[cite]Posted By: nolly[/cite]no i know that mate i was actually saying cheers lol, i wonder if we had that vote how it would go?
Difficult to tell. TBH, I don't think most people here genuinely give a shit about it - there's always the Daily Mail hand-wringing brigade to rouse up the indignant little-Englanders, but there's just as much whipping up into a frenzy done by the left as well to balance it all out. In the end, I don't think a law would be passed because, for the most part in this country, people are still of the 'live and let live' view, when they're asked to make a decision like that.
[cite]Posted By: nolly[/cite]no i know that mate i was actually saying cheers lol, i wonder if we had that vote how it would go?
Difficult to tell. TBH, I don't think most people here genuinely give a shit about it - there's always the Daily Mail hand-wringing brigade to rouse up the indignant little-Englanders, but there's just as much whipping up into a frenzy done by the left as well to balance it all out. In the end, I don't think a law would be passed because, for the most part in this country, people are still of the 'live and let live' view, when they're asked to make a decision like that.
I think you are being overly generous there, Leroy.
If there were a vote on banning the Burka in the UK then I am very confident it would be passed quite comfortably, I think most people are horrified by them, I certainly am.
It's not a classic left-right issue either, the right hates them because of the fact that they are worn by Muslims who are the current whipping boys of the world and the left hates them because of their repression of women.
I don't mind Muslim women wearing the headscarf but anything that covers their full face is way, way too much.
Yes, Leroy - I mean caring about the poor victims that are forced to wear these tailor-made prisons makes you Daily Mail reader, obviously.
As far as 'live and let live' goes, what about the right of women to live their own lives without being told what to do by misogynist guardians of iron age desert moral codes?
This cultural/political question tends to make those on the left come down with a serious headache, so they prefer to ignore it and pretend the problem doesn't exist....sounds like you favour that approach as well!
There should be no ban on wearing burkas* in the UK, if you ban them then you have to ban all other religious items - crucifixs, yamulkes, nun's habits etc and fI'd rather parliament spent its time running the country than on things like this which generate contoversy. Besides that I'm in favour of living and let living.
We don't live in an islamic nation, and despite the fear mongering of the Daily Hate, we aren't going to become one, so no woman in the UK is forced to wear one by law therefore you must assume that they are making a personal choice and statement, similarly if a jewish boy wants to get circumcised that's up to him and his family or a nun to wear a habit.
* exceptions - going into banks or buildings where the full face must be view.
Regarding the murderer or whatever it was that he did who fled by wearing a burka, is this a true story, or a Daily Mail true story?
Even if true, it's not an argument against the burka, but against common sense, whatever customs official let him through without properly checking his identity needs to publically named and ridiculed for sheer incompetent stupidity and then forcibly prevented from breeding.
The whole point is that it is not a religious symbol, BFR....
Just an excuse to control women by misogynistic types who happen to worship a particular brand of sky pixie associated with a 'prophet' with a penchant for marrying six year old girls.....which may or may not be relevant.
[quote][cite]Posted By: bigstemarra[/cite]The whole point is that it is not a religious symbol, BFR....
Just an excuse to control women by misogynistic types who happen to worship a particular brand of sky pixie associated with a 'prophet' with a penchant for marrying six year old girls.....which may or may not be relevant.[/quote]
I think it is a religious symbol, unless non-Muslims have started wearing them*. The point is that by banning them you are legislating against personal choice. The wearing of a burka is a choice and despite the accusation that women are forced by their culture to wear them by banning them you are dealing with the effect, while ignoring the cause - which you correctly identify as an imaginary sky friend.
*I know Demis Roussos used to wear one, but he might be the exception to the rule.
[cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite]so no woman in the UK is forced to wear one by law therefore you must assume that they are making a personal choice and statemen
You can't be serious... Either that or you live in your own fairy tale world!
[quote][cite]Posted By: Stu of HU5[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite]so no woman in the UK is forced to wear one by law therefore you must assume that they are making a personal choice and statemen[/quote]
You can't be serious... Either that or you live in your own fairy tale world![/quote]
[quote][cite]Posted By: Stu of HU5[/cite]So because the law doesnt say they have to just because they do it's a personal choice.
Righto, so by the same logic, as domestic violence is illegal any woman who sticks around and takes her beatings is also making a personal choice?
Stupid logic from a stupid person.... Gotta love the internet....[/quote]
Try and understand - the wearing of a burka in the UK is not compulsory by law and that's despite any number of inane Daily Mail/Melanie Philips scare stories, therefore it's personal choice, as is nuns wearing habits, xtians wearing crosses, jews yamulkes etc, I accept that there is peer pressure at work in these cases, but as there is no legal sanction forcing people to wear these items then by definition it is personal choice, that or magical voices telling them how to get dressed in the morning. Banning burkas therefore is legislating against personal choice, and it is just as much nonsense to ban the wearing of pointy hats.
As for your tenuous link to domestic violence, you are drifting into the realms of reductio ad absurdum. That argument, as I'm sure you are aware, simply isn't worth discussing.
