Michael Jackson , this is it
Comments
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Your defence of him illustrates how he got away with it.cafcfan1990 said:
Why do you always have to be ignorant when others don't share your view?ValleyGary said:
Na it can’t be. Sony actually sent mini spies in the form of 7 year old boys to steal Elvis and Beatles rights.Stu_of_Kunming said:
Simple explanation, he was a nonce.i_b_b_o_r_g said:Manicmania said - I'll have a go. He owned the rights to all of Elvis and the Beatles songs and he was paranoid that someone was trying to have him killed. He stated this to people close to him on multiple occasions. Was it a cover for other stuff? I don't know but it is a fact that soon after he died Sony bought those rights back fairly swiftly.
I said - Explain the alarmed corridors while having a young boy in his bedroom for days on end and a box of erotic / porn images with both his and the boy's fingerprints on
ffs.
Manicmania has a point, MJ was paranoid and did believe people were trying to kill him.
Of all the reasons pointing to MJ's guilt, I don't think an alarmed corridor is one of too much importance.
Presumably, you would also have done the same as the parents and let your young son sleep with him in a locked room.
Whilst you let him buy you a house, a car etc.
Unbelievable quite frankly.1 -
That's bang out of order to be honest mate. You don't know fuck all about me. I haven't got kids but I do care for my little sister and no way would I let her be subject to any of that.Covered End said:
Your defence of him illustrates how he got away with it.cafcfan1990 said:
Why do you always have to be ignorant when others don't share your view?ValleyGary said:
Na it can’t be. Sony actually sent mini spies in the form of 7 year old boys to steal Elvis and Beatles rights.Stu_of_Kunming said:
Simple explanation, he was a nonce.i_b_b_o_r_g said:Manicmania said - I'll have a go. He owned the rights to all of Elvis and the Beatles songs and he was paranoid that someone was trying to have him killed. He stated this to people close to him on multiple occasions. Was it a cover for other stuff? I don't know but it is a fact that soon after he died Sony bought those rights back fairly swiftly.
I said - Explain the alarmed corridors while having a young boy in his bedroom for days on end and a box of erotic / porn images with both his and the boy's fingerprints on
ffs.
Manicmania has a point, MJ was paranoid and did believe people were trying to kill him.
Of all the reasons pointing to MJ's guilt, I don't think an alarmed corridor is one of too much importance.
Presumably, you would also have done the same as the parents and let your young son sleep with him in a locked room.
Whilst you let him buy you a house, a car etc.
Unbelievable quite frankly.
Despite me not being 100% convinced by how far MJ went, I have repeatedly said what he did was wrong and that the parents should be partly to blame. So how does that constitute me being like them? Wanker.3 -
Exactly. If you just told someone that Duchatalet/Miere stuck a sofa at the corner of the pitch and said that made them entirely unsuitable people to run a football club, they would indeed think it an overreaction. If you then gave them an afternoon's worth of other evidence, as we all could...i_b_b_o_r_g said:
The alarmed corridor isnt just something thrown into this argument. Members of MJ's staff (housekeeper and security) actual said that that was the reason it had them alarmed. The fact he did, by itself, isnt that worrying, but when you add this detail to the other facts, it paints a rather different picture imocafcfan1990 said:
Why do you always have to be ignorant when others don't share your view?ValleyGary said:
Na it can’t be. Sony actually sent mini spies in the form of 7 year old boys to steal Elvis and Beatles rights.Stu_of_Kunming said:
Simple explanation, he was a nonce.i_b_b_o_r_g said:Manicmania said - I'll have a go. He owned the rights to all of Elvis and the Beatles songs and he was paranoid that someone was trying to have him killed. He stated this to people close to him on multiple occasions. Was it a cover for other stuff? I don't know but it is a fact that soon after he died Sony bought those rights back fairly swiftly.
I said - Explain the alarmed corridors while having a young boy in his bedroom for days on end and a box of erotic / porn images with both his and the boy's fingerprints on
ffs.
Manicmania has a point, MJ was paranoid and did believe people were trying to kill him.
Of all the reasons pointing to MJ's guilt, I don't think an alarmed corridor is one of too much importance.
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Subject to any of what ?cafcfan1990 said:
That's bang out of order to be honest mate. You don't know fuck all about me. I haven't got kids but I do care for my little sister and no way would I let her be subject to any of that.Covered End said:
Your defence of him illustrates how he got away with it.cafcfan1990 said:
Why do you always have to be ignorant when others don't share your view?ValleyGary said:
Na it can’t be. Sony actually sent mini spies in the form of 7 year old boys to steal Elvis and Beatles rights.Stu_of_Kunming said:
Simple explanation, he was a nonce.i_b_b_o_r_g said:Manicmania said - I'll have a go. He owned the rights to all of Elvis and the Beatles songs and he was paranoid that someone was trying to have him killed. He stated this to people close to him on multiple occasions. Was it a cover for other stuff? I don't know but it is a fact that soon after he died Sony bought those rights back fairly swiftly.
