on a career then find a way to get in at the bottom and work your way up, experience means more in todays market.
What with the hike in university fees coming in next year, i was wondering what people thought of whether it is worth it when the 'average' student will be saddled with a debt of around £50k at the end.
i went as a 27 year old so i could get a better paid job and immediately earned 50% more in my first job after completion. with my eldest coming up to the uni stage in a couple of years im wondering whether it is still worth it. im still paying fees back 10 years later (£150 pm), but hers will be 3x what mine were.
is it / was it worth it for you??
I'm curious. You're 37 now but with a child near university age (18). So you were just over 20 when you had a child but went to Uni at 27. How did you manage that?
i was 27 when i started uni, graduated at 30. now 40. my daughter is 15. so 3+ she'll be going to the promised land, lol. i studied social work and it's about the only course with almost 100% employment rate 1 year after qualifying. i was a photographer earning 12k before i went, then earnt 17k after. it's not a job everyone can do/ or wants to do. i love my job and going to uni was the only option as this job requires the professional qualification. i definately didnt chose this job for the money, but i wouldnt do a desk based job for double the money. if i'd have wanted that, i could have gone down that route. i do despair at young people studying anything, for the sake of doing something. i'll support my daughter through uni, but am definately steering her in the direction of a professional qualification.
for those without a clue as to what to study, become a doctor. you get paid whilst you are still training. my mates girlfiend is a fourth year doctor in training and is pulling over 70k. i work with consultants and although it takes 11 years, you can expect 150k plus even in the nhs. go private and you can write your own wage cheques.
Thats not always the case, if you are prepared to start at the bottom then you can get in. PwC have internal call centres that need manning, and they don't require graduates! From there you can study while working, or move on internally to other roles like I have.
I work for them Hamer. Do you?
On a training contract there and you can join it straight from school and they pay for all of your exams plus your degree. Joined it in my late twenties but wish id done it at 18 straight from school like it's aimed at. As i said above my mate did it at 18 and come feb will be a qualified accountant and also have a degree in it all paid for without any debt and earning great money at 21.
That's all well and good but PWC, fine company though they are, can't employ everyone! The vast majority of firms in that bracket have a graduates only policy, your friend is exceptionally fortunate to be in the position he is in.
As others have said, in the current economic climate - which will go on for some time - companies will be able to pick from the cream of the graduate crop.
Ormy they employ a good few hundred non- grads in that position each year mate. Also you can get a foot in the door like Hamer says by getting any job in a firm like that and work from there. I started as an admin temp on a 2 week contract 4 years ago for example after doing a variety of jobs post uni such as labouring, cleaning toilets on building sites and recruitment so there are opportunities out there in these big firms still if you plug away.
But do agree with the jist of what you say and i think its diabolical that so much emphasis is put on having a degree where its not essential to the role.
Hopefully the government and business will re-adjust its position on this in the coming years.
Ormy they employ a good few hundred non- grads in that position each year mate. Also you can get a foot in the door like Hamer says by getting any job in a firm like that and work from there. I started as an admin temp on a 2 week contract 4 years ago for example after doing a variety of jobs post uni such as labouring, cleaning toilets on building sites and recruitment so there are opportunities out there in these big firms still if you plug away.
But do agree with the jist of what you say and i think its diabolical that so much emphasis is put on having a degree where its not essential to the role.
Hopefully the government and business will re-adjust its position on this in the coming years.
Thanks for the response, it just goes to show that there are companies out there "bucking the trend" and employing non-Graduates, and in relatively large numbers too.
I would be fascinated to get the PWC thinking on this as to why they do this and the benefits they believe it brings, very interesting stuff from a company that an outsider like myself would presume would only take on board the Oxbridge lot in the same way that McKinsey and others do.
Thanks again, another demonstration of the power of CL in sharing the knowledge.
Mate no probs. I was suprised myself as i thought it was gonna be a load of hooray henry's and tim nice but dims and whilst there is a miniscule element of that the vast majority of people there are sound as a pound and very down to earth.
I would be fascinated to get the PWC thinking on this as to why they do this and the benefits they believe it brings, very interesting stuff from a company that an outsider like myself would presume would only take on board the Oxbridge lot in the same way that McKinsey and others do.
No idea, but it could be to attract graduate calibre people who don't want to study for three/four years and get £50k in debt when they could work for a decent company, get first class training and get paid as well.
