Ormston please expalin how its not discriminating against the English re devolution ? Please explain the Midlothian question ? how is it right that MPs from devolved parliaments can also vote on "English issues" ?
English students in Scottish UNis have to pay fees whist Scotish students dont ?
You use race "white , black, asian" we are talking about the peoples of England here.Using your style how many "black, asian, purple,etc" faces are in the Scotiish /Welsh and NI assemblies?
How starnge it is to see any form of standing up for the "english people" argued against so very very hard------------ usually by the left yet they are on their chairs -- feet and te streets when they think there is any other "discrimination".Yet it isnt happening to the English -------------- cant be-------------- i mean they are English------ discrimination dosnt happen to them-----------------------what a joke.
The fact that Labours mass imigartion hit England the hardest and the lower wage scale the hardest of all should be a huge issue to the "left" yet they cant say anything -- why ? because its the people of England who are geting hit and its their darling Labour party who allowed it to happpen.
It the Labour Party wont stand up for England
The Tories sold us out under Thatcher
The Liberals --ha ha please
The BNP ( clue is the first word British)
then who ?
saying its all a myth and ignoring it is just a cop out and leeds to ongoing resentment.
As I was walking down towards the ground last night, I saw these being handed out (though at first glance just thought it was a random leaflet / flyer). I had been looking forward to the game for ages, as I was taking my 3 year old boy for the first time.
You know what little kids are like - he said "Daddy, can I get a picture card?" Thought he was gonna end up with a kebab shop flyer and as we walked past, the guy held out his hand and then drew back sharply. He just said "Not for you fella".
It wasn't until the guy behind me asked if I was ok, that I realised what was being handed out. I am a quarter Japanese and so have a slight tan.
I was utterly mortified. Luckily, my boy is too young to understand what was going on.
that they were handing out leaflets at The Valley last night is truely shocking. Above all others, our club should be standing up to them and shouting No as loud as possible. We are THE family club. We are THE inventors of kick racism out of football. We are THE last team that these people should be targeting.
And (hopefully) so say all of us.
What exactly can the club do about it though? This happened some distance from the ground so surely anything the club say on the matter will be met with a 'mind your own business' ?
Most Muslims I know and I live in a multi racial area in East London are good , honest and honourable people who hate extremism within their own community in the way I hate the EDL and all it stands for.
GH, you are priceless. Most/all the people in the EDL couldn't spell mid-lothian let alone explain what it was. So what you are saying is that it's the Scots that are the problem and that the EDL should be attacking them?
They just want someone to hate. For now it's the Muslim's but as DamoNorthstand's experience shows they just lump anyone with a darker skin together.
Damo, sorry you had to experience that anywhere but especially at Charlton. I walked past the runt outside the Kebab shop but he didn't hand me anything. I'm white so not sure why he didn't try to pass a leaflet to me. maybe it was because I was walking upright and wasn't dragging my knuckles on the ground.
As for people saying its hogwash that the English get the same say as the rest of the UK that is total and utter cr*p. They cant and wont answer the Midlothian question because its totaly unfare to the English.
They wont answer when even Red Eds own speach writer says Labour was hostile to the ENGLISH working class. If Labour was nostile to a minority these same people who are saying that its all a myth would be the first on the streets.-------------------------you are a total joke.
Gooner are you aware that there was a referendum on English devloution and the northeners so said so strongly that no one else was asked.
Also Scottish MPs are restricted in the debates they can vote on. What about the poor Northern Irish who vote for their MP only for them not to take up their seat?
The world isn't perfect, but its more perfect for the English than it is for a good number of people.
Stu I diodn't say the club shoul ddeal with it. I said WE should. We are alsways talking about how its not the players, owners, managers club but its our club. Therefore its our problem to deal with.
If they turn up in numbers to hand out leaflets, we tuen up in number to tel them where to stick their leaflets.
Fans doing nothing is not what has got our club to where it is today.
Henry im not saying anyone should be attacked and im not defending the EDL either. Im saying ignoring and issue and saying it isnt there leeds to extremism.
Personally I think the sheer amount of leaflets dumped on the floor sends a message to these people, beyond that any confrontation will just give them the reaction and attention they are seeking, imo.
My experience of people with GH's views on the Union are similar as Spiritof1947 states above , so an English Parliament is a non starter.
In terms of the British Parliament Scotland is also getting less seats in the next Parliament and there will be certain legislation that they cannot vote on .
Much of the function carried out by the Scottish Parliament apart from Tax raising is carried out in our Region by the Mayor and the Greater London Assembly as is said above the North of England voted against a Regional Assembly.
