Mixed feelings. On the one hand I do not like them, they are for me a symbol of the oppression of women by a backward religion. They are a barrier to communication and a cause of mistrust. On the other hand, if people genuinely want to wear them, I think that should be their business not the state's. I don't think they've banned sunglasses yet and they are equally a barrier to communication.
Don't agree with them one bit. I'm always getting pulled to the side at the airport and getting rubbed up by some bloke. Never seen someone in a burka at the airport but can anyone tell me what happens when they get to security.
Don't agree with them one bit. I'm always getting pulled to the side at the airport and getting rubbed up by some bloke. Never seen someone in a burka at the airport but can anyone tell me what happens when they get to security.
They get searched by a woman if it's deemed necessary.
religion is nonsense and burkas are nonsense and if it makes identification easier, i'm all for it. No bigger loss of your human rights and liberty than being blown up.
[cite]Posted By: Bexley Dan[/cite]religion is nonsense and burkas are nonsense and if it makes identification easier, i'm all for it. No bigger loss of your human rights and liberty than being blown up.
There's the dichotomy. On the one hand you call all religion 'nonsense' and advocate a ban on adherents of one particular sect of one particular religion following one particular passage of one particular religious text because it offends you. On the other hand you mention 'human rights'. You can't have tolerance without tolerating things that you don't agree with. I find nothing wrong with women wearing the burka per se - though it personally disgusts me that they are forced to do so (all the bollocks about them 'choosing' to wear it is laughable). However, it isn't my right to tell people what to believe in, and it isn't my right to inflict my (non)-religious views on others. Nasty bit of political grandstanding by a failed politician.
I am not against the religion but what annoys me is in this Country everyone has issues with teens wearing hoodies in stores and public places. You could say exactly the same with Burka's but that is offensive to Islam. The fact is it's ok for Muslim to cover themselves when we have to uncover ourselves. Not really fair is it?
I don't agree with it at all and everyone should go by the rules no matter what religion you are but in this Country we are used to European laws and we should stick by it and not have an islamic law.
Even the French Old Bill say they wont be enforcing it (1) some areas are to tough (how very French) for them to enforce it and (2) what happens it its a minted Saudi Princess ?
Dont like it at all, but wouldnt give Islamic radicals the satisfaction of spouting more bile and sh*t about my Country by banning it. Id like to see that Choudry fella dressed in one tho as i poor petrol over him and whisper "this is for the popies" as i light the match !!
Part of being British is the tolernace of other religions isnt it ? thats tolerance of OUR religion and theirs.
France are standing up for secular democracy and the right to protect their society from becoming fragmented by people with imaginary friends.
This is a debate that I know inside out because of where I live and work, where they are very popular (at least with the men, if you get my drift) and there are many sides to it. I feel uncomfortable with the state telling people what not to wear, but then again if you were to walk down the street naked you would be arrested, so we have to have a set of rules that, as a society, we all agree with. Amongst the issues involved are:
1. To kick off - it is not a religious symbol, but a cultural one (imported into the middle east via the Indian Mughal empire); so the defence of freedom of religion is a non-starter. Unfortunately, the two have become synonynous. 2. People who wear them have confided in me that they only do so because they are forced to (usually there is a real fear of violence involved) - it strikes me as simply a method for patriarchal communities to control their womenfolk by sad little men that get to feel tough by pushing women about 3. They prevent effective communication, often to the point of farce; leaving bemusement and bewilderment in their wake as a result. 4. It is massively divisive and does not promote an integrated society - not only that, most people you speak to find them instinctively repellant and given that in our culture to not show your face when communicating is rude - many indigenous people simply interpret them as saying 'screw you, your country and your culture' either rightly or wrongly. 5. We have had cases of ricketts where I work due to them - the simple solution is not to wear them (which would solve the vitamin deficiency problem), but this is never suggested as it might be interpreted as being culturally insensitive....this strikes me as madness; the most important thing is someone's health, surely? 6. They are supposedly to stop men raping them as they can't control themselves, apparently. Once again, a big F off to their host country and all its inhabitants as we are all rapist scum, obviously. 7. They hide bruises and other injuries very well (unfortunately, I have personal experience of this) this may or may not be coincidental, but given the frightening domestic violence problem within that community it seems strangely convenient in some cases 8. The security aspect (why can't you wear a crash-hat in a bank, yet the staff are too terrified to ask someone to remove a veil? Surely one rule for all?) which is the whole point that the legislation now exists in Belgium and France. 9. When it gets very hot, they must be a nightmare to wear - especially when it is often customary for the husband to walk ten paces in front with a nice breezy cotton top on whilst the Mrs drags herself behind dressed in a tent carrying heavy shopping, even though it is nearly 40 degrees celsius in the shade....