The thing is they won't be hiring school leavers with poor qualifications, but A level students with several A grades to their name.
In the same boat myself, already have a bachelor degree in business management which was worth jack shit in all honesty (grand for like assistant manager/weekend manager type jobs) but nothing that couldn't be earned through a few years working up. Got offered a place today in game development, would love to do it but am worried that i'll accept it and end up being totally out of my depth at the programming and maths aspects of it. The degree kinda depends on the job really, If you wanan go into a specialized skill sector then of course you will need a degree but in my case, I spent 3 years studying, I learnt more in a year working in retail that the 3 years studying.
I worked for the PW part of PwC many years ago. What used to be called the auditing side of their business is built on the basis of charging clients high fees for carrying out a statutory audit, but by using "cheap labour" in the form of, mainly, university graduates. The "carrot" for the graduates is the ACA qualification. It's bloody hard work, but opens up a lot of opportunities worldwide. (Part of the reason why I'm in Vienna). All the, so-called, Big Four pay for the training and exam fees, so it's not a bad deal.
There are two ways of looking at why they are taking on more school leavers now, and are also offering combined degree/ACA programmes. PwC would say that they are afraid that they will lose out on talented people because they might be scared away from university by the fees. A cynic might say that they are looking for even cheaper labour, which means higher profits for the partners to share amongst themselves. In addition, all accounting firms have high staff turnover rates. They recruit large numbers of trainees each year because so many leave once they get the ACA qualification. Part of the idea behind the school leaver programme might be along the lines of "catch them young, and turn them into the "PwC man/woman", who is more likely to stay, thus reducing hiring costs. The school leaver program also means four years of cheap labour, while the graduate programme means only three. All kinds of good reasons!
All the Big Four firms work in a similar way, and pay similar starting salaries. My son qualified at KPMG. They are not worried about which university an applicant went to, but they require a 2:1 degree. They filter on the basis of A level results. I think they ask for ABB/AAB, something like that, so you have to be pretty good to get in, and the number of universities that ask for those grades is limited. The school leaver programmes work with similar grades, I think.
I worked for the PW part of PwC many years ago. What used to be called the auditing side of their business is built on the basis of charging clients high fees for carrying out a statutory audit, but by using "cheap labour" in the form of, mainly, university graduates. The "carrot" for the graduates is the ACA qualification. It's bloody hard work, but opens up a lot of opportunities worldwide. (Part of the reason why I'm in Vienna). All the, so-called, Big Four pay for the training and exam fees, so it's not a bad deal.
There are two ways of looking at why they are taking on more school leavers now, and are also offering combined degree/ACA programmes. PwC would say that they are afraid that they will lose out on talented people because they might be scared away from university by the fees. A cynic might say that they are looking for even cheaper labour, which means higher profits for the partners to share amongst themselves. In addition, all accounting firms have high staff turnover rates. They recruit large numbers of trainees each year because so many leave once they get the ACA qualification. Part of the idea behind the school leaver programme might be along the lines of "catch them young, and turn them into the "PwC man/woman", who is more likely to stay, thus reducing hiring costs. The school leaver program also means four years of cheap labour, while the graduate programme means only three. All kinds of good reasons!
All the Big Four firms work in a similar way, and pay similar starting salaries. My son qualified at KPMG. They are not worried about which university an applicant went to, but they require a 2:1 degree. They filter on the basis of A level results. I think they ask for ABB/AAB, something like that, so you have to be pretty good to get in, and the number of universities that ask for those grades is limited. The school leaver programmes work with similar grades, I think.
Thats not always the case, if you are prepared to start at the bottom then you can get in. PwC have internal call centres that need manning, and they don't require graduates! From there you can study while working, or move on internally to other roles like I have.
I work for them Hamer. Do you?
On a training contract there and you can join it straight from school and they pay for all of your exams plus your degree. Joined it in my late twenties but wish id done it at 18 straight from school like it's aimed at. As i said above my mate did it at 18 and come feb will be a qualified accountant and also have a degree in it all paid for without any debt and earning great money at 21.
Yeah I work at More London, been at PwC for 3 years now!
