they were hammered, is that an excuse? it was funny. the english didn't know the words to whatever the scots were singing but tried to join in anyway
when at the world cup, we were at a fan park in munich before the game we were going to. brazil v australia. they were all singing and dancing around together, before and after the game (both amazingly happy nationalities!) got it on my camera, will try to get it on here. swapping sombrero's for hats with corks on.
I watched that match in the Puzzle on the Fulham palace road and very similar, 50/50 Aussies and Brazilian. Singing dancing and just getting on fabulously.
Teaches us a lesson.
Mind you i remember the Sun's front page before england germany in Euro 96 (i think) and it was al WW2.
[cite]Posted By: Mortimerician[/cite]It got Pierced Organ the sack though, so not all bad.
i think he did a lot of things that got him sacked ultimately. i read his book over christmas, the insights into the way the press works and teh hold they have over everybody is quite amazing
[quote][cite]Posted By: Mortimerician[/cite]It got Pierced Organ the sack though, so not all bad.[/quote]
I think he got the tin-tack for buying shares in a company that was being written about in the shares pages of the Mirror and then lying about it.
The Mirror story I remember from Euro 96 was the issue published on the day of the Quarter final when England played Spain, their contribution to international harmony and understanding was ten things that Spain has given the world, besides paella etc in there somewhere was syphilis.
no place for that inside the valley. we pride ourselves on being a family club. what about the 'kick racism out of football' campaign that started at the valley, that 'we' are proud of? this kind of behaviour is not needed. you can get at players using other 'funny' stick.
I take what you say and agree to a certain extent.But when you say what a joy it was to see both sets of fans mingling so well, i hope you don't act hypocritcally when we play Palace.
Oh Clive, you Sun readers are just so tiresome and predictable.
Let's have a look at this shall we? Let's say, for example, the next time Pakistan play England at cricket that their fans start throwing backpacks onto the field and then mimicking the 7/7 explosions, would you find that sort of "banter" hilarious? No, I did not think so and I doubt your thought processors at Wapping would think it hilarious either.
Or, let's try another one, Charlton somehow qualify for Europe and play Trabszonspor (that's in Turkey, Clive) and you find 10,000 fans making monkey noises and otherwise racially abusing our black players, would you be rolling in the aisles at their "banter" as well?
By the way, John Cleese did his "Don't mention the war" episode of Fawlty Towers in 1975. That's 32 years ago Clive, it was quite funny then because the guests in the scene were obviously old enough to have been involved in the war. Its not funny now because the war ended 62 years ago and we've all moved on a bit since then. Well, some of us have.
I love your logic as well, "If you're easily offended by football banter, don't go" - I guess that means that when I saw people throwing bananas at John Barnes or calling John Fashanu "a black c--t" over and over again (although I can't argue about the c--t bit) then I just should have walked away from the game I love and left all you side-splitting banter merchants to it.
I am so, so glad that myself and the "so-called PC brigade", no doubt your default Sun reader response to anyone who might challenge your limited world view, gave you a laugh. However, let me return the compliment in full by saying that sheep-following merchants like yourself give me far, far more entertainment than I could ever honestly wish for.
[quote][cite]Posted By: Ormiston Addick[/cite]Oh Clive, you Sun readers are just so tiresome and predictable.
Let's have a look at this shall we? Let's say, for example, the next time Pakistan play England at cricket that their fans start throwing backpacks onto the field and then mimicking the 7/7 explosions, would you find that sort of "banter" hilarious? No, I did not think so and I doubt your thought processors at Wapping would think it hilarious either.
Or, let's try another one, Charlton somehow qualify for Europe and play Trabszonspor (that's in Turkey, Clive) and you find 10,000 fans making monkey noises and otherwise racially abusing our black players, would you be rolling in the aisles at their "banter" as well?
By the way, John Cleese did his "Don't mention the war" episode of Fawlty Towers in 1975. That's 32 years ago Clive, it was quite funny then because the guests in the scene were obviously old enough to have been involved in the war. Its not funny now because the war ended 62 years ago and we've all moved on a bit since then. Well, some of us have.
I love your logic as well, "If you're easily offended by football banter, don't go" - I guess that means that when I saw people throwing bananas at John Barnes or calling John Fashanu "a black c--t" over and over again (although I can't argue about the c--t bit) then I just should have walked away from the game I love and left all you side-splitting banter merchants to it.
