Similar to being ''put in it together'' by Labour public school boys Blair and Brown. At least one of whom put us into ruinously expensive wars, one of which was illegal, which would make the leader of a less respected country to be called a mass murderer. Possibly
What's saddening, and it's what I linked to earlier, is the desire to rush to the bottom, it's not public sector workers fault that the trade unions have defended their position, and that the private sector has dropped to the bottom. Even the Telegraph say that public sector pensions aren't unsustainable.
Noooooooo!!! Not religion! It's worse than politics....
There's a couple of things that frustrate me about the whole public sector pension debate. There's little recognition that not all the schemes are the same in terms of the % employee & employer contributions, whether they go into a pension fund or come out of general taxation, and it's never clear which type of average they're using when comparing public v private provision. The other thing is that a number of the schemes have already been reformed reasonably recently - the Local Government Pension Scheme changed the basis for those retiring after 2010 about 3 or 4 years ago.
I suspect emplyers would try to get shot of emplyees over 65 as they do at the moment - ageism is still rife and will always be as old don't get young and visa versa. 68 year old dustmen, nurses, firemen......I just can't see it.
Apologies, dont wish to accuse you of something you are not - would like to add though some thought provoking counters:
a) Ireland shows how cutting Public Spending at the wrong time can do more damage. Massive cuts in spending and the public sector has impacted on the private sector and has increased unemployement there and sapped demand. Ireland is now considered more at risk of Soverign debt than before the cuts.
b) A big reason IMO to economic collapse is the global race to cut labour costs. The value of UK wages has fallen about 10% from the 70's to about 55% now, where as Corporate Profit has increased from 13% then to 21% now.
c) Tax avoidance and non collection. An additional £26 bilion is going uncollected -leaked treasury documents in 2006 estimated the tax gap to be between £97 and £150billion. To put this into context, Benefit Fraud is estimated to annualy represent 1% of this figure.
d) War - Trident - a weapon that has failed the moment it is used costs us 1.5 billion a year - Afghanistan costs us £2.6 billion and add to that the costs of Iraq and increasing costs in recent activities in Libya etc...
There are alternative ways to save money and not take so much from workers pockets which makes recovery more difficult.
In answer to the points you make,
a) Ireland - getting the right balance is difficult but my understanding of the Irish situation is that they under-estimated the level of recapitalisation of their failed government guaranteed banking sector and this was the catalyst which in the end forced them to request a greater bail out after the initial measures they took. My belief is that we don't have that problem and that our banks have re-capitalised to greater levels than pre-crunch.
Look also at what is happening now in the Euro-zone in respect of Greece. No serious analyst believes that Greece wont default its just a matter of when. Contagion or the serious threat of it will be a huge risk if this happens, with our deficit so high, in order to be able to weather the contagion storm which will spread out from Greece, it is imperative that we have a cogent deficit reduction policy and the will to carry it out. Make no mistake, if the storm comes it may be worse than the first credit crunch following the collapse of Lehmann Bros. The worry for me is that despite the measures we are taking, the world economy wont be able to spend its way out in the same way as happened post credit crunch. The affect on the global economy will be to push it back into recession, stifle the weak recovery which is under way and hasten more austerity. Our ability to allow our currency to devalue if necessary will help us to ride this out but it will be one hell of a ride.
b) Our economy is not operating in isolation to the world economy. If wage costs are going down, we have to ensure that the jobs created in our economy are high valued added. Hence the need to up skill our future workforce with greater focus on science and engineering as well as traditional areas such as medicine, and law.
c) Tax avoidance is always an old chestnut - trotted out by those to the left as a way of curbing the excesses of capitalism and greed. It is possible to close some loopholes and all governments try this. I am always sceptical about the figures quoted because by definition they can only be estimates because it amounts to something that is not declared. Believe me, if the last government thought it could rake in the figure you suggest, it would have done so. I give you two reasons why not. The first is that the reality is the number isn't anything like as high as is claimed. Secondly its a hard nosed calculation that in stopping the avoidance, jobs will move off shore, entrepreneurial investment will diminish, companies will be less profitable and therefore employ less tax payers reducing the tax take with a resultant increase in Gov't spending.
d) Trident - agreed - it should be scrapped and be replaced by another delivery system for our minimum deterrent.