Left school at 16 (1980) straight into a print apprenticeship (Compositor), day release at LCP, finished in 1984 with 3 good City and Guilds , still in more or less same profession, it has evolved into Mac design, project management. The apprenticeship gave me the tools to do my job and LCP the education to carry it through to where I am now. Its nice to see apprenticeships coming back. RE the leaving home bit, I left home at 21 moved into a flat at Hither Green with two of the members of the band I was in, (Kev Portch, Goodbye Horse was one), partied for about 3 years, got it out my system, and didn't have tons of debt, happy days. BTW, because I am a qualified Gentleman Compositor I am allowed to carry a sword within the City of London. I might try that on a saturday night soon. Will let you know how I get on. You dont get that when you go to Oxbridge )
Gentleman Compositor...... What part of the NGA fleet street gang cooked that one up Greenie?
When I was on the FT in the 80s, they seemed intent on complete opposition to new technology.
I remember the art director at the FT hiding his mac away each night, in case word got out.
Poor compositors took a right bashing in the late 70s, the industry dissapeared virtually in a couple of years at least in newspaper and magazine publishing.
Cast off, and run rounds? dog legs and overmatter?
I was a dual member of the NGA and NUJ as I had to work on the stone in the composing room at Bracken house, and they insisted they would only talk to a designer that was in the union. i still have my NGA green card to this day.
People forget how bitter the union's became on fleet street, and the Times and Time Out were 2 magazines that had considerable industrial action. My old publisher at IPC Jane Reed went to work for Eddie Shah,she did not use myself and my fellow design partner as he advised Marxism today, in 1982/3.
Ken, Without getting into the unions debate too far. Yes they did accumulate too much power but ultimately they protected jobs and workers, that is what they were for. When I went to the 'Socshop' (NGA) for a new position in another union company I was the only one interviewed, my interview was with the FOC first and then the manager of the department/company. This worked well, the company get an employee that they knew could do the job, and us workers got good pay and conditions (which almost all workers whether union or non union benefit from today). I cant tell you the amount of alledged print designers who do not have a clue, they have been to college but appear to have learnt nothing. Thatch and her cronies tried to destroy the unions and more importantly apprenticeships back in the day, I'm please the apprenticeships are making a comeback. I dont believe we need Unions with the power they used to have. My Dad was NGA FOC on The Standard for 20 odd years, yes some, and only some earned silly money, but have you ever seen those guys churn out type on a Linotype machine, incredible. The old man was involved in his FOC capacity with Shah and Murdock at News Int when they sacked the unions and employed electricians amongst others. Still got my union number. Ultimately I am proud and I guess lucky to have been offered an apprenticeship, it has served me well for 31 years.
I did something truly challenging. I left Western New York (near Toronto, basically if you go south into New York State, you'll run straight into my hometown) and decided to get my MA in South London. I have a four-year bachelor's degree in communications, but that had gotten me nowhere as I was working at a cinema and a retail store making a combined $13k (8k pounds) per year. So going to London at the age of 30 to get my MA in journalism sounded like a great idea as it beat the alternative, debt be damned.
Working my head around the differences in US/UK media was far tougher than expected, but I made a bunch of contacts, had the time of my life (got published, attended a film festival, frequented the Valley and even did a story on Paddy Powell) and got the degree. It's almost a year on, I'm back home in New York state and working at a job that pays about $35k (22k) a year. Yeah, the debt is massive ($90k), but it's just all part of college sadly. (My work experience beforehand was such that I couldn't afford to pay off very much of my undergrad loans. Now, at the very least, I can.)
So if you know what you want to do, GO. At least here in the US, you'll hit a ceiling where not having the degree will set you back. It sounded very much like Britain is the same from my classmates and friends.
Comments
I work for them Hamer. Do you?
On a training contract there and you can join it straight from school and they pay for all of your exams plus your degree. Joined it in my late twenties but wish id done it at 18 straight from school like it's aimed at. As i said above my mate did it at 18 and come feb will be a qualified accountant and also have a degree in it all paid for without any debt and earning great money at 21.
for those without a clue as to what to study, become a doctor. you get paid whilst you are still training. my mates girlfiend is a fourth year doctor in training and is pulling over 70k. i work with consultants and although it takes 11 years, you can expect 150k plus even in the nhs. go private and you can write your own wage cheques.
That's all well and good but PWC, fine company though they are, can't employ everyone! The vast majority of firms in that bracket have a graduates only policy, your friend is exceptionally fortunate to be in the position he is in.
