Now that Robbie's gone even more reason to use a goalscoring forward instead of a keeper on the bench. Some keepers are injury prone whereas others like Brad Friedel never miss a game.
In any event, statistically, how many times has a sub keeper been used and made a difference to the result as against a forward coming on and scoring/creating a goal? The alternative is the current situation of keeper, full back, centre back, winger and utility central midfielder/forward.
Blimey, people are talking as if 7-subs is the long standing natural order of things. It's only in the last couple of years that it was upped from 5 to 7. For me this was a bad move. Call me old fashioned but I preferred it when football was about a team of 11 players rather than a bench full of alternatives and swapsies. I liked it when subs were there only for emergencies, when there was a gamble whether to have a keeper on the bench or not, when they weren't brought on just to waste time at the end of a game. I think we should revert to just 2 or 3 subs.
22 matches played in Leagues 1 & 2. Can't provide assists from subs but these were the goalscorers:
Luscombe (scored 89th min) came on in 83rd minute in 2-0 win for Hartlepool Montano (scored 86th min) came on in 75th min in 3-1 win for Notts County Gillespie (scored 74th min) came on in 61st min in 1-1 draw for Colchester Tonne (scored 84th min) came on in 81st min in 4-0 win for Sheff Utd Jolley (scored 90th min) came on in 46th min in 3-2 win for AFC Wimbledon Morsy (scored 84th min) came on in 71st min for Port Vale in above game Winnall (scored 85th min) came on in 67th min in 1-0 win for Hereford Hannah (scored 90th min) came on in 70 th min in 1-1 draw for Bradford Connell (scored in 69th & 81st mins) came on in 68th min in 3-2 for Swindon
So that's 10 goals scored by subs in 22 matches and not one keeper taken off. How many more goals would have been scored and created had the 5th sub been an attacking player instead of a keeper or in our case a Benson instead of a Sullivan. Surely it's worth the gamble isn't it?
22 matches played in Leagues 1 & 2. Can't provide assists from subs but these were the goalscorers:
Luscombe (scored 89th min) came on in 83rd minute in 2-0 win for Hartlepool Montano (scored 86th min) came on in 75th min in 3-1 win for Notts County Gillespie (scored 74th min) came on in 61st min in 1-1 draw for Colchester Tonne (scored 84th min) came on in 81st min in 4-0 win for Sheff Utd Jolley (scored 90th min) came on in 46th min in 3-2 win for AFC Wimbledon Morsy (scored 84th min) came on in 71st min for Port Vale in above game Winnall (scored 85th min) came on in 67th min in 1-0 win for Hereford Hannah (scored 90th min) came on in 70 th min in 1-1 draw for Bradford Connell (scored in 69th & 81st mins) came on in 68th min in 3-2 for Swindon
So that's 10 goals scored by subs in 22 matches and not one keeper taken off. How many more goals would have been scored and created had the 5th sub been an attacking player instead of a keeper or in our case a Benson instead of a Sullivan. Surely it's worth the gamble isn't it?
I know what your saying , but the one time it does happen to us , you can bet your bottom dollar people would slaughter CP and question why he didn't have a spare keeper on the bench.
22 matches played in Leagues 1 & 2. Can't provide assists from subs but these were the goalscorers:
Luscombe (scored 89th min) came on in 83rd minute in 2-0 win for Hartlepool Montano (scored 86th min) came on in 75th min in 3-1 win for Notts County Gillespie (scored 74th min) came on in 61st min in 1-1 draw for Colchester Tonne (scored 84th min) came on in 81st min in 4-0 win for Sheff Utd Jolley (scored 90th min) came on in 46th min in 3-2 win for AFC Wimbledon Morsy (scored 84th min) came on in 71st min for Port Vale in above game Winnall (scored 85th min) came on in 67th min in 1-0 win for Hereford Hannah (scored 90th min) came on in 70 th min in 1-1 draw for Bradford Connell (scored in 69th & 81st mins) came on in 68th min in 3-2 for Swindon
So that's 10 goals scored by subs in 22 matches and not one keeper taken off. How many more goals would have been scored and created had the 5th sub been an attacking player instead of a keeper or in our case a Benson instead of a Sullivan. Surely it's worth the gamble isn't it?
With Morrison scoring that's 11 goals by subs in 23 games and no injured keeper i.e. half a season.
And we have no "striker" on our bench but try and use a player who offers a bit of this and a bit of that by way of a compromise.