I'm all for dissolution of the union (and to be honest, while we're at it, lets declare London and the home counties a separate state - I've always considered my first loyalty to be to London, and then to England second). Don't think it will happen for a long time (if ever). And I don't think it has anything to do with the EDL or similar extremist groups. As plenty of people have pointed out, they are just racists looking for a "legitimate" way to vent their anger at the world and their lives not turning out how they might have wanted.
I agree with DRF that I don't want leaflets like that handed out around Charlton, but doing something about it requires a degree of organisation.
Given the fascist state we all live in, I'm surprised the old bill wern't there to nick anyone who dared to "drop" their informative literature on the ground.
I did see them but was on the opposite side of the road and didn't know who they were.
Didn't this happen 70 odd years ago in Germany? The powers that be sitting in ivory towers ignoring the majority of the population and their woes? The disenfranchised becoming restless and a far right wing group picking up the mantle, finding a scapegoat to blame all the country's ills on, which suited the government until it was too late...
Henry im not saying anyone should be attacked and im not defending the EDL either. Im saying ignoring and issue and saying it isnt there leeds to extremism.
As does inflating that problem out of all proportion and blaming it on the Irish/Jews/Blacks/Asians/Eastern Europeans/Muslims.
You say you're not defending the EDL which is good. I wish you would condemn them as the racist front organisation that your know they are.
What I detest about the EDL are their weasel words. We know what they are about there's no doubting that they played a role in the Norwegian tragedy by irresponsibly hyping up a problem. By all means articulate your cause but do with reason and a little intellectual rigour, otherwise you are merely using the rhetoric of hate, and that can cut both ways. Next time some socially maladjuted thug is heard voicing vague threats he might just get awken at dawn to see a squad of policemen standing over him because they daren't take any threat from these people with anything other than 100% seriousness. Maybe the finger trigger on one of those policemen will slip.
Some people will claim that they are merely indulging in free speech and that their views should be heard, that misses the point. when it's used to incite violence and causes death then it's an irresponsible use of power.
GH, There's a slight mistake in your post; it's the West Lothian Question, as proposed by Tam Dalyell. You might be slightly confused over its impact; members of devolved parliaments can't vote on English issues, though MPs to Westminster from those regions can. Essentially the question is: Why do the Scots, Welsh and North Irish all have their own parliaments/assemblies AND seats in Westminster while the English only have seats in Westminster? (Dalyell illustrated his point by pointing out how he, as an MP to Westminster, could vote on certain issues in Blackburn, Lancashire but could not on the same certain issues in Blackburn, West Lothian - his own constituency.) I agree, however, that devolution is somewhat unfair on the English.
Northern Ireland cannot really be considered in the same light as the Welsh and Scottish assemblies as Stormont was constructed given the historical context of the Troubles (I saw a reference to the NI Assembly earlier I believe). Scotland is also different, as its economy is heavily based on agriculture and fishing, with a separate assembly actually leading to certain issues being handled better in Scotland - the prime example being Foot and Mouth.
Overall, devolution is necessary given how each Home Nation is different in terms of resources/internal economy etc. And you must remember that devolved Parliaments only exist because Westminster allows them to exist.
Henry im not saying anyone should be attacked and im not defending the EDL either. Im saying ignoring and issue and saying it isnt there leeds to extremism.
As does inflating that problem out of all proportion and blaming it on the Irish/Jews/Blacks/Asians/Eastern Europeans/Muslims.
You say you're not defending the EDL which is good. I wish you would condemn them as the racist front organisation that your know they are.
Henry can you also tell me what I should be doing its all very confusing, shall I go for a Chinese for lunch or a sandwich from Tesco's, what would we all do without someone like you to tell us how to think hey.
Agree BFR, and hatred is not an acceptable form of discourse anywhere in the world. The diificulty however remains that there is an underclass of people with poor to non-existenrt educational attainment, zilch levels of expectation of any kind, just a grinding day to day rather hopeless existence. They have no voice (unless they riot etc), no power of any kind and we, the chattering classes (of all political hues) , have allowed this to develop and continue. It's small wonder that they are targets for the EDL. That rather upsets me as well, both for the waste of humanity and for the social problems created.
Henry im not saying anyone should be attacked and im not defending the EDL either. Im saying ignoring and issue and saying it isnt there leeds to extremism.
As does inflating that problem out of all proportion and blaming it on the Irish/Jews/Blacks/Asians/Eastern Europeans/Muslims.
You say you're not defending the EDL which is good. I wish you would condemn them as the racist front organisation that your know they are.