As others have said, in the current economic climate - which will go on for some time - companies will be able to pick from the cream of the graduate crop.
Ormy they employ a good few hundred non- grads in that position each year mate. Also you can get a foot in the door like Hamer says by getting any job in a firm like that and work from there. I started as an admin temp on a 2 week contract 4 years ago for example after doing a variety of jobs post uni such as labouring, cleaning toilets on building sites and recruitment so there are opportunities out there in these big firms still if you plug away.
But do agree with the jist of what you say and i think its diabolical that so much emphasis is put on having a degree where its not essential to the role.
Hopefully the government and business will re-adjust its position on this in the coming years.
Thanks for the response, it just goes to show that there are companies out there "bucking the trend" and employing non-Graduates, and in relatively large numbers too.
I would be fascinated to get the PWC thinking on this as to why they do this and the benefits they believe it brings, very interesting stuff from a company that an outsider like myself would presume would only take on board the Oxbridge lot in the same way that McKinsey and others do.
Thanks again, another demonstration of the power of CL in sharing the knowledge.
Mate no probs. I was suprised myself as i thought it was gonna be a load of hooray henry's and tim nice but dims and whilst there is a miniscule element of that the vast majority of people there are sound as a pound and very down to earth.
No idea, but it could be to attract graduate calibre people who don't want to study for three/four years and get £50k in debt when they could work for a decent company, get first class training and get paid as well.
The thing is they won't be hiring school leavers with poor qualifications, but A level students with several A grades to their name.
I worked for the PW part of PwC many years ago. What used to be called the auditing side of their business is built on the basis of charging clients high fees for carrying out a statutory audit, but by using "cheap labour" in the form of, mainly, university graduates. The "carrot" for the graduates is the ACA qualification. It's bloody hard work, but opens up a lot of opportunities worldwide. (Part of the reason why I'm in Vienna). All the, so-called, Big Four pay for the training and exam fees, so it's not a bad deal.
There are two ways of looking at why they are taking on more school leavers now, and are also offering combined degree/ACA programmes. PwC would say that they are afraid that they will lose out on talented people because they might be scared away from university by the fees. A cynic might say that they are looking for even cheaper labour, which means higher profits for the partners to share amongst themselves. In addition, all accounting firms have high staff turnover rates. They recruit large numbers of trainees each year because so many leave once they get the ACA qualification. Part of the idea behind the school leaver programme might be along the lines of "catch them young, and turn them into the "PwC man/woman", who is more likely to stay, thus reducing hiring costs. The school leaver program also means four years of cheap labour, while the graduate programme means only three. All kinds of good reasons!
All the Big Four firms work in a similar way, and pay similar starting salaries. My son qualified at KPMG. They are not worried about which university an applicant went to, but they require a 2:1 degree. They filter on the basis of A level results. I think they ask for ABB/AAB, something like that, so you have to be pretty good to get in, and the number of universities that ask for those grades is limited. The school leaver programmes work with similar grades, I think.
BTW, because I am a qualified Gentleman Compositor I am allowed to carry a sword within the City of London. I might try that on a saturday night soon. Will let you know how I get on. You dont get that when you go to Oxbridge
Without getting into the unions debate too far. Yes they did accumulate too much power but ultimately they protected jobs and workers, that is what they were for. When I went to the 'Socshop' (NGA) for a new position in another union company I was the only one interviewed, my interview was with the FOC first and then the manager of the department/company. This worked well, the company get an employee that they knew could do the job, and us workers got good pay and conditions (which almost all workers whether union or non union benefit from today). I cant tell you the amount of alledged print designers who do not have a clue, they have been to college but appear to have learnt nothing. Thatch and her cronies tried to destroy the unions and more importantly apprenticeships back in the day, I'm please the apprenticeships are making a comeback. I dont believe we need Unions with the power they used to have. My Dad was NGA FOC on The Standard for 20 odd years, yes some, and only some earned silly money, but have you ever seen those guys churn out type on a Linotype machine, incredible. The old man was involved in his FOC capacity with Shah and Murdock at News Int when they sacked the unions and employed electricians amongst others.
Still got my union number. Ultimately I am proud and I guess lucky to have been offered an apprenticeship, it has served me well for 31 years.