Bing - how do you know the tax avoidance figures aren't anything like as high as those claimed? Maybe they're higher? The personal wealth of british citizens is huge. I really don't understand how these tax havens exist or why they are allowed to - the world needs to come together on this - somehow. Why should Switzerland or even Monaco for instance get away with never getting involved in any of the world's wars and yet have a wonderful standard of living because people spend the money they've extracted from country's like ours, there. I'm sure there must be a good reason for it?
There's a couple of things that frustrate me about the whole public sector pension debate. There's little recognition that not all the schemes are the same in terms of the % employee & employer contributions, whether they go into a pension fund or come out of general taxation, and it's never clear which type of average they're using when comparing public v private provision. The other thing is that a number of the schemes have already been reformed reasonably recently - the Local Government Pension Scheme changed the basis for those retiring after 2010 about 3 or 4 years ago.
These are great points Mr Wibble. Those in local authorities have already accepted a worse deal but the government has come back for some more (on top of the redundancies, pay freezes, reduced hours, attacks on allowances, etc, etc). TBH another attack on public sector pensions was always going to be the straw that broke the camels back.
Whenever the subject of public sector pensions is discussed they are all lumped in togetherwhereas in reality they are hugely diverse in the way they operate and their returns. There's a definitehierarchy and at the top of the tree is the Prime Minister himself, who I believe gets a full pension, for life, if he does only one single day in office. Nice work if you can get it!
Bing - how do you know the tax avoidance figures aren't anything like as high as those claimed? Maybe they're higher? The personal wealth of british citizens is huge. I really don't understand how these tax havens exist or why they are allowed to - the world needs to come together on this - somehow. Why should Switzerland or even Monaco for instance get away with never getting involved in any of the world's wars and yet have a wonderful standard of living because people spend the money they've extracted from country's like ours, there. I'm sure there must be a good reason for it?
Is 'Mad' David Icke right?, are we secretly managed and manipulated by a world wide cabal of lizards who live in high towers and cities built in the shape of an all seeing owl ? Or have I been drinking too much Anisette?
William Tell has a lot to answer for. The 'plucky' little Swiss should have had it up em years ago. This polyglot nation of theiving Italians, French, Germans and Roma has grown fat on the proceeds of war for hundreds of years, as far back as when the pope appointed the Swiss guard. But all wars and 'economies' are run and financed by the same people, people who have an interest in keeping a few bankable countries solvent and inviolet from wars and famines. Read Catch22 for a few clues.
The 'Welfare State' has resulted in a dormant slave society throughout Europe. Millions have just enough to live on. Never never credit, the cause of the last few 'financial disasters' takes up the slack when welfare runs out or cannot supply all of life's little luxuries so necessary to modern living; IPad, Iphone, MePhone, Uphone, skybox, smoothie makers, pot noodles , CAFC Season Tickets
Chickens will soon be coming home to roost. The chickens will be followed by the vultures.
Soultion?.. Chcek out IRobot by Asimov .. errr.. the book, NOT the ridiculous movie of the same name
sorry, i got right off the point there. The strikes should be encouraged at the very least as a means to attempt to bring the whole concept of public finance and public debt out in the open. However, I am sure that most people are more interested in XFactor, East Enders, Corrie and the Footy. Pensions?, the future? .. nah, not bovvered mate
There's a couple of things that frustrate me about the whole public sector pension debate. There's little recognition that not all the schemes are the same in terms of the % employee & employer contributions, whether they go into a pension fund or come out of general taxation, and it's never clear which type of average they're using when comparing public v private provision. The other thing is that a number of the schemes have already been reformed reasonably recently - the Local Government Pension Scheme changed the basis for those retiring after 2010 about 3 or 4 years ago.
These are great points Mr Wibble. Those in local authorities have already accepted a worse deal but the government has come back for some more (on top of the redundancies, pay freezes, reduced hours, attacks on allowances, etc, etc). TBH another attack on public sector pensions was always going to be the straw that broke the camels back.
Whenever the subject of public sector pensions is discussed they are all lumped in togetherwhereas in reality they are hugely diverse in the way they operate and their returns. There's a definitehierarchy and at the top of the tree is the Prime Minister himself, who I believe gets a full pension, for life, if he does only one single day in office. Nice work if you can get it!
likewise the NHS scheme for new entrants. The Civil Service pension benefits have been watered down over the past 10+ years.