Luscombe (scored 89th min) came on in 83rd minute in 2-0 win for Hartlepool Montano (scored 86th min) came on in 75th min in 3-1 win for Notts County Gillespie (scored 74th min) came on in 61st min in 1-1 draw for Colchester Tonne (scored 84th min) came on in 81st min in 4-0 win for Sheff Utd Jolley (scored 90th min) came on in 46th min in 3-2 win for AFC Wimbledon Morsy (scored 84th min) came on in 71st min for Port Vale in above game Winnall (scored 85th min) came on in 67th min in 1-0 win for Hereford Hannah (scored 90th min) came on in 70 th min in 1-1 draw for Bradford Connell (scored in 69th & 81st mins) came on in 68th min in 3-2 for Swindon
How large a squads do these teams have?
Personally I don't think it matters how many but who is on the bench
You can only use 3 so 4 subs should be plenty if you need to include a keeper
Luscombe (scored 89th min) came on in 83rd minute in 2-0 win for Hartlepool Montano (scored 86th min) came on in 75th min in 3-1 win for Notts County Gillespie (scored 74th min) came on in 61st min in 1-1 draw for Colchester Tonne (scored 84th min) came on in 81st min in 4-0 win for Sheff Utd Jolley (scored 90th min) came on in 46th min in 3-2 win for AFC Wimbledon Morsy (scored 84th min) came on in 71st min for Port Vale in above game Winnall (scored 85th min) came on in 67th min in 1-0 win for Hereford Hannah (scored 90th min) came on in 70 th min in 1-1 draw for Bradford Connell (scored in 69th & 81st mins) came on in 68th min in 3-2 for Swindon
How large a squads do these teams have?
Personally I don't think it matters how many but who is on the bench
You can only use 3 so 4 subs should be plenty if you need to include a keeper
By beating Reading with a "reserve" team we have already shown that we have strength in depth. If you have a keeper, FB and CB on the bench that limits the options as demonstrated last night.
Over the course of a season a team's keeper might get injured once. A lot of the time when that happens the keeper is carrying an injury anyway (or you have someone like Robbie in the team) so you do need to cater for that. On the other hand, someone like Brad Friedel goes SIX seasons without missing a minute of football. Are we really saying that had Blackburn, Villa, Spurs been limited to five subs and used a forward instead of a keeper those teams wouldn't have been better off?
Last night Sheff Wed had Lowe and Morrison on the bench. Had they had just one forward Morrison wouldn't have been there to score. They also had a midfielder on the bench so sacrificed a defender. But how much more likely is a defender to get injured than a keeper?
The facts speak for themselves and everyone though Warnock was mad when he never used to have a sub keeper but it worked. And if the keeper does get injured it doesn't mean that you are sure to concede. After all, how many saves did either keeper have to make last night?
This new ruling has really affected us unfortunately.
With only 5 subs available (and therefore 4 outfield) we are left having to pick utility players as opposed to specialists like Evina (albeit he can play in 2 positions)
That's why I was rather uninspired with our bench last night
I think it goes down to a vote. Pretty sure despite all the negative comments, the majority of clubs voted for the 5-sub rule - hence it was brought in.
With regards to the argument above about not putting a keeper on the bench. Taylor spent all the early part of his career as a keeper, so we should be able to cope better than most without a sub keeper on the bench if he's in the team.
I hope they do. I don't get this whole nonsense of 'we can't fill a bench' or that they'll get fined for not doing so.
At the end of the day, as long as a club can field 11 players at the start of a match of which one is a goalkeeper, then what is the problem? Subs are not enforced, and as long as there are 7 or more players on the pitch for one side then the match can continue.
Putting it to the vote is all well and good but how about counting each divisions vote seperately? Can't imagine too many championship clubs wanting this.
And maybe as an alternative, add a condition that 2 of the 7 have to be under the age of 21 to encourage teams to give developing players a chance? (not my idea, someone mentioned this before but I'm happy to take the plaudits, lol).
I think they also need to look at the JPT rule where you have a certain amount of players that are playing in the league, as well as the fact that the League clubs are using 5 in the league but 7 in the FA and Carling Cups. Continuity?
believe it was as much the Championship clubs that voted for it as anyone. Doesn't seem that many Chairmen actually asked their manager's opinion though as I am sure the outcome would have been different if they had.
Can't remember if I mentioned it on here but I'd like to see 7 subs with 2 being u21 as @tangoflash said. In those games we were winning comfortably it would have been good to give players like Smith 15/20 minutes. It's going to be so hard for our young players to break through with Powell (understandably) having a big senior squad.
Travel not counted, as will likely travel by coach at one whole cost. Flying for Championship and below rare. Half the games they will travel on the day, so no additional costs there. If Hotel required max £100 for shared room, plus lunch £10 a head - lets say no more than £150 for 2 extra subs in general....plus a £1 each for sweets after the game. There's obviosuly more to it than the above, but I'm not in the know
If i waes a manager/chairmen i'd think of having extra subs as a good thing, its less likely then that your not paying someone obscene amounts of money a week and they barely get a showing then!!