I said - Explain the alarmed corridors while having a young boy in his bedroom for days on end and a box of erotic / porn images with both his and the boy's fingerprints on
ffs.
Manicmania has a point, MJ was paranoid and did believe people were trying to kill him.
Of all the reasons pointing to MJ's guilt, I don't think an alarmed corridor is one of too much importance.
Presumably, you would also have done the same as the parents and let your young son sleep with him in a locked room.
Whilst you let him buy you a house, a car etc.
Unbelievable quite frankly.
Despite me not being 100% convinced by how far MJ went, I have repeatedly said what he did was wrong and that the parents should be partly to blame. So how does that constitute me being like them? Wanker.
Sorry, I thought you were saying he's innocent.
Sorry, I didn't read your earlier posts.
So you're saying it's ok that MJ went so far, as long as he didn't go too far ?
How far is acceptable ?
Anyway, at least we know you wouldn't let your sister be locked up in a room with him for 30 days.0 -
He's definitely not innocent. What he did to the kids was abuse, the only question is how far it went.Covered End said:
Subject to any of what ?cafcfan1990 said:
That's bang out of order to be honest mate. You don't know fuck all about me. I haven't got kids but I do care for my little sister and no way would I let her be subject to any of that.Covered End said:
Your defence of him illustrates how he got away with it.cafcfan1990 said:
Why do you always have to be ignorant when others don't share your view?ValleyGary said:
Na it can’t be. Sony actually sent mini spies in the form of 7 year old boys to steal Elvis and Beatles rights.Stu_of_Kunming said:
Simple explanation, he was a nonce.i_b_b_o_r_g said:Manicmania said - I'll have a go. He owned the rights to all of Elvis and the Beatles songs and he was paranoid that someone was trying to have him killed. He stated this to people close to him on multiple occasions. Was it a cover for other stuff? I don't know but it is a fact that soon after he died Sony bought those rights back fairly swiftly.
I said - Explain the alarmed corridors while having a young boy in his bedroom for days on end and a box of erotic / porn images with both his and the boy's fingerprints on
ffs.
Manicmania has a point, MJ was paranoid and did believe people were trying to kill him.
Of all the reasons pointing to MJ's guilt, I don't think an alarmed corridor is one of too much importance.
Presumably, you would also have done the same as the parents and let your young son sleep with him in a locked room.
Whilst you let him buy you a house, a car etc.
Unbelievable quite frankly.
Despite me not being 100% convinced by how far MJ went, I have repeatedly said what he did was wrong and that the parents should be partly to blame. So how does that constitute me being like them? Wanker.
Sorry, I thought you were saying he's innocent.
Sorry, I didn't read your earlier posts.
So you're saying it's ok that MJ went so far, as long as he didn't go too far ?
How far is acceptable ?
Anyway, at least we know you wouldn't let your sister be locked up in a room with him for 30 days.
Of course I am not saying it was ok, if I was in the parents position I wouldn't have any of it happen. Then we wouldn't have to dispute how far it went would we?
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Children fingerprints on his child porn collection alone seems sufficient evidence to me.cafcfan1990 said:
He's definitely not innocent. What he did to the kids was abuse, the only question is how far it went.Covered End said:
Subject to any of what ?cafcfan1990 said:
That's bang out of order to be honest mate. You don't know fuck all about me. I haven't got kids but I do care for my little sister and no way would I let her be subject to any of that.Covered End said:
Your defence of him illustrates how he got away with it.cafcfan1990 said:
Why do you always have to be ignorant when others don't share your view?ValleyGary said:
Na it can’t be. Sony actually sent mini spies in the form of 7 year old boys to steal Elvis and Beatles rights.Stu_of_Kunming said:
Simple explanation, he was a nonce.i_b_b_o_r_g said:Manicmania said - I'll have a go. He owned the rights to all of Elvis and the Beatles songs and he was paranoid that someone was trying to have him killed. He stated this to people close to him on multiple occasions. Was it a cover for other stuff? I don't know but it is a fact that soon after he died Sony bought those rights back fairly swiftly.
I said - Explain the alarmed corridors while having a young boy in his bedroom for days on end and a box of erotic / porn images with both his and the boy's fingerprints on
ffs.
Manicmania has a point, MJ was paranoid and did believe people were trying to kill him.
Of all the reasons pointing to MJ's guilt, I don't think an alarmed corridor is one of too much importance.
Presumably, you would also have done the same as the parents and let your young son sleep with him in a locked room.
Whilst you let him buy you a house, a car etc.
Unbelievable quite frankly.
Despite me not being 100% convinced by how far MJ went, I have repeatedly said what he did was wrong and that the parents should be partly to blame. So how does that constitute me being like them? Wanker.
Sorry, I thought you were saying he's innocent.
Sorry, I didn't read your earlier posts.
So you're saying it's ok that MJ went so far, as long as he didn't go too far ?
How far is acceptable ?