Sorry for going on. There are more issues, but whenever they find someone who genuinely seems to want to wear one (often due to their own insecurity) they are trotted out as an example of female empowerment which I find a sick joke having known women who are beaten and abused, virtual prisoners in their own homes and terrified for their very lives as they are forbidden not only from talking to men, but anyone who is not a muslim. It is not an item of clothing, it is a mobile prison.
This is not a women's problem - the men are the problem, believe me. Tolerating Burkas simply means we tolerate oppression before our very eyes, as they give us an easy excuse to look the other way because we as a society lack the moral courage to stand up for what is right due to having destroyed and denigrated our own value system by the twisted application of cultural relativism.
France aren't afraid to do what is right and they have my admiration for it (now that doesn't happen often...)
Sorry again, but you did ask and this issue shows how screwed up as a country we have become. Emily Pankhurst would be speechless.
[cite]Posted By: DiscoCAFC[/cite]I am not against the religion but what annoys me is in this Country everyone has issues with teens wearing hoodies in stores and public places. You could say exactly the same with Burka's but that is offensive to Islam. The fact is it's ok for Muslim to cover themselves when we have to uncover ourselves. Not really fair is it?
I don't agree with it at all and everyone should go by the rules no matter what religion you are but in this Country we are used to European laws and we should stick by it and not have an islamic law.
We do stick by it. That's why the Burka isn't banned. I think you'll find it's the French that have enacted this law - not 'the Europeans'. And - last I looked - wearing hoodies wasn't banned either? Bit of an odd post all round, really.
[cite]Posted By: DiscoCAFC[/cite]I am not against the religion but what annoys me is in this Country everyone has issues with teens wearing hoodies in stores and public places. You could say exactly the same with Burka's but that is offensive to Islam. The fact is it's ok for Muslim to cover themselves when we have to uncover ourselves. Not really fair is it?
I don't agree with it at all and everyone should go by the rules no matter what religion you are but in this Country we are used to European laws and we should stick by it and not have an islamic law.
We do stick by it. That's why the Burka isn't banned. I think you'll find it's the French that have enacted this law - not 'the Europeans'. And - last I looked - wearing hoodies wasn't banned either? Bit of an odd post all round, really.
If you read my post properly I did not mention wearing hoodies is banned and I did not mention we don't stick to the european law. The fact is people will politely ask a hoodie to take remove the hood from his head but it's an offensive to Islam to be asked to get the veil removed.
[cite]Posted By: Bexley Dan[/cite]religion is nonsense and burkas are nonsense and if it makes identification easier, i'm all for it. No bigger loss of your human rights and liberty than being blown up.
There's the dichotomy. On the one hand you call all religion 'nonsense' and advocate a ban on adherents of one particular sect of one particular religion following one particular passage of one particular religious text because it offends you. On the other hand you mention 'human rights'. You can't have tolerance without tolerating things that you don't agree with. I find nothing wrong with women wearing the burka per se - though it personally disgusts me that they are forced to do so (all the bollocks about them 'choosing' to wear it is laughable). However, it isn't my right to tell people what to believe in, and it isn't my right to inflict my (non)-religious views on others. Nasty bit of political grandstanding by a failed politician.
no - i was asked what my opinion on it is and if the authorities that run a country feel it would assist against terror not to walk around with your head covered up, then i support that - for any other reason, i couldn't give a toss - if some deluded muppet wants to make themselves look ridiculous they can, but if people that know far more about terrorist risks and the like decide it's not helping then they should bloody well tow the line or piss off - that's not a racist thing, it's a practical thing and what i'm saying about civil liberties and rights is the argument against banning such things so i think you've got your wires crossed.