[cite]Posted By: Stu of HU5[/cite]So because the law doesnt say they have to just because they do it's a personal choice.
Righto, so by the same logic, as domestic violence is illegal any woman who sticks around and takes her beatings is also making a personal choice?
Stupid logic from a stupid person.... Gotta love the internet....
Try and understand - the wearing of a burka in the UK is not compulsory by law and that's despite any number of inane Daily Mail/Melanie Philips scare stories, therefore it's personal choice, as is nuns wearing habits, xtians wearing crosses, jews yamulkes etc, I accept that there is peer pressure at work in these cases, but as there is no legal sanction forcing people to wear these items then by definition it is personal choice, that or magical voices telling them how to get dressed in the morning. Banning burkas therefore is legislating against personal choice, and it is just as much nonsense to ban the wearing of pointy hats.
As for your tenuous link to domestic violence, you are drifting into the realms of reductio ad absurdum. That argument, as I'm sure you are aware, simply isn't worth discussing.
You really have lost the plot and need to read the thread properly, then post.
[cite]Posted By: Stu of HU5[/cite]So because the law doesnt say they have to just because they do it's a personal choice.
Righto, so by the same logic, as domestic violence is illegal any woman who sticks around and takes her beatings is also making a personal choice?
Stupid logic from a stupid person.... Gotta love the internet....
Try and understand - the wearing of a burka in the UK is not compulsory by law and that's despite any number of inane Daily Mail/Melanie Philips scare stories, therefore it's personal choice, as is nuns wearing habits, xtians wearing crosses, jews yamulkes etc, I accept that there is peer pressure at work in these cases, but as there is no legal sanction forcing people to wear these items then by definition it is personal choice, that or magical voices telling them how to get dressed in the morning. Banning burkas therefore is legislating against personal choice, and it is just as much nonsense to ban the wearing of pointy hats.
As for your tenuous link to domestic violence, you are drifting into the realms of reductio ad absurdum. That argument, as I'm sure you are aware, simply isn't worth discussing.
[cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite]The point is that by banning them you are legislating against personal choice.
All laws are legislating against personal choice (although a lot of people see their personal choice somehow as effects of a variety of social issues). Be it the choice to drive your car faster than the speed limit, piss in the street, take other peoples property, commit acts of violence etc. I don't understand the relevance.
[quote][cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: Stu of HU5[/cite]So because the law doesnt say they have to just because they do it's a personal choice.
Righto, so by the same logic, as domestic violence is illegal any woman who sticks around and takes her beatings is also making a personal choice?
Stupid logic from a stupid person.... Gotta love the internet....[/quote]
Try and understand - the wearing of a burka in the UK is not compulsory by law and that's despite any number of inane Daily Mail/Melanie Philips scare stories, therefore it's personal choice, as is nuns wearing habits, xtians wearing crosses, jews yamulkes etc, I accept that there is peer pressure at work in these cases, but as there is no legal sanction forcing people to wear these items then by definition it is personal choice, that or magical voices telling them how to get dressed in the morning. Banning burkas therefore is legislating against personal choice, and it is just as much nonsense to ban the wearing of pointy hats.
As for your tenuous link to domestic violence, you are drifting into the realms of reductio ad absurdum. That argument, as I'm sure you are aware, simply isn't worth discussing.[/quote]
You are quite correct on this. There is actually a lot of evidence to suggest that the wearing of burkhas in England was very rapidly dying out until questions started to be raised about them being banned. This turned them from being seen as a rather old-fashioned oddity into a statement of 'belonging' to a perceived under fire minority.
Just like how punks used to dress - what would be the point in getting up in all that gear if it did not provoke a response?
Ironically, the voices that have called for them to be banned have actually made it much more likely that women will choose to wear one.
[quote][cite]Posted By: former addick[/cite]I remember a time (twas 2003) when I got into a fight with this Muslim guy. You know the type, knock down, drag em out, noone backing down etc. Plenty of bloodshed (him AND me). The one thing I noticed after the fight was he was bleeding....and it was red blood!?!?!? A confidante took me aside later on and told me.... well he used some colourful language....amongst that he told me this guy was HUMAN!!!! No different to you and me. It changed my outlook and I feel the same about Burkas! Ladies who wear them.....they're human.[/quote]
[cite]Posted By: former addick[/cite]I remember a time (twas 2003) when I got into a fight with this Muslim guy.
You know the type, knock down, drag em out, noone backing down etc. Plenty
of bloodshed (him AND me). The one thing I noticed after the fight was he was
bleeding....and it was red blood!?!?!? A confidante took me aside later on and told me....
well he used some colourful language....amongst that he told me this guy was HUMAN!!!!
No different to you and me. It changed my outlook and I feel the same about Burkas! Ladies
who wear them.....they're human.
So, there's only one way to settle this.....FIIIIIIIGHT!!!!!!
Comments
I think you are being overly generous there, Leroy.
If there were a vote on banning the Burka in the UK then I am very confident it would be passed quite comfortably, I think most people are horrified by them, I certainly am.