Anyway, at least we know you wouldn't let your sister be locked up in a room with him for 30 days.
Of course I am not saying it was ok, if I was in the parents position I wouldn't have any of it happen. Then we wouldn't have to dispute how far it went would we?0 -
And I respect your opinion, you're hardly alone in thinking he is completely guilty of everything he is accused of.Covered End said:
Children fingerprints on his child porn collection alone seems sufficient evidence to me.cafcfan1990 said:
He's definitely not innocent. What he did to the kids was abuse, the only question is how far it went.Covered End said:
Subject to any of what ?cafcfan1990 said:
That's bang out of order to be honest mate. You don't know fuck all about me. I haven't got kids but I do care for my little sister and no way would I let her be subject to any of that.Covered End said:
Your defence of him illustrates how he got away with it.cafcfan1990 said:
Why do you always have to be ignorant when others don't share your view?ValleyGary said:
Na it can’t be. Sony actually sent mini spies in the form of 7 year old boys to steal Elvis and Beatles rights.Stu_of_Kunming said:
Simple explanation, he was a nonce.i_b_b_o_r_g said:Manicmania said - I'll have a go. He owned the rights to all of Elvis and the Beatles songs and he was paranoid that someone was trying to have him killed. He stated this to people close to him on multiple occasions. Was it a cover for other stuff? I don't know but it is a fact that soon after he died Sony bought those rights back fairly swiftly.
I said - Explain the alarmed corridors while having a young boy in his bedroom for days on end and a box of erotic / porn images with both his and the boy's fingerprints on
ffs.
Manicmania has a point, MJ was paranoid and did believe people were trying to kill him.
Of all the reasons pointing to MJ's guilt, I don't think an alarmed corridor is one of too much importance.
Presumably, you would also have done the same as the parents and let your young son sleep with him in a locked room.
Whilst you let him buy you a house, a car etc.
Unbelievable quite frankly.
Despite me not being 100% convinced by how far MJ went, I have repeatedly said what he did was wrong and that the parents should be partly to blame. So how does that constitute me being like them? Wanker.
Sorry, I thought you were saying he's innocent.
Sorry, I didn't read your earlier posts.
So you're saying it's ok that MJ went so far, as long as he didn't go too far ?
How far is acceptable ?
Anyway, at least we know you wouldn't let your sister be locked up in a room with him for 30 days.
Of course I am not saying it was ok, if I was in the parents position I wouldn't have any of it happen. Then we wouldn't have to dispute how far it went would we?
I personally have doubts about that but I didn't realise that meant I condoned any of the behaviour.0 -
It doesn't, CE has already apologised for the misunderstanding.cafcfan1990 said:
And I respect your opinion, you're hardly alone in thinking he is completely guilty of everything he is accused of.Covered End said:
Children fingerprints on his child porn collection alone seems sufficient evidence to me.cafcfan1990 said:
He's definitely not innocent. What he did to the kids was abuse, the only question is how far it went.Covered End said:
Subject to any of what ?cafcfan1990 said:
That's bang out of order to be honest mate. You don't know fuck all about me. I haven't got kids but I do care for my little sister and no way would I let her be subject to any of that.Covered End said:
Your defence of him illustrates how he got away with it.cafcfan1990 said:
Why do you always have to be ignorant when others don't share your view?ValleyGary said:
Na it can’t be. Sony actually sent mini spies in the form of 7 year old boys to steal Elvis and Beatles rights.Stu_of_Kunming said:
Simple explanation, he was a nonce.i_b_b_o_r_g said:Manicmania said - I'll have a go. He owned the rights to all of Elvis and the Beatles songs and he was paranoid that someone was trying to have him killed. He stated this to people close to him on multiple occasions. Was it a cover for other stuff? I don't know but it is a fact that soon after he died Sony bought those rights back fairly swiftly.
I said - Explain the alarmed corridors while having a young boy in his bedroom for days on end and a box of erotic / porn images with both his and the boy's fingerprints on
ffs.
Manicmania has a point, MJ was paranoid and did believe people were trying to kill him.
Of all the reasons pointing to MJ's guilt, I don't think an alarmed corridor is one of too much importance.
Presumably, you would also have done the same as the parents and let your young son sleep with him in a locked room.
Whilst you let him buy you a house, a car etc.
Unbelievable quite frankly.
Despite me not being 100% convinced by how far MJ went, I have repeatedly said what he did was wrong and that the parents should be partly to blame. So how does that constitute me being like them? Wanker.
Sorry, I thought you were saying he's innocent.
Sorry, I didn't read your earlier posts.
So you're saying it's ok that MJ went so far, as long as he didn't go too far ?
How far is acceptable ?
Anyway, at least we know you wouldn't let your sister be locked up in a room with him for 30 days.
Of course I am not saying it was ok, if I was in the parents position I wouldn't have any of it happen. Then we wouldn't have to dispute how far it went would we?