[cite]Posted By: bigstemarra[/cite]France are standing up for secular democracy and the right to protect their society from becoming fragmented by people with imaginary friends.
This is a debate that I know inside out because of where I live and work, where they are very popular (at least with the men, if you get my drift) and there are many sides to it. I feel uncomfortable with the state telling people what not to wear, but then again if you were to walk down the street naked you would be arrested, so we have to have a set of rules that, as a society, we all agree with. Amongst the issues involved are:
1. To kick off - it is not a religious symbol, but a cultural one (imported into the middle east via the Indian Mughal empire); so the defence of freedom of religion is a non-starter. Unfortunately, the two have become synonynous.
2. People who wear them have confided in me that they only do so because they are forced to (usually there is a real fear of violence involved) - it strikes me as simply a method for patriarchal communities to control their womenfolk by sad little men that get to feel tough by pushing women about
3. They prevent effective communication, often to the point of farce; leaving bemusement and bewilderment in their wake as a result.
4. It is massively divisive and does not promote an integrated society - not only that, most people you speak to find them instinctively repellant and given that in our culture to not show your face when communicating is rude - many indigenous people simply interpret them as saying 'screw you, your country and your culture' either rightly or wrongly.
5. We have had cases of ricketts where I work due to them - the simple solution is not to wear them (which would solve the vitamin deficiency problem), but this is never suggested as it might be interpreted as being culturally insensitive....this strikes me as madness; the most important thing is someone's health, surely?
6. They are supposedly to stop men raping them as they can't control themselves, apparently. Once again, a big F off to their host country and all its inhabitants as we are all rapist scum, obviously.
7. They hide bruises and other injuries very well (unfortunately, I have personal experience of this) this may or may not be coincidental, but given the frightening domestic violence problem within that community it seems strangely convenient in some cases
8. The security aspect (why can't you wear a crash-hat in a bank, yet the staff are too terrified to ask someone to remove a veil? Surely one rule for all?) which is the whole point that the legislation now exists in Belgium and France.
9. When it gets very hot, they must be a nightmare to wear - especially when it is often customary for the husband to walk ten paces in front with a nice breezy cotton top on whilst the Mrs drags herself behind dressed in a tent carrying heavy shopping, even though it is nearly 40 degrees celsius in the shade....
Sorry for going on. There are more issues, but whenever they find someone who genuinely seems to want to wear one (often due to their own insecurity) they are trotted out as an example of female empowerment which I find a sick joke having known women who are beaten and abused, virtual prisoners in their own homes and terrified for their very lives as they are forbidden not only from talking to men, but anyone who is not a muslim. It is not an item of clothing, it is a mobile prison.
This is not a women's problem - the men are the problem, believe me. Tolerating Burkas simply means we tolerate oppression before our very eyes, as they give us an easy excuse to look the other way because we as a society lack the moral courage to stand up for what is right due to having destroyed and denigrated our own value system by the twisted application of cultural relativism.
France aren't afraid to do what is right and they have my admiration for it (now that doesn't happen often...)
Sorry again, but you did ask and this issue shows how screwed up as a country we have become. Emily Pankhurst would be speechless.
Very enlightening post. Thank you. In particular I had never thought of their bruise-hiding ability/purpose before.
I think on balance that I would support the French law if I thought it would mean that these oppressed women would say, "that's it, it's illegal, I ain't putting up with this anymore, bollux to the brurka"! Sadly, I feel that the reality for many women will be that their husbands simply refuse to let them out of the house anymore.
Comments
I give up. What is it?
ha ha
Don't agree with them one bit. I'm always getting pulled to the side at the airport and getting rubbed up by some bloke. Never seen someone in a burka at the airport but can anyone tell me what happens when they get to security.
And the buggars have the cheek to have 6 bloody wives!
Well spotted that man
Indeed we are British and telling people what to wear is, well not British even when it is repugnant
I don't agree with it at all and everyone should go by the rules no matter what religion you are but in this Country we are used to European laws and we should stick by it and not have an islamic law.