I am so, so glad that myself and the "so-called PC brigade", no doubt your default Sun reader response to anyone who might challenge your limited world view, gave you a laugh. However, let me return the compliment in full by saying that sheep-following merchants like yourself give me far, far more entertainment than I could ever honestly wish for.[/quote]
Well said...funny how the words 'it's all PC gorn mad innit' or some form thereof are often rolled out to justify anything that panders to the lowest common denominator.
sod all this character assasination some think it's ok some don't.Let's not all fall out over it.Whether you agree with the chap who did it or not,for all we know it could have been a moment's lapse like i sometimes have with expletives.I don't feel that great about it after but it happened and I ain't a bad person.If we took this attitude with everyone who eff'd and blinded the ground would be half empty.So unless the chap is a persistent offender and if he surely was he would have been throw out by now,let's put it down to ill-judged moment of madness and not go too overboard.
ormiston and the rest of you lily livered liberals who as usual are taking everything out of proportion ,putting words into peoples mouths and getting all girly lets examine your analogies shall we ? where did i write that it was funny ?????????? so whats with comparing charlton playing in turkey all about ??????????????? The cricket analogy , we have and do allow people to mimick the 7/7 bombers its called free speech , if this bloke felt like mimicing Hitler , should we not allow him to do same?? or should we ban him are you able to discuss this without resorting to sweeping generalisations and insults , i doubt it??
you know nothing about me apart from a few lines posted in response to a banal negative comment about how someone annoyed poor suzie , i assume from your overreactions you are only defending suzie, very commendable
I am only interested in charlton and my club, you can stick your political judgements up your harris
i understand where you're coming from, but there's a bit of difference between effing and blinding at a football match and what he did.
i dare say i'll end up trying to see if he takes part in any other abysmal behaviour at future games. he did it more than once during the game on saturday, so not just a quick spur of the moment action. he did it repeatedly
i don't know whether i'm more gobsmacked by the apathy shown or the action of the guy!
No, Clive, we should not allow Pakistanis to goad Londoners over the 7/7 bombings OR Charlton fans to make Nazi salutes at innocent German footballers - that's why both would be criminal offences under the various anti-racism and public order legislation that we have in the UK and most other civillised countries these days. I just love the "lily livered liberals" comment too, that really has made my day. For the record, I am a 34 year old 6ft 2in 17 stone former amateur boxer with a face like a busted arse and a shaved head and my main hobbies are drinking copious amounts of beer and eating barely cooked steak, but, hey, let's not let any "sweeping generalisations and insults" to get into this debate. I suppose you think that the "lily livered liberals" and "PC brigade" were wrong to take a stand against racist chanting and abuse in the 1980's? In your original post you said, "you PC brigade make me laugh. if your [sic] so easily offended by football banter don't go," well, I ask you, if people find something offensive then should they not have the guts to stand up and do something about it, rather than take the easy way out and stay quiet? Let me tell you something, both my Grandfathers suffered terribly because of the Nazis and hated them but if they had seen some idiot football supporter making "joke" Nazi salutes then they would have given them a slap because they would have been furious at seeing someone doing that in England, even as a joke. Rothko, I can't agree with you on this one, mate. You say, "If we took this attitude with everyone who eff'd and blinded the ground would be half empty" well, that's true but we are not talking about swearing here are we? I have been chucked out several times in my younger days at Selhurst and Upton Park for swearing but that is something completely different to this. There is absolutely no difference between chucking bananas and making monkey noises at black players and making Nazi salutes at German players, both represent vile racist behaviour and should be given zero tolerance. For the record, someone should check with Henry Irving, but I am pretty sure that our Nazi saluting fan would/should have been kicked out if he had been spotted doing that by the police or stewards.
[cite]Posted By: Ormiston Addick[/cite]
For the record, I am a 34 year old 6ft 2in 17 stone former amateur boxer with a face like a busted arse and a shaved head.
we'd be sure to spot you in the Oak, then!
I'm disappointed the arsehole Suzi mentions wasn't kicked out.
[cite]Posted By: Ormiston Addick[/cite]No, Clive, we should not allow Pakistanis to goad Londoners over the 7/7 bombings OR Charlton fans to make Nazi salutes at innocent German footballers - that's why both would be criminal offences under the various anti-racism and public order legislation that we have in the UK and most other civillised countries these days.