I personally have doubts about that but I didn't realise that meant I condoned any of the behaviour.0 -
The 10 points published in the Vanity Fair, link shared by AA the other day. -
1. There is no dispute that, at age 34, Michael Jackson slept more than 30 nights in a row in the same bed with 13-year-old Jordie Chandler at the boy’s house with Chandler’s mother present. He also slept in the same bed with Jordie Chandler at Chandler’s father’s house. The parents were divorced.
2. So far, five boys Michael Jackson shared beds with have accused him of abuse: Jordie Chandler, Jason Francia, Gavin Arvizo, Wade Robson, and Jimmy Safechuck. Jackson had the same nickname for Chandler and Arvizo: “Rubba.” He called Robson “Little One” and Safechuck “Applehead.”
3. Jackson paid $25 million to settle the Chandlers’ lawsuit, with $18 million going to Jordie, $2.5 million to each of the parents, and the rest to lawyers. Jackson said he paid that sum to avoid something “long and drawn out.” Francia also received $2.4 million from Jackson.
4. Michael Jackson suffered from the skin discoloration disease vitiligo. Jordie Chandler drew a picture of the markings on the underside of Jackson’s penis. His drawings were sealed in an envelope. A few months later, investigators photographed Jackson’s genitalia. The photographs matched Chandler’s drawings.
5. The hallway leading to Jackson’s bedroom was a serious security zone covered by video and wired for sound so that the steps of anyone approaching would make ding-dong sounds.
6. Jackson had an extensive collection of adult erotic material he kept in a suitcase next to his bed, including S&M bondage photos and a study of naked boys. Forensic experts with experience in the Secret Service found the fingerprints of boys alongside Jackson’s on the same pages. Jackson also had bondage sculptures of women with ball gags in their mouths on his desk, in full view of the boys who slept there.
7. According to the Neverland staff interviewed by the Santa Barbara authorities, no one ever saw or knew of a woman spending the night with Michael Jackson, including his two spouses, Debbie Rowe or Lisa Marie Presley. Rowe, the mother of two of Jackson’s children, made it clear to the Santa Barbara authorities that she never had sex with Jackson.
8. The parents of boys Jackson shared beds with were courted assiduously and given myriad expensive gifts. Wade Robson’s mother testified in the 2005 trial that she funneled wages through Jackson’s company and was given a permanent resident visa. Jimmy Safechuck’s parents got a house. Jordie Chandler’s mother got a diamond bracelet.
9. Two of the fathers of those who have accused Jackson, Jordie Chandler and Wade Robson, committed suicide. Both were estranged from their sons at the time.
10. In a 2002 documentary, Living with Michael Jackson, Jackson told Martin Bashir there was nothing wrong with sharing his bed with boys.
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I too have a doubt, as it'll never be proven in a court of law,.
However the Vanity fair article if correct, gave enough evidence for me to say that he was guilty.
He avoided jail via expensive lawyers and the like of child star Culkin defending him.
I apologise for the misunderstanding. I didn't realise you accepted he was a child abuser.
1. There is no dispute that, at age 34, Michael Jackson slept more than 30 nights in a row in the same bed with 13-year-old Jordie Chandler at the boy’s house with Chandler’s mother present. He also slept in the same bed with Jordie Chandler at Chandler’s father’s house. The parents were divorced.
2. So far, five boys Michael Jackson shared beds with have accused him of abuse: Jordie Chandler, Jason Francia, Gavin Arvizo, Wade Robson, and Jimmy Safechuck. Jackson had the same nickname for Chandler and Arvizo: “Rubba.” He called Robson “Little One” and Safechuck “Applehead.”
3. Jackson paid $25 million to settle the Chandlers’ lawsuit, with $18 million going to Jordie, $2.5 million to each of the parents, and the rest to lawyers. Jackson said he paid that sum to avoid something “long and drawn out.” Francia also received $2.4 million from Jackson.
4. Michael Jackson suffered from the skin discoloration disease vitiligo. Jordie Chandler drew a picture of the markings on the underside of Jackson’s penis. His drawings were sealed in an envelope. A few months later, investigators photographed Jackson’s genitalia. The photographs matched Chandler’s drawings.
5. The hallway leading to Jackson’s bedroom was a serious security zone covered by video and wired for sound so that the steps of anyone approaching would make ding-dong sounds.
6. Jackson had an extensive collection of adult erotic material he kept in a suitcase next to his bed, including S&M bondage photos and a study of naked boys. Forensic experts with experience in the Secret Service found the fingerprints of boys alongside Jackson’s on the same pages. Jackson also had bondage sculptures of women with ball gags in their mouths on his desk, in full view of the boys who slept there.
7. According to the Neverland staff interviewed by the Santa Barbara authorities, no one ever saw or knew of a woman spending the night with Michael Jackson, including his two spouses, Debbie Rowe or Lisa Marie Presley. Rowe, the mother of two of Jackson’s children, made it clear to the Santa Barbara authorities that she never had sex with Jackson.