Dont like it at all, but wouldnt give Islamic radicals the satisfaction of spouting more bile and sh*t about my Country by banning it. Id like to see that Choudry fella dressed in one tho as i poor petrol over him and whisper "this is for the popies" as i light the match !!
Part of being British is the tolernace of other religions isnt it ? thats tolerance of OUR religion and theirs.
This is a debate that I know inside out because of where I live and work, where they are very popular (at least with the men, if you get my drift) and there are many sides to it. I feel uncomfortable with the state telling people what not to wear, but then again if you were to walk down the street naked you would be arrested, so we have to have a set of rules that, as a society, we all agree with. Amongst the issues involved are:
1. To kick off - it is not a religious symbol, but a cultural one (imported into the middle east via the Indian Mughal empire); so the defence of freedom of religion is a non-starter. Unfortunately, the two have become synonynous.
2. People who wear them have confided in me that they only do so because they are forced to (usually there is a real fear of violence involved) - it strikes me as simply a method for patriarchal communities to control their womenfolk by sad little men that get to feel tough by pushing women about
3. They prevent effective communication, often to the point of farce; leaving bemusement and bewilderment in their wake as a result.
4. It is massively divisive and does not promote an integrated society - not only that, most people you speak to find them instinctively repellant and given that in our culture to not show your face when communicating is rude - many indigenous people simply interpret them as saying 'screw you, your country and your culture' either rightly or wrongly.
5. We have had cases of ricketts where I work due to them - the simple solution is not to wear them (which would solve the vitamin deficiency problem), but this is never suggested as it might be interpreted as being culturally insensitive....this strikes me as madness; the most important thing is someone's health, surely?
6. They are supposedly to stop men raping them as they can't control themselves, apparently. Once again, a big F off to their host country and all its inhabitants as we are all rapist scum, obviously.
7. They hide bruises and other injuries very well (unfortunately, I have personal experience of this) this may or may not be coincidental, but given the frightening domestic violence problem within that community it seems strangely convenient in some cases
8. The security aspect (why can't you wear a crash-hat in a bank, yet the staff are too terrified to ask someone to remove a veil? Surely one rule for all?) which is the whole point that the legislation now exists in Belgium and France.
9. When it gets very hot, they must be a nightmare to wear - especially when it is often customary for the husband to walk ten paces in front with a nice breezy cotton top on whilst the Mrs drags herself behind dressed in a tent carrying heavy shopping, even though it is nearly 40 degrees celsius in the shade....
Sorry for going on. There are more issues, but whenever they find someone who genuinely seems to want to wear one (often due to their own insecurity) they are trotted out as an example of female empowerment which I find a sick joke having known women who are beaten and abused, virtual prisoners in their own homes and terrified for their very lives as they are forbidden not only from talking to men, but anyone who is not a muslim. It is not an item of clothing, it is a mobile prison.
This is not a women's problem - the men are the problem, believe me. Tolerating Burkas simply means we tolerate oppression before our very eyes, as they give us an easy excuse to look the other way because we as a society lack the moral courage to stand up for what is right due to having destroyed and denigrated our own value system by the twisted application of cultural relativism.
France aren't afraid to do what is right and they have my admiration for it (now that doesn't happen often...)
Sorry again, but you did ask and this issue shows how screwed up as a country we have become. Emily Pankhurst would be speechless.
If you read my post properly I did not mention wearing hoodies is banned and I did not mention we don't stick to the european law. The fact is people will politely ask a hoodie to take remove the hood from his head but it's an offensive to Islam to be asked to get the veil removed.
no - i was asked what my opinion on it is and if the authorities that run a country feel it would assist against terror not to walk around with your head covered up, then i support that - for any other reason, i couldn't give a toss - if some deluded muppet wants to make themselves look ridiculous they can, but if people that know far more about terrorist risks and the like decide it's not helping then they should bloody well tow the line or piss off - that's not a racist thing, it's a practical thing and what i'm saying about civil liberties and rights is the argument against banning such things so i think you've got your wires crossed.
I think on balance that I would support the French law if I thought it would mean that these oppressed women would say, "that's it, it's illegal, I ain't putting up with this anymore, bollux to the brurka"! Sadly, I feel that the reality for many women will be that their husbands simply refuse to let them out of the house anymore.