Did I hear correctly on Radio 5 this morning? The combined savings made by the current government so far amount to 6 billion or so. The amount we have paid to bale out Ireland and others is over 12 billion?
We need to stop thinking in terms of we saved 6 billion here but spent 12 billion on Ireland or Greece or Aid initiatives. Global economics isn't that simplistic in as much as it is not like our personal bank accounts of pay in/pay out nominations. What are the consequences for the UK if Ireland/Greece/Portugal goes under? What would the lasting damage to the global economy be then? Unfortunately the answers to these questions are hard to put into simple figures and therefore the most the general public get to see is the figures shown in the tabloids and broadsheets.....who need figures like 6 billion in 12 billion out to justify their owners political stance.
On the BBC last night, they said that BAA systems (the UK defence manufacturer) earns £4bn in exports.
Pretty impressive stuff, till I heard that the trade gap is £30bn !
We have to stop airfreighting raspberries from Ecuador / tulips from Kenya, and get UK workers working on British based projects, so that we can get our own house in order.
Not interested in Greece, Spain, Rep of Ireland, Libya, Iraq, Afganistan, or Africa.
If the banking crisis has taught us anything, it's that, anyone who thought the downsizing of their home would release enough equity for retirement is mistaken, and anyone who thinks there is any money in the Government pension pot going forward is also mistaken.
Time to pull up the drawbridge and start looking after Number 1, as a country and as individuals, until the economic situation improves.
On the BBC last night, they said that BAA systems (the UK defence manufacturer) earns £4bn in exports.
Pretty impressive stuff, till I heard that the trade gap is £30bn !
We have to stop airfreighting raspberries from Ecuador / tulips from Kenya, and get UK workers working on British based projects, so that we can get our own house in order.
Not interested in Greece, Spain, Rep of Ireland, Libya, Iraq, Afganistan, or Africa.
If the banking crisis has taught us anything, it's that, anyone who thought the downsizing of their home would release enough equity for retirement is mistaken, and anyone who thinks there is any money in the Government pension pot going forward is also mistaken.
Time to pull up the drawbridge and start looking after Number 1, as a country and as individuals, until the economic situation improves.
bad news is Valiantphil that the economic situation will not improve if we follow the line you are suggesting. Just isn't possible in the inter connected world we live in today.
We need to stop thinking in terms of we saved 6 billion here but spent 12 billion on Ireland or Greece or Aid initiatives. Global economics isn't that simplistic in as much as it is not like our personal bank accounts of pay in/pay out nominations. What are the consequences for the UK if Ireland/Greece/Portugal goes under? What would the lasting damage to the global economy be then? Unfortunately the answers to these questions are hard to put into simple figures and therefore the most the general public get to see is the figures shown in the tabloids and broadsheets.....who need figures like 6 billion in 12 billion out to justify their owners political stance.
Blimey BD, I only mentioned something I thought I heard in a radio debate. I didnt expect the Spanish Inquisition
We need to stop thinking in terms of we saved 6 billion here but spent 12 billion on Ireland or Greece or Aid initiatives. Global economics isn't that simplistic in as much as it is not like our personal bank accounts of pay in/pay out nominations. What are the consequences for the UK if Ireland/Greece/Portugal goes under? What would the lasting damage to the global economy be then? Unfortunately the answers to these questions are hard to put into simple figures and therefore the most the general public get to see is the figures shown in the tabloids and broadsheets.....who need figures like 6 billion in 12 billion out to justify their owners political stance.
Blimey BD, I only mentioned something I thought I heard in a radio debate. I didnt expect the Spanish Inquisition
I'm with you Floyd.
Because it's "Europe" (which is what the apologists prefer to call the EU) anything goes and if you say anything critical at all you are described as a Little Englander or similar.
It is perfectly reasonable to ask why we can seemingly afford to lob billions at a foreign currency when we cannot afford to give our own workers proper pensions after contributing all their working lives.
Our protests should be against the political class. They need to be made more accountable. No more immunity from prosecution for their corrupt actions.
An example would be putting the budget to referendum each year. Why are we buying weapons for India through the fluffily titled "overseas aid" budget whilst simultaneously scrapping our own independent defence capability and relying on the French as a stepping stone to an EU Army?