8. The parents of boys Jackson shared beds with were courted assiduously and given myriad expensive gifts. Wade Robson’s mother testified in the 2005 trial that she funneled wages through Jackson’s company and was given a permanent resident visa. Jimmy Safechuck’s parents got a house. Jordie Chandler’s mother got a diamond bracelet.
9. Two of the fathers of those who have accused Jackson, Jordie Chandler and Wade Robson, committed suicide. Both were estranged from their sons at the time.
10. In a 2002 documentary, Living with Michael Jackson, Jackson told Martin Bashir there was nothing wrong with sharing his bed with boys.
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Great minds Covo2
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Certainly the parents should bear some culpability but I think you need to remember that these parents were already trying to get their children into “showbiz”. Having your child recognised and selected by the biggest superstar on the planet would in some way make you drunk with joy and expectations. Jackson was a master manipulator and had all the power, money and status to romance the hopes of the family. He had carefully crafted a persona of boy man and being a Peter Pan figure. Lived in Neverlandand was charm and innocence personified. He didn’t only groom the child. He groomed the family and in many ways groomed the entire world into thinking he was the boy that never grew up. It was a different story but look at Jimmy Saville. He built up a persona over years as a tireless charity worker. Volunteer porter at hospitals. All round nice guy. To a lesser extent than Jackson perhaps but still massive power and invulnerability. How else were both able to get away with their abuse for years.
Its not a simple thing to understand for ordinary people. These two just like many others were true monsters.
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I agree with Jimmy earlier on the thread that a couple of those points are a bit flimsy but there are several factors that far outweigh those. Together with the new allegations and Jackson’s own sisters comments it’s pretty grim.0
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I think if you’ve seen the whole documentary it’s quite clear that he’s guilty of what he did .
Yes these two lads didn’t speak out when they were younger but that was because they had been manipulated by him as paedophiles tend to do .
I didn’t want to believe he did these things either because I’m a fan of his music but the film makes my mind up without any doubt.
You cant fake the pain they are in and how it affect their relationships with family and partners . God knows how many others are affected as well .1 -
I could dispute a few of those points but quite frankly I don't really want too. I don't want to come across as someone who is defending what he did because there is no defence.Covered End said:I too have a doubt, as it'll never be proven in a court of law, however the Vanity fair article said ...
1. There is no dispute that, at age 34, Michael Jackson slept more than 30 nights in a row in the same bed with 13-year-old Jordie Chandler at the boy’s house with Chandler’s mother present. He also slept in the same bed with Jordie Chandler at Chandler’s father’s house. The parents were divorced.
2. So far, five boys Michael Jackson shared beds with have accused him of abuse: Jordie Chandler, Jason Francia, Gavin Arvizo, Wade Robson, and Jimmy Safechuck. Jackson had the same nickname for Chandler and Arvizo: “Rubba.” He called Robson “Little One” and Safechuck “Applehead.”
3. Jackson paid $25 million to settle the Chandlers’ lawsuit, with $18 million going to Jordie, $2.5 million to each of the parents, and the rest to lawyers. Jackson said he paid that sum to avoid something “long and drawn out.” Francia also received $2.4 million from Jackson.
4. Michael Jackson suffered from the skin discoloration disease vitiligo. Jordie Chandler drew a picture of the markings on the underside of Jackson’s penis. His drawings were sealed in an envelope. A few months later, investigators photographed Jackson’s genitalia. The photographs matched Chandler’s drawings.
5. The hallway leading to Jackson’s bedroom was a serious security zone covered by video and wired for sound so that the steps of anyone approaching would make ding-dong sounds.
6. Jackson had an extensive collection of adult erotic material he kept in a suitcase next to his bed, including S&M bondage photos and a study of naked boys. Forensic experts with experience in the Secret Service found the fingerprints of boys alongside Jackson’s on the same pages. Jackson also had bondage sculptures of women with ball gags in their mouths on his desk, in full view of the boys who slept there.
7. According to the Neverland staff interviewed by the Santa Barbara authorities, no one ever saw or knew of a woman spending the night with Michael Jackson, including his two spouses, Debbie Rowe or Lisa Marie Presley. Rowe, the mother of two of Jackson’s children, made it clear to the Santa Barbara authorities that she never had sex with Jackson.
8. The parents of boys Jackson shared beds with were courted assiduously and given myriad expensive gifts. Wade Robson’s mother testified in the 2005 trial that she funneled wages through Jackson’s company and was given a permanent resident visa. Jimmy Safechuck’s parents got a house. Jordie Chandler’s mother got a diamond bracelet.
9. Two of the fathers of those who have accused Jackson, Jordie Chandler and Wade Robson, committed suicide. Both were estranged from their sons at the time.
10. In a 2002 documentary, Living with Michael Jackson, Jackson told Martin Bashir there was nothing wrong with sharing his bed with boys.