I just love the "lily livered liberals" comment too, that really has made my day. For the record, I am a 34 year old 6ft 2in 17 stone former amateur boxer with a face like a busted arse and a shaved head and my main hobbies are drinking copious amounts of beer and eating barely cooked steak, but, hey, let's not let any "sweeping generalisations and insults" to get into this debate.
I suppose you think that the "lily livered liberals" and "PC brigade" were wrong to take a stand against racist chanting and abuse in the 1980's?
In your original post you said, "you PC brigade make me laugh. if your [sic] so easily offended by football banter don't go," well, I ask you, if people find something offensive then should they not have the guts to stand up and do something about it, rather than take the easy way out and stay quiet?
Let me tell you something, both my Grandfathers suffered terribly because of the Nazis and hated them but if they had seen some idiot football supporter making "joke" Nazi salutes then they would have given them a slap because they would have been furious at seeing someone doing that in England, even as a joke.
Rothko, I can't agree with you on this one, mate. You say, "If we took this attitude with everyone who eff'd and blinded the ground would be half empty" well, that's true but we are not talking about swearing here are we? I have been chucked out several times in my younger days at Selhurst and Upton Park for swearing but that is something completely different to this. There is absolutely no difference between chucking bananas and making monkey noises at black players and making Nazi salutes at German players, both represent vile racist behaviour and should be given zero tolerance.
For the record, someone should check with Henry Irving, but I am pretty sure that our Nazi saluting fan would/should have been kicked out if he had been spotted doing that by the police or stewards.
Great post Ormiston-
As you say, it takes someone to report him though, rather than just sit there and moan.
BTW-Suzi, that's not at you- I truly promise!- it's a comment for anyone sitting anyone in the Valley who see's this sort of rubbish and want's rid!
For once in my life I find myself with the "PC" crowd on this one.
It was wrong when people (presumably Charlton "fans") threw bananas at Carlton Fairweather when we played Wimbledon at Selhurst 20 odd years ago and equally, with the "baggage" attached to it, a Nazi salute is as potentially offensive to most Germans as throwing bananas is offensive to black people in my opinion.
I can remember the anger, disappointment and condemnation expressed when di Canio made his Nazi salute. What would people be saying if Ballack had retaliated in kind to the guy in the crowd? Surely on that basis it's double standards for the crowd to make Nazi salutes to the players?
I think the stewards should intially have politely asked the bloke to stop since there is (regrettably) a history of that sort of goading of German players and teams. If he continued though, having politely been asked to stop, then it would have been fair enough to eject him.
I think most of the sane posters on here are seemingly in agreement that Nazi salutes are simply not on. However, no offence to Len Glover whose posts I really enjoy reading, but can we please, please, please stop labelling things we don't immediately agree with as "PC", turning it into a pejorative term and making the case that its somehow a bit wishy-washy to take a moral stand on certain points? True, there are some over-the-top examples of political correctness around the place, but it should not be considered "PC" to think that public places should be free of racist and xenophobic behaviour, its not PC at all, its just demanding civilised behaviour for the greater good.
for the record I do not agree with nazi salutes but a light hearted joke at the expense of an opposition player...I see no problem with that....not my favourite race of people Germans but they shouldn't kept being reminded of their heinous past history....
I don't give a toss if the bloke behind me spends the entire game taking the piss and effing and blinding at the opposition and calling Ronaldo a cheating c--t, that does not bother me in the slightest. I have never subscribed to the view that swearing at football is wrong, its an inherent part of the game's culture that industrial language gets used and long may it continue. If people don't want their kids to hear F, W, C and the rest of them then they should go and sit in the family section, if we still have one. But that is not the same as making Nazi salutes at Germans, throwing bananas at black players or whatever other type of racist abuse people might engage in. There is no reason to shove Nazism into the face of modern day Germans. Jeez, we don't exactly have a clean record ourselves in terms of slaughtering innocents abroad and we would not really want the people in our former "empire" to keep blaming us for the way we treated them in the 18th century, would we?
[cite]Posted By: Ormiston Addick[/cite]I think most of the sane posters on here are seemingly in agreement that Nazi salutes are simply not on.
However, no offence to Len Glover whose posts I really enjoy reading, but can we please, please, please stop labelling things we don't immediately agree with as "PC", turning it into a pejorative term and making the case that its somehow a bit wishy-washy to take a moral stand on certain points?