Henry can you also tell me what I should be doing its all very confusing, shall I go for a Chinese for lunch or a sandwich from Tesco's, what would we all do without someone like you to tell us how to think hey.
Oh sarcasm and misplaced sarcasm at that
Where have I told you or anyone how to think? No I didn't in any way tell anyone how to think.
So a pretty pointless input to the debate really from you.
As I was walking down towards the ground last night, I saw these being handed out (though at first glance just thought it was a random leaflet / flyer). I had been looking forward to the game for ages, as I was taking my 3 year old boy for the first time.
You know what little kids are like - he said "Daddy, can I get a picture card?" Thought he was gonna end up with a kebab shop flyer and as we walked past, the guy held out his hand and then drew back sharply. He just said "Not for you fella".
It wasn't until the guy behind me asked if I was ok, that I realised what was being handed out. I am a quarter Japanese and so have a slight tan.
I was utterly mortified. Luckily, my boy is too young to understand what was going on.
I am so unhappy to hear that. I am how ever happy that the guy behind you stepped up (in a way) if that had been me and my family (I have a olive colour to my skin in the summer months, not bad seeing as I am half Scot, half Irish) I would have gone to the nearest Police officer and made a whole lot of fuss.
Henry can you also tell me what I should be doing its all very confusing, shall I go for a Chinese for lunch or a sandwich from Tesco's, what would we all do without someone like you to tell us how to think hey.
I'd go for the Chinese. Sandwiches from Tesco's can be pretty dry.
Agree BFR, and hatred is not an acceptable form of discourse anywhere in the world. The diificulty however remains that there is an underclass of people with poor to non-existenrt educational attainment, zilch levels of expectation of any kind, just a grinding day to day rather hopeless existence. They have no voice (unless they riot etc), no power of any kind and we, the chattering classes (of all political hues) , have allowed this to develop and continue. It's small wonder that they are targets for the EDL. That rather upsets me as well, both for the waste of humanity and for the social problems created.
That's actually most of us - we struggle and batter away to pay rent and mortgages, put food on the table and still find a few quid to attend football matches. The most interesting thing about the News of the World saga was that a lot of people began to appreciate the cosy little cartels that go on behind the scenes and how our political process has been bought lock, stock and barrel. Have a look at the last dozen or so things you bought - or even the contents of your weekly shopping basket. How many of the clothes you are wearing or the food you buy was made in the UK? Even how much was even made in the EU? Have a look at the labels, multiply that by the 60 million or so of us on this Island and you'll see that we have outsourced way too much to Asia and places where union rights, environmental controls and child labour laws are non-existent. even our utilities are owned by overseas companies who pay no tax here.
Hating on the muslims/irish/jews/foreigners does not help and misses the point.
But we are going to change anything then it's us who have to start the ball rolling.
We have blown a magnificent post-war legacy, we've sat and watched the mines, ship building yards, car manufacturing plants, steel mills and dozens of other jobs disappear, and why? Because those cosy little cartels deemed it acceptable and the tory press shoveled a load of shit down our throats and called it progress and a benefit to the UK.
By all means get angry, but direct it at the right people and in the right way.
Taking power by violent means is justified only when the State uses violence, but we have a democratic process (it still exists), that is what we should use, those that live by the sword, have a habit of dying that way and we mustn't confuse populism with democracy.
Henry can you also tell me what I should be doing its all very confusing, shall I go for a Chinese for lunch or a sandwich from Tesco's, what would we all do without someone like you to tell us how to think hey.
I'd go for the Chinese. Sandwiches from Tesco's can be pretty dry.
The joke is that they are made by the same people.
Henry can you also tell me what I should be doing its all very confusing, shall I go for a Chinese for lunch or a sandwich from Tesco's, what would we all do without someone like you to tell us how to think hey.
I'd go for the Chinese. Sandwiches from Tesco's can be pretty dry.
Not at lunch time, real good hard working English only eat Chinese/Indian/Kebabs/Mexican/Thai/Pizza from 11.30pm Friday & Saturdays.
As I was walking down towards the ground last night, I saw these being handed out (though at first glance just thought it was a random leaflet / flyer). I had been looking forward to the game for ages, as I was taking my 3 year old boy for the first time.
You know what little kids are like - he said "Daddy, can I get a picture card?" Thought he was gonna end up with a kebab shop flyer and as we walked past, the guy held out his hand and then drew back sharply. He just said "Not for you fella".
It wasn't until the guy behind me asked if I was ok, that I realised what was being handed out. I am a quarter Japanese and so have a slight tan.
I was utterly mortified. Luckily, my boy is too young to understand what was going on.