I don't want to go round in circles because we are all entitled to our opinion. I just wish to clarify that I am in no doubt that abuse took place and MJ was a sick individual who was allowed to get away with far too much.0 -
Abuse definitely took place.cafcfan1990 said:
I could dispute a few of those points but quite frankly I don't really want too. I don't want to come across as someone who is defending what he did because there is no defence.Covered End said:I too have a doubt, as it'll never be proven in a court of law, however the Vanity fair article said ...
1. There is no dispute that, at age 34, Michael Jackson slept more than 30 nights in a row in the same bed with 13-year-old Jordie Chandler at the boy’s house with Chandler’s mother present. He also slept in the same bed with Jordie Chandler at Chandler’s father’s house. The parents were divorced.
2. So far, five boys Michael Jackson shared beds with have accused him of abuse: Jordie Chandler, Jason Francia, Gavin Arvizo, Wade Robson, and Jimmy Safechuck. Jackson had the same nickname for Chandler and Arvizo: “Rubba.” He called Robson “Little One” and Safechuck “Applehead.”
3. Jackson paid $25 million to settle the Chandlers’ lawsuit, with $18 million going to Jordie, $2.5 million to each of the parents, and the rest to lawyers. Jackson said he paid that sum to avoid something “long and drawn out.” Francia also received $2.4 million from Jackson.
4. Michael Jackson suffered from the skin discoloration disease vitiligo. Jordie Chandler drew a picture of the markings on the underside of Jackson’s penis. His drawings were sealed in an envelope. A few months later, investigators photographed Jackson’s genitalia. The photographs matched Chandler’s drawings.
5. The hallway leading to Jackson’s bedroom was a serious security zone covered by video and wired for sound so that the steps of anyone approaching would make ding-dong sounds.
6. Jackson had an extensive collection of adult erotic material he kept in a suitcase next to his bed, including S&M bondage photos and a study of naked boys. Forensic experts with experience in the Secret Service found the fingerprints of boys alongside Jackson’s on the same pages. Jackson also had bondage sculptures of women with ball gags in their mouths on his desk, in full view of the boys who slept there.
7. According to the Neverland staff interviewed by the Santa Barbara authorities, no one ever saw or knew of a woman spending the night with Michael Jackson, including his two spouses, Debbie Rowe or Lisa Marie Presley. Rowe, the mother of two of Jackson’s children, made it clear to the Santa Barbara authorities that she never had sex with Jackson.
8. The parents of boys Jackson shared beds with were courted assiduously and given myriad expensive gifts. Wade Robson’s mother testified in the 2005 trial that she funneled wages through Jackson’s company and was given a permanent resident visa. Jimmy Safechuck’s parents got a house. Jordie Chandler’s mother got a diamond bracelet.
9. Two of the fathers of those who have accused Jackson, Jordie Chandler and Wade Robson, committed suicide. Both were estranged from their sons at the time.
10. In a 2002 documentary, Living with Michael Jackson, Jackson told Martin Bashir there was nothing wrong with sharing his bed with boys.
I don't want to go round in circles because we are all entitled to our opinion. I just wish to clarify that I am in no doubt that abuse took place and MJ was a sick individual who was allowed to get away with far too much.
As I said previously, sleeping with a child is, at an absolute minimum, mental abuse for that child.2 -
It seems I misunderstood you. Apologies once again.cafcfan1990 said:
I could dispute a few of those points but quite frankly I don't really want too. I don't want to come across as someone who is defending what he did because there is no defence.Covered End said:I too have a doubt, as it'll never be proven in a court of law, however the Vanity fair article said ...
1. There is no dispute that, at age 34, Michael Jackson slept more than 30 nights in a row in the same bed with 13-year-old Jordie Chandler at the boy’s house with Chandler’s mother present. He also slept in the same bed with Jordie Chandler at Chandler’s father’s house. The parents were divorced.
2. So far, five boys Michael Jackson shared beds with have accused him of abuse: Jordie Chandler, Jason Francia, Gavin Arvizo, Wade Robson, and Jimmy Safechuck. Jackson had the same nickname for Chandler and Arvizo: “Rubba.” He called Robson “Little One” and Safechuck “Applehead.”
3. Jackson paid $25 million to settle the Chandlers’ lawsuit, with $18 million going to Jordie, $2.5 million to each of the parents, and the rest to lawyers. Jackson said he paid that sum to avoid something “long and drawn out.” Francia also received $2.4 million from Jackson.
4. Michael Jackson suffered from the skin discoloration disease vitiligo. Jordie Chandler drew a picture of the markings on the underside of Jackson’s penis. His drawings were sealed in an envelope. A few months later, investigators photographed Jackson’s genitalia. The photographs matched Chandler’s drawings.
5. The hallway leading to Jackson’s bedroom was a serious security zone covered by video and wired for sound so that the steps of anyone approaching would make ding-dong sounds.
6. Jackson had an extensive collection of adult erotic material he kept in a suitcase next to his bed, including S&M bondage photos and a study of naked boys. Forensic experts with experience in the Secret Service found the fingerprints of boys alongside Jackson’s on the same pages. Jackson also had bondage sculptures of women with ball gags in their mouths on his desk, in full view of the boys who slept there.