True, there are some over-the-top examples of political correctness around the place, but it should not be considered "PC" to think that public places should be free of racist and xenophobic behaviour, its not PC at all, its just demanding civilised behaviour for the greater good.
No offence taken and I agree with the sentiment you express.
I put the term PC in quotes simply because the thread seemed to have developed along the lines of those who disagreed with the salute being labelled PC.
In other words I was using the term in the context of this thread.
Comments
when at the world cup, we were at a fan park in munich before the game we were going to. brazil v australia. they were all singing and dancing around together, before and after the game (both amazingly happy nationalities!) got it on my camera, will try to get it on here. swapping sombrero's for hats with corks on.
Teaches us a lesson.
Mind you i remember the Sun's front page before england germany in Euro 96 (i think) and it was al WW2.
Very Sad!
I think he got the tin-tack for buying shares in a company that was being written about in the shares pages of the Mirror and then lying about it.
The Mirror story I remember from Euro 96 was the issue published on the day of the Quarter final when England played Spain, their contribution to international harmony and understanding was ten things that Spain has given the world, besides paella etc in there somewhere was syphilis.
Our former shirt sponsors Viglen no less.
Moron should have been sacked for being a dirty little schemer anyway.
it was alright for john cleese wasnt it
Let's have a look at this shall we? Let's say, for example, the next time Pakistan play England at cricket that their fans start throwing backpacks onto the field and then mimicking the 7/7 explosions, would you find that sort of "banter" hilarious? No, I did not think so and I doubt your thought processors at Wapping would think it hilarious either.
Or, let's try another one, Charlton somehow qualify for Europe and play Trabszonspor (that's in Turkey, Clive) and you find 10,000 fans making monkey noises and otherwise racially abusing our black players, would you be rolling in the aisles at their "banter" as well?
By the way, John Cleese did his "Don't mention the war" episode of Fawlty Towers in 1975. That's 32 years ago Clive, it was quite funny then because the guests in the scene were obviously old enough to have been involved in the war. Its not funny now because the war ended 62 years ago and we've all moved on a bit since then. Well, some of us have.
I love your logic as well, "If you're easily offended by football banter, don't go" - I guess that means that when I saw people throwing bananas at John Barnes or calling John Fashanu "a black c--t" over and over again (although I can't argue about the c--t bit) then I just should have walked away from the game I love and left all you side-splitting banter merchants to it.
I am so, so glad that myself and the "so-called PC brigade", no doubt your default Sun reader response to anyone who might challenge your limited world view, gave you a laugh. However, let me return the compliment in full by saying that sheep-following merchants like yourself give me far, far more entertainment than I could ever honestly wish for.
Let's have a look at this shall we? Let's say, for example, the next time Pakistan play England at cricket that their fans start throwing backpacks onto the field and then mimicking the 7/7 explosions, would you find that sort of "banter" hilarious? No, I did not think so and I doubt your thought processors at Wapping would think it hilarious either.
Or, let's try another one, Charlton somehow qualify for Europe and play Trabszonspor (that's in Turkey, Clive) and you find 10,000 fans making monkey noises and otherwise racially abusing our black players, would you be rolling in the aisles at their "banter" as well?
By the way, John Cleese did his "Don't mention the war" episode of Fawlty Towers in 1975. That's 32 years ago Clive, it was quite funny then because the guests in the scene were obviously old enough to have been involved in the war. Its not funny now because the war ended 62 years ago and we've all moved on a bit since then. Well, some of us have.
I love your logic as well, "If you're easily offended by football banter, don't go" - I guess that means that when I saw people throwing bananas at John Barnes or calling John Fashanu "a black c--t" over and over again (although I can't argue about the c--t bit) then I just should have walked away from the game I love and left all you side-splitting banter merchants to it.
I am so, so glad that myself and the "so-called PC brigade", no doubt your default Sun reader response to anyone who might challenge your limited world view, gave you a laugh. However, let me return the compliment in full by saying that sheep-following merchants like yourself give me far, far more entertainment than I could ever honestly wish for.[/quote]
Well said...funny how the words 'it's all PC gorn mad innit' or some form thereof are often rolled out to justify anything that panders to the lowest common denominator.
who as usual are taking everything out of proportion ,putting words into peoples mouths and getting all girly
lets examine your analogies shall we ?
where did i write that it was funny ??????????
so whats with comparing charlton playing in turkey all about ???????????????