It's not a classic left-right issue either, the right hates them because of the fact that they are worn by Muslims who are the current whipping boys of the world and the left hates them because of their repression of women.
I don't mind Muslim women wearing the headscarf but anything that covers their full face is way, way too much.
As far as 'live and let live' goes, what about the right of women to live their own lives without being told what to do by misogynist guardians of iron age desert moral codes?
This cultural/political question tends to make those on the left come down with a serious headache, so they prefer to ignore it and pretend the problem doesn't exist....sounds like you favour that approach as well!
We don't live in an islamic nation, and despite the fear mongering of the Daily Hate, we aren't going to become one, so no woman in the UK is forced to wear one by law therefore you must assume that they are making a personal choice and statement, similarly if a jewish boy wants to get circumcised that's up to him and his family or a nun to wear a habit.
* exceptions - going into banks or buildings where the full face must be view.
Regarding the murderer or whatever it was that he did who fled by wearing a burka, is this a true story, or a Daily Mail true story?
Even if true, it's not an argument against the burka, but against common sense, whatever customs official let him through without properly checking his identity needs to publically named and ridiculed for sheer incompetent stupidity and then forcibly prevented from breeding.
Just an excuse to control women by misogynistic types who happen to worship a particular brand of sky pixie associated with a 'prophet' with a penchant for marrying six year old girls.....which may or may not be relevant.
Just an excuse to control women by misogynistic types who happen to worship a particular brand of sky pixie associated with a 'prophet' with a penchant for marrying six year old girls.....which may or may not be relevant.[/quote]
I think it is a religious symbol, unless non-Muslims have started wearing them*. The point is that by banning them you are legislating against personal choice. The wearing of a burka is a choice and despite the accusation that women are forced by their culture to wear them by banning them you are dealing with the effect, while ignoring the cause - which you correctly identify as an imaginary sky friend.
*I know Demis Roussos used to wear one, but he might be the exception to the rule.
Maybe it was started by a greengrocer?
Yeah, and maybe the burka owns a shop. Good call.
You can't be serious... Either that or you live in your own fairy tale world!
You can't be serious... Either that or you live in your own fairy tale world![/quote]
They are not forced by law.
Learn to read properly...
Righto, so by the same logic, as domestic violence is illegal any woman who sticks around and takes her beatings is also making a personal choice?
Stupid logic from a stupid person.... Gotta love the internet....
Righto, so by the same logic, as domestic violence is illegal any woman who sticks around and takes her beatings is also making a personal choice?
Stupid logic from a stupid person.... Gotta love the internet....[/quote]
Try and understand - the wearing of a burka in the UK is not compulsory by law and that's despite any number of inane Daily Mail/Melanie Philips scare stories, therefore it's personal choice, as is nuns wearing habits, xtians wearing crosses, jews yamulkes etc, I accept that there is peer pressure at work in these cases, but as there is no legal sanction forcing people to wear these items then by definition it is personal choice, that or magical voices telling them how to get dressed in the morning. Banning burkas therefore is legislating against personal choice, and it is just as much nonsense to ban the wearing of pointy hats.
As for your tenuous link to domestic violence, you are drifting into the realms of reductio ad absurdum. That argument, as I'm sure you are aware, simply isn't worth discussing.
Wow.... just wow.
This should explain all you need to know.
Burka argument
Made me chuckle...
Righto, so by the same logic, as domestic violence is illegal any woman who sticks around and takes her beatings is also making a personal choice?
Stupid logic from a stupid person.... Gotta love the internet....[/quote]
Try and understand - the wearing of a burka in the UK is not compulsory by law and that's despite any number of inane Daily Mail/Melanie Philips scare stories, therefore it's personal choice, as is nuns wearing habits, xtians wearing crosses, jews yamulkes etc, I accept that there is peer pressure at work in these cases, but as there is no legal sanction forcing people to wear these items then by definition it is personal choice, that or magical voices telling them how to get dressed in the morning. Banning burkas therefore is legislating against personal choice, and it is just as much nonsense to ban the wearing of pointy hats.
As for your tenuous link to domestic violence, you are drifting into the realms of reductio ad absurdum. That argument, as I'm sure you are aware, simply isn't worth discussing.[/quote]
You are quite correct on this. There is actually a lot of evidence to suggest that the wearing of burkhas in England was very rapidly dying out until questions started to be raised about them being banned. This turned them from being seen as a rather old-fashioned oddity into a statement of 'belonging' to a perceived under fire minority.
Just like how punks used to dress - what would be the point in getting up in all that gear if it did not provoke a response?
Ironically, the voices that have called for them to be banned have actually made it much more likely that women will choose to wear one.
You know the type, knock down, drag em out, noone backing down etc. Plenty
of bloodshed (him AND me). The one thing I noticed after the fight was he was
bleeding....and it was red blood!?!?!? A confidante took me aside later on and told me....
well he used some colourful language....amongst that he told me this guy was HUMAN!!!!
No different to you and me. It changed my outlook and I feel the same about Burkas! Ladies
who wear them.....they're human.[/quote]
Wow now that is a shock NOT zzzzzzzzzzz