That is such a truly awful thing to happen Damo. If there's one crumb of comfort to be taken from it, it's that it shows these morons up for exactly what they are.
Henry can you also tell me what I should be doing its all very confusing, shall I go for a Chinese for lunch or a sandwich from Tesco's, what would we all do without someone like you to tell us how to think hey.
I'd go for the Chinese. Sandwiches from Tesco's can be pretty dry.
Henry im not saying anyone should be attacked and im not defending the EDL either. Im saying ignoring and issue and saying it isnt there leeds to extremism.
As does inflating that problem out of all proportion and blaming it on the Irish/Jews/Blacks/Asians/Eastern Europeans/Muslims.
You say you're not defending the EDL which is good. I wish you would condemn them as the racist front organisation that your know they are.
Henry can you also tell me what I should be doing its all very confusing, shall I go for a Chinese for lunch or a sandwich from Tesco's, what would we all do without someone like you to tell us how to think hey.
Oh sarcasm and misplaced sarcasm at that
Where have I told you or anyone how to think? No I didn't in any way tell anyone how to think.
So a pretty pointless input to the debate really from you.
Your right im not gonna contribute to this debate, it all ends in tears it always does, my point being that the bloke said he wasn't defending the EDL (which you were quick to assume he was) and yet you still say "I wish you would condemn them", why? why should he condemn they like me he probably doesnt know enough about them to condemn them. Therefore to me you are just trying to impose your unqualified opinion on him.
Comments
Ormston please expalin how its not discriminating against the English re devolution ? Please explain the Midlothian question ? how is it right that MPs from devolved parliaments can also vote on "English issues" ?
English students in Scottish UNis have to pay fees whist Scotish students dont ?
You use race "white , black, asian" we are talking about the peoples of England here.Using your style how many "black, asian, purple,etc" faces are in the Scotiish /Welsh and NI assemblies?
How starnge it is to see any form of standing up for the "english people" argued against so very very hard------------ usually by the left yet they are on their chairs -- feet and te streets when they think there is any other "discrimination".Yet it isnt happening to the English -------------- cant be-------------- i mean they are English------ discrimination dosnt happen to them-----------------------what a joke.
The fact that Labours mass imigartion hit England the hardest and the lower wage scale the hardest of all should be a huge issue to the "left" yet they cant say anything -- why ? because its the people of England who are geting hit and its their darling Labour party who allowed it to happpen.
It the Labour Party wont stand up for England
The Tories sold us out under Thatcher
The Liberals --ha ha please
The BNP ( clue is the first word British)
then who ?
saying its all a myth and ignoring it is just a cop out and leeds to ongoing resentment.
As I was walking down towards the ground last night, I saw these being handed out (though at first glance just thought it was a random leaflet / flyer). I had been looking forward to the game for ages, as I was taking my 3 year old boy for the first time.
You know what little kids are like - he said "Daddy, can I get a picture card?" Thought he was gonna end up with a kebab shop flyer and as we walked past, the guy held out his hand and then drew back sharply. He just said "Not for you fella".
It wasn't until the guy behind me asked if I was ok, that I realised what was being handed out. I am a quarter Japanese and so have a slight tan.
I was utterly mortified. Luckily, my boy is too young to understand what was going on.
Ormiston and Seth have nailed it for me.
Most Muslims I know and I live in a multi racial area in East London are good , honest and honourable people who hate extremism within their own community in the way I hate the EDL and all it stands for.
GH, you are priceless. Most/all the people in the EDL couldn't spell mid-lothian let alone explain what it was. So what you are saying is that it's the Scots that are the problem and that the EDL should be attacking them?
They just want someone to hate. For now it's the Muslim's but as DamoNorthstand's experience shows they just lump anyone with a darker skin together.
Damo, sorry you had to experience that anywhere but especially at Charlton. I walked past the runt outside the Kebab shop but he didn't hand me anything. I'm white so not sure why he didn't try to pass a leaflet to me. maybe it was because I was walking upright and wasn't dragging my knuckles on the ground.
1947 no i didnt agree with devolution.
As for people saying its hogwash that the English get the same say as the rest of the UK that is total and utter cr*p. They cant and wont answer the Midlothian question because its totaly unfare to the English.
They wont answer when even Red Eds own speach writer says Labour was hostile to the ENGLISH working class. If Labour was nostile to a minority these same people who are saying that its all a myth would be the first on the streets.-------------------------you are a total joke.
Gooner are you aware that there was a referendum on English devloution and the northeners so said so strongly that no one else was asked.
Also Scottish MPs are restricted in the debates they can vote on. What about the poor Northern Irish who vote for their MP only for them not to take up their seat?