Rather than open another thread , thought i'd reopen this one , sorry if i've dropped a CL clanger , and broken protocol.
I wanted to ask Chris Powell whether this got voted on season by season , but ran out of time @ Bromley Addicks , and whether there was any chance of it changing next season back to 7 subs , does anyone know?
Powell did say at the VIP event last week at the Valley that he expected seven subs to return next season and there might be a U21 stipulation with it .
Powell did say at the VIP event last week at the Valley that he expected seven subs to return next season and there might be a U21 stipulation with it .
Don't like it myself, gives teams even more chances to waste time and break up the game late on if they are ahead. Personally I wouldn't allow subs in the last five mins but I can't see that happening.
Comments
In any event, statistically, how many times has a sub keeper been used and made a difference to the result as against a forward coming on and scoring/creating a goal? The alternative is the current situation of keeper, full back, centre back, winger and utility central midfielder/forward.
Luscombe (scored 89th min) came on in 83rd minute in 2-0 win for Hartlepool
Montano (scored 86th min) came on in 75th min in 3-1 win for Notts County
Gillespie (scored 74th min) came on in 61st min in 1-1 draw for Colchester
Tonne (scored 84th min) came on in 81st min in 4-0 win for Sheff Utd
Jolley (scored 90th min) came on in 46th min in 3-2 win for AFC Wimbledon
Morsy (scored 84th min) came on in 71st min for Port Vale in above game
Winnall (scored 85th min) came on in 67th min in 1-0 win for Hereford
Hannah (scored 90th min) came on in 70 th min in 1-1 draw for Bradford
Connell (scored in 69th & 81st mins) came on in 68th min in 3-2 for Swindon
So that's 10 goals scored by subs in 22 matches and not one keeper taken off. How many more goals would have been scored and created had the 5th sub been an attacking player instead of a keeper or in our case a Benson instead of a Sullivan. Surely it's worth the gamble isn't it?
Neil Warnock used to do it at Sheffield United and regularly sent on three forwards. It didn't stop them going up.
And we have no "striker" on our bench but try and use a player who offers a bit of this and a bit of that by way of a compromise.
Montano (scored 86th min) came on in 75th min in 3-1 win for Notts County
Gillespie (scored 74th min) came on in 61st min in 1-1 draw for Colchester
Tonne (scored 84th min) came on in 81st min in 4-0 win for Sheff Utd
Jolley (scored 90th min) came on in 46th min in 3-2 win for AFC Wimbledon
Morsy (scored 84th min) came on in 71st min for Port Vale in above game
Winnall (scored 85th min) came on in 67th min in 1-0 win for Hereford
Hannah (scored 90th min) came on in 70 th min in 1-1 draw for Bradford
Connell (scored in 69th & 81st mins) came on in 68th min in 3-2 for Swindon
Over the course of a season a team's keeper might get injured once. A lot of the time when that happens the keeper is carrying an injury anyway (or you have someone like Robbie in the team) so you do need to cater for that. On the other hand, someone like Brad Friedel goes SIX seasons without missing a minute of football. Are we really saying that had Blackburn, Villa, Spurs been limited to five subs and used a forward instead of a keeper those teams wouldn't have been better off?
Last night Sheff Wed had Lowe and Morrison on the bench. Had they had just one forward Morrison wouldn't have been there to score. They also had a midfielder on the bench so sacrificed a defender. But how much more likely is a defender to get injured than a keeper?
The facts speak for themselves and everyone though Warnock was mad when he never used to have a sub keeper but it worked. And if the keeper does get injured it doesn't mean that you are sure to concede. After all, how many saves did either keeper have to make last night?
With only 5 subs available (and therefore 4 outfield) we are left having to pick utility players as opposed to specialists like Evina (albeit he can play in 2 positions)
That's why I was rather uninspired with our bench last night
Does it really matter - CP only used 1 last night !!!!!!!!!!
Not heard one manager say anything positive about it...............
With regards to the argument above about not putting a keeper on the bench. Taylor spent all the early part of his career as a keeper, so we should be able to cope better than most without a sub keeper on the bench if he's in the team.
At the end of the day, as long as a club can field 11 players at the start of a match of which one is a goalkeeper, then what is the problem? Subs are not enforced, and as long as there are 7 or more players on the pitch for one side then the match can continue.
And maybe as an alternative, add a condition that 2 of the 7 have to be under the age of 21 to encourage teams to give developing players a chance? (not my idea, someone mentioned this before but I'm happy to take the plaudits, lol).
Superb idea
There's obviosuly more to it than the above, but I'm not in the know
I wanted to ask Chris Powell whether this got voted on season by season , but ran out of time @ Bromley Addicks , and whether there was any chance of it changing next season back to 7 subs , does anyone know?
That would be good.