The cricket analogy , we have and do allow people to mimick the 7/7 bombers its called free speech , if this bloke felt like mimicing Hitler , should we not allow him to do same?? or should we ban him
are you able to discuss this without resorting to sweeping generalisations and insults , i doubt it??
you know nothing about me apart from a few lines posted in response to a banal negative comment about how someone annoyed poor suzie , i assume from your overreactions you are only defending suzie, very commendable
I am only interested in charlton and my club, you can stick your political judgements up your harris
i dare say i'll end up trying to see if he takes part in any other abysmal behaviour at future games. he did it more than once during the game on saturday, so not just a quick spur of the moment action. he did it repeatedly
i don't know whether i'm more gobsmacked by the apathy shown or the action of the guy!
I just love the "lily livered liberals" comment too, that really has made my day. For the record, I am a 34 year old 6ft 2in 17 stone former amateur boxer with a face like a busted arse and a shaved head and my main hobbies are drinking copious amounts of beer and eating barely cooked steak, but, hey, let's not let any "sweeping generalisations and insults" to get into this debate.
I suppose you think that the "lily livered liberals" and "PC brigade" were wrong to take a stand against racist chanting and abuse in the 1980's?
In your original post you said, "you PC brigade make me laugh. if your [sic] so easily offended by football banter don't go," well, I ask you, if people find something offensive then should they not have the guts to stand up and do something about it, rather than take the easy way out and stay quiet?
Let me tell you something, both my Grandfathers suffered terribly because of the Nazis and hated them but if they had seen some idiot football supporter making "joke" Nazi salutes then they would have given them a slap because they would have been furious at seeing someone doing that in England, even as a joke.
Rothko, I can't agree with you on this one, mate. You say, "If we took this attitude with everyone who eff'd and blinded the ground would be half empty" well, that's true but we are not talking about swearing here are we? I have been chucked out several times in my younger days at Selhurst and Upton Park for swearing but that is something completely different to this. There is absolutely no difference between chucking bananas and making monkey noises at black players and making Nazi salutes at German players, both represent vile racist behaviour and should be given zero tolerance.
For the record, someone should check with Henry Irving, but I am pretty sure that our Nazi saluting fan would/should have been kicked out if he had been spotted doing that by the police or stewards.
we'd be sure to spot you in the Oak, then!
I'm disappointed the arsehole Suzi mentions wasn't kicked out.
Great post Ormiston-
As you say, it takes someone to report him though, rather than just sit there and moan.
BTW-Suzi, that's not at you- I truly promise!- it's a comment for anyone sitting anyone in the Valley who see's this sort of rubbish and want's rid!
It was wrong when people (presumably Charlton "fans") threw bananas at Carlton Fairweather when we played Wimbledon at Selhurst 20 odd years ago and equally, with the "baggage" attached to it, a Nazi salute is as potentially offensive to most Germans as throwing bananas is offensive to black people in my opinion.
I can remember the anger, disappointment and condemnation expressed when di Canio made his Nazi salute. What would people be saying if Ballack had retaliated in kind to the guy in the crowd? Surely on that basis it's double standards for the crowd to make Nazi salutes to the players?
I think the stewards should intially have politely asked the bloke to stop since there is (regrettably) a history of that sort of goading of German players and teams. If he continued though, having politely been asked to stop, then it would have been fair enough to eject him.
However, no offence to Len Glover whose posts I really enjoy reading, but can we please, please, please stop labelling things we don't immediately agree with as "PC", turning it into a pejorative term and making the case that its somehow a bit wishy-washy to take a moral stand on certain points?
True, there are some over-the-top examples of political correctness around the place, but it should not be considered "PC" to think that public places should be free of racist and xenophobic behaviour, its not PC at all, its just demanding civilised behaviour for the greater good.
But that is not the same as making Nazi salutes at Germans, throwing bananas at black players or whatever other type of racist abuse people might engage in.
There is no reason to shove Nazism into the face of modern day Germans. Jeez, we don't exactly have a clean record ourselves in terms of slaughtering innocents abroad and we would not really want the people in our former "empire" to keep blaming us for the way we treated them in the 18th century, would we?
No offence taken and I agree with the sentiment you express.
I put the term PC in quotes simply because the thread seemed to have developed along the lines of those who disagreed with the salute being labelled PC.
In other words I was using the term in the context of this thread.