7. According to the Neverland staff interviewed by the Santa Barbara authorities, no one ever saw or knew of a woman spending the night with Michael Jackson, including his two spouses, Debbie Rowe or Lisa Marie Presley. Rowe, the mother of two of Jackson’s children, made it clear to the Santa Barbara authorities that she never had sex with Jackson.
8. The parents of boys Jackson shared beds with were courted assiduously and given myriad expensive gifts. Wade Robson’s mother testified in the 2005 trial that she funneled wages through Jackson’s company and was given a permanent resident visa. Jimmy Safechuck’s parents got a house. Jordie Chandler’s mother got a diamond bracelet.
9. Two of the fathers of those who have accused Jackson, Jordie Chandler and Wade Robson, committed suicide. Both were estranged from their sons at the time.
10. In a 2002 documentary, Living with Michael Jackson, Jackson told Martin Bashir there was nothing wrong with sharing his bed with boys.
I don't want to go round in circles because we are all entitled to our opinion. I just wish to clarify that I am in no doubt that abuse took place and MJ was a sick individual who was allowed to get away with far too much.0 -
Very good post and one that is hard to argue with.ShootersHillGuru said:Certainly the parents should bear some culpability but I think you need to remember that these parents were already trying to get their children into “showbiz”. Having your child recognised and selected by the biggest superstar on the planet would in some way make you drunk with joy and expectations. Jackson was a master manipulator and had all the power, money and status to romance the hopes of the family. He had carefully crafted a persona of boy man and being a Peter Pan figure. Lived in Neverlandand was charm and innocence personified. He didn’t only groom the child. He groomed the family and in many ways groomed the entire world into thinking he was the boy that never grew up. It was a different story but look at Jimmy Saville. He built up a persona over years as a tireless charity worker. Volunteer porter at hospitals. All round nice guy. To a lesser extent than Jackson perhaps but still massive power and invulnerability. How else were both able to get away with their abuse for years.
Its not a simple thing to understand for ordinary people. These two just like many others were true monsters.
But saying he "groomed the entire world into thinking he was the boy that never grew up" is certainly an opinion and not a fact. It's tough to have sympathy with Jackson but there is no doubt he didn't have it easy as a child. Like I said no need to go round in circles but you clearly have your opinion and I respect that. He definitely groomed the kids and the parents, and maybe it wasn't as easy for them to say no as I made out, but they should have drew the line. They lived in denial and lived comfortably knowing something fishy was going on. That is nearly as disgusting as what Jackson did because they had a responsibility to care for their children.
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See this is where my opinion differs to others. The film didn't actually convince of me of anything. I was never sure and I thought the film might convince me he was guilty but it didn't to be honest. It confirmed exactly what I thought of the parents but not much else.Bedsaddick said:I think if you’ve seen the whole documentary it’s quite clear that he’s guilty of what he did .
Yes these two lads didn’t speak out when they were younger but that was because they had been manipulated by him as paedophiles tend to do .
I didn’t want to believe he did these things either because I’m a fan of his music but the film makes my mind up without any doubt.
You cant fake the pain they are in and how it affect their relationships with family and partners . God knows how many others are affected as well .0 -
No problem and I apologise for jumping on your comments. No big deal, let's move on.Covered End said:
It seems I misunderstood you. Apologies once again.cafcfan1990 said:
I could dispute a few of those points but quite frankly I don't really want too. I don't want to come across as someone who is defending what he did because there is no defence.Covered End said:I too have a doubt, as it'll never be proven in a court of law, however the Vanity fair article said ...
1. There is no dispute that, at age 34, Michael Jackson slept more than 30 nights in a row in the same bed with 13-year-old Jordie Chandler at the boy’s house with Chandler’s mother present. He also slept in the same bed with Jordie Chandler at Chandler’s father’s house. The parents were divorced.
2. So far, five boys Michael Jackson shared beds with have accused him of abuse: Jordie Chandler, Jason Francia, Gavin Arvizo, Wade Robson, and Jimmy Safechuck. Jackson had the same nickname for Chandler and Arvizo: “Rubba.” He called Robson “Little One” and Safechuck “Applehead.”
3. Jackson paid $25 million to settle the Chandlers’ lawsuit, with $18 million going to Jordie, $2.5 million to each of the parents, and the rest to lawyers. Jackson said he paid that sum to avoid something “long and drawn out.” Francia also received $2.4 million from Jackson.
4. Michael Jackson suffered from the skin discoloration disease vitiligo. Jordie Chandler drew a picture of the markings on the underside of Jackson’s penis. His drawings were sealed in an envelope. A few months later, investigators photographed Jackson’s genitalia. The photographs matched Chandler’s drawings.
5. The hallway leading to Jackson’s bedroom was a serious security zone covered by video and wired for sound so that the steps of anyone approaching would make ding-dong sounds.