The world isn't perfect, but its more perfect for the English than it is for a good number of people.
Stu I diodn't say the club shoul ddeal with it. I said WE should. We are alsways talking about how its not the players, owners, managers club but its our club. Therefore its our problem to deal with.
If they turn up in numbers to hand out leaflets, we tuen up in number to tel them where to stick their leaflets.
Fans doing nothing is not what has got our club to where it is today.
Henry im not saying anyone should be attacked and im not defending the EDL either. Im saying ignoring and issue and saying it isnt there leeds to extremism.
My experience of people with GH's views on the Union are similar as Spiritof1947 states above , so an English Parliament is a non starter.
In terms of the British Parliament Scotland is also getting less seats in the next Parliament and there will be certain legislation that they cannot vote on .
Much of the function carried out by the Scottish Parliament apart from Tax raising is carried out in our Region by the Mayor and the Greater London Assembly as is said above the North of England voted against a Regional Assembly.
I did see them but was on the opposite side of the road and didn't know who they were.
Wise words
You say you're not defending the EDL which is good. I wish you would condemn them as the racist front organisation that your know they are.
What I detest about the EDL are their weasel words. We know what they are about there's no doubting that they played a role in the Norwegian tragedy by irresponsibly hyping up a problem. By all means articulate your cause but do with reason and a little intellectual rigour, otherwise you are merely using the rhetoric of hate, and that can cut both ways. Next time some socially maladjuted thug is heard voicing vague threats he might just get awken at dawn to see a squad of policemen standing over him because they daren't take any threat from these people with anything other than 100% seriousness. Maybe the finger trigger on one of those policemen will slip.
Some people will claim that they are merely indulging in free speech and that their views should be heard, that misses the point. when it's used to incite violence and causes death then it's an irresponsible use of power.
GH, There's a slight mistake in your post; it's the West Lothian Question, as proposed by Tam Dalyell. You might be slightly confused over its impact; members of devolved parliaments can't vote on English issues, though MPs to Westminster from those regions can. Essentially the question is: Why do the Scots, Welsh and North Irish all have their own parliaments/assemblies AND seats in Westminster while the English only have seats in Westminster? (Dalyell illustrated his point by pointing out how he, as an MP to Westminster, could vote on certain issues in Blackburn, Lancashire but could not on the same certain issues in Blackburn, West Lothian - his own constituency.) I agree, however, that devolution is somewhat unfair on the English.
Northern Ireland cannot really be considered in the same light as the Welsh and Scottish assemblies as Stormont was constructed given the historical context of the Troubles (I saw a reference to the NI Assembly earlier I believe). Scotland is also different, as its economy is heavily based on agriculture and fishing, with a separate assembly actually leading to certain issues being handled better in Scotland - the prime example being Foot and Mouth.
Overall, devolution is necessary given how each Home Nation is different in terms of resources/internal economy etc. And you must remember that devolved Parliaments only exist because Westminster allows them to exist.
Where have I told you or anyone how to think? No I didn't in any way tell anyone how to think.
So a pretty pointless input to the debate really from you.
That's actually most of us - we struggle and batter away to pay rent and mortgages, put food on the table and still find a few quid to attend football matches. The most interesting thing about the News of the World saga was that a lot of people began to appreciate the cosy little cartels that go on behind the scenes and how our political process has been bought lock, stock and barrel. Have a look at the last dozen or so things you bought - or even the contents of your weekly shopping basket. How many of the clothes you are wearing or the food you buy was made in the UK? Even how much was even made in the EU? Have a look at the labels, multiply that by the 60 million or so of us on this Island and you'll see that we have outsourced way too much to Asia and places where union rights, environmental controls and child labour laws are non-existent. even our utilities are owned by overseas companies who pay no tax here.
Hating on the muslims/irish/jews/foreigners does not help and misses the point.
But we are going to change anything then it's us who have to start the ball rolling.
We have blown a magnificent post-war legacy, we've sat and watched the mines, ship building yards, car manufacturing plants, steel mills and dozens of other jobs disappear, and why? Because those cosy little cartels deemed it acceptable and the tory press shoveled a load of shit down our throats and called it progress and a benefit to the UK.
By all means get angry, but direct it at the right people and in the right way.
Taking power by violent means is justified only when the State uses violence, but we have a democratic process (it still exists), that is what we should use, those that live by the sword, have a habit of dying that way and we mustn't confuse populism with democracy.
The joke is that they are made by the same people.
Oiiiii whats going on here i never said naff all about what to eat ?
its a very danergous thing that