We need to fight the right enemy the treacherous, traitorous bastards in our Parliament, Civil Service and Town Halls who act in the interests of anybody but the British people they are supposed to serve.
We need to stop thinking in terms of we saved 6 billion here but spent 12 billion on Ireland or Greece or Aid initiatives. Global economics isn't that simplistic in as much as it is not like our personal bank accounts of pay in/pay out nominations. What are the consequences for the UK if Ireland/Greece/Portugal goes under? What would the lasting damage to the global economy be then? Unfortunately the answers to these questions are hard to put into simple figures and therefore the most the general public get to see is the figures shown in the tabloids and broadsheets.....who need figures like 6 billion in 12 billion out to justify their owners political stance.
Blimey BD, I only mentioned something I thought I heard in a radio debate. I didnt expect the Spanish Inquisition
Sorry Floyd wasn't meant to come over like. Apologies.
no worries! It just reminded me of my trips to the supermarket looking for best price prducts to save a few pence, then going out on the lash in town and blowing a fortune.
Comments
Possibly
Put another way, should we allow children to be brainwashed?
There's a couple of things that frustrate me about the whole public sector pension debate. There's little recognition that not all the schemes are the same in terms of the % employee & employer contributions, whether they go into a pension fund or come out of general taxation, and it's never clear which type of average they're using when comparing public v private provision. The other thing is that a number of the schemes have already been reformed reasonably recently - the Local Government Pension Scheme changed the basis for those retiring after 2010 about 3 or 4 years ago.
These are great points Mr Wibble. Those in local authorities have already accepted a worse deal but the government has come back for some more (on top of the redundancies, pay freezes, reduced hours, attacks on allowances, etc, etc). TBH another attack on public sector pensions was always going to be the straw that broke the camels back.
Whenever the subject of public sector pensions is discussed they are all lumped in together whereas in reality they are hugely diverse in the way they operate and their returns. There's a definite hierarchy and at the top of the tree is the Prime Minister himself, who I believe gets a full pension, for life, if he does only one single day in office. Nice work if you can get it!
Is 'Mad' David Icke right?, are we secretly managed and manipulated by a world wide cabal of lizards who live in high towers and cities built in the shape of an all seeing owl ? Or have I been drinking too much Anisette?
William Tell has a lot to answer for. The 'plucky' little Swiss should have had it up em years ago. This polyglot nation of theiving Italians, French, Germans and Roma has grown fat on the proceeds of war for hundreds of years, as far back as when the pope appointed the Swiss guard. But all wars and 'economies' are run and financed by the same people, people who have an interest in keeping a few bankable countries solvent and inviolet from wars and famines. Read Catch22 for a few clues.
The 'Welfare State' has resulted in a dormant slave society throughout Europe. Millions have just enough to live on. Never never credit, the cause of the last few 'financial disasters' takes up the slack when welfare runs out or cannot supply all of life's little luxuries so necessary to modern living; IPad, Iphone, MePhone, Uphone, skybox, smoothie makers, pot noodles , CAFC Season Tickets
Chickens will soon be coming home to roost. The chickens will be followed by the vultures.
Soultion?.. Chcek out IRobot by Asimov .. errr.. the book, NOT the ridiculous movie of the same name
The combined savings made by the current government so far amount to 6 billion or so.
The amount we have paid to bale out Ireland and others is over 12 billion?
I didnt expect the Spanish Inquisition
I'm with you Floyd.
Because it's "Europe" (which is what the apologists prefer to call the EU) anything goes and if you say anything critical at all you are described as a Little Englander or similar.
It is perfectly reasonable to ask why we can seemingly afford to lob billions at a foreign currency when we cannot afford to give our own workers proper pensions after contributing all their working lives.
Our protests should be against the political class. They need to be made more accountable. No more immunity from prosecution for their corrupt actions.
An example would be putting the budget to referendum each year. Why are we buying weapons for India through the fluffily titled "overseas aid" budget whilst simultaneously scrapping our own independent defence capability and relying on the French as a stepping stone to an EU Army?
We need to fight the right enemy the treacherous, traitorous bastards in our Parliament, Civil Service and Town Halls who act in the interests of anybody but the British people they are supposed to serve.
Rant Over.
It just reminded me of my trips to the supermarket looking for best price prducts to save a few pence, then going out on the lash in town and blowing a fortune.