6. Jackson had an extensive collection of adult erotic material he kept in a suitcase next to his bed, including S&M bondage photos and a study of naked boys. Forensic experts with experience in the Secret Service found the fingerprints of boys alongside Jackson’s on the same pages. Jackson also had bondage sculptures of women with ball gags in their mouths on his desk, in full view of the boys who slept there.
7. According to the Neverland staff interviewed by the Santa Barbara authorities, no one ever saw or knew of a woman spending the night with Michael Jackson, including his two spouses, Debbie Rowe or Lisa Marie Presley. Rowe, the mother of two of Jackson’s children, made it clear to the Santa Barbara authorities that she never had sex with Jackson.
8. The parents of boys Jackson shared beds with were courted assiduously and given myriad expensive gifts. Wade Robson’s mother testified in the 2005 trial that she funneled wages through Jackson’s company and was given a permanent resident visa. Jimmy Safechuck’s parents got a house. Jordie Chandler’s mother got a diamond bracelet.
9. Two of the fathers of those who have accused Jackson, Jordie Chandler and Wade Robson, committed suicide. Both were estranged from their sons at the time.
10. In a 2002 documentary, Living with Michael Jackson, Jackson told Martin Bashir there was nothing wrong with sharing his bed with boys.
I don't want to go round in circles because we are all entitled to our opinion. I just wish to clarify that I am in no doubt that abuse took place and MJ was a sick individual who was allowed to get away with far too much.1 - Sponsored links:
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Then there is no defence, in any way whatsoever, even to defend how far you think it might have gone, or whether some of the accounts have been exaggerated. There is no excuse for even the very lowest level of child abuse. None whatsoever. So why would anyone want to even see Jackson's side of it?cafcfan1990 said:
I could dispute a few of those points but quite frankly I don't really want too. I don't want to come across as someone who is defending what he did because there is no defence.Covered End said:I too have a doubt, as it'll never be proven in a court of law, however the Vanity fair article said ...
1. There is no dispute that, at age 34, Michael Jackson slept more than 30 nights in a row in the same bed with 13-year-old Jordie Chandler at the boy’s house with Chandler’s mother present. He also slept in the same bed with Jordie Chandler at Chandler’s father’s house. The parents were divorced.
2. So far, five boys Michael Jackson shared beds with have accused him of abuse: Jordie Chandler, Jason Francia, Gavin Arvizo, Wade Robson, and Jimmy Safechuck. Jackson had the same nickname for Chandler and Arvizo: “Rubba.” He called Robson “Little One” and Safechuck “Applehead.”
3. Jackson paid $25 million to settle the Chandlers’ lawsuit, with $18 million going to Jordie, $2.5 million to each of the parents, and the rest to lawyers. Jackson said he paid that sum to avoid something “long and drawn out.” Francia also received $2.4 million from Jackson.
4. Michael Jackson suffered from the skin discoloration disease vitiligo. Jordie Chandler drew a picture of the markings on the underside of Jackson’s penis. His drawings were sealed in an envelope. A few months later, investigators photographed Jackson’s genitalia. The photographs matched Chandler’s drawings.
5. The hallway leading to Jackson’s bedroom was a serious security zone covered by video and wired for sound so that the steps of anyone approaching would make ding-dong sounds.
6. Jackson had an extensive collection of adult erotic material he kept in a suitcase next to his bed, including S&M bondage photos and a study of naked boys. Forensic experts with experience in the Secret Service found the fingerprints of boys alongside Jackson’s on the same pages. Jackson also had bondage sculptures of women with ball gags in their mouths on his desk, in full view of the boys who slept there.
7. According to the Neverland staff interviewed by the Santa Barbara authorities, no one ever saw or knew of a woman spending the night with Michael Jackson, including his two spouses, Debbie Rowe or Lisa Marie Presley. Rowe, the mother of two of Jackson’s children, made it clear to the Santa Barbara authorities that she never had sex with Jackson.
8. The parents of boys Jackson shared beds with were courted assiduously and given myriad expensive gifts. Wade Robson’s mother testified in the 2005 trial that she funneled wages through Jackson’s company and was given a permanent resident visa. Jimmy Safechuck’s parents got a house. Jordie Chandler’s mother got a diamond bracelet.
9. Two of the fathers of those who have accused Jackson, Jordie Chandler and Wade Robson, committed suicide. Both were estranged from their sons at the time.
10. In a 2002 documentary, Living with Michael Jackson, Jackson told Martin Bashir there was nothing wrong with sharing his bed with boys.
I don't want to go round in circles because we are all entitled to our opinion. I just wish to clarify that I am in no doubt that abuse took place and MJ was a sick individual who was allowed to get away with far too much.
I'm in no doubt this happened. I was in no doubt when it first came up. As soon as he paid off Chandler he effectively admitted his guilt but knew he had the money to cover his tracks. The family know what went on, they are trying to continue to cover it up because MJ is their golden goose that will just keep on giving, for several generations of his family most likely. It would appear that money and a dead paedophile's name is more important that the act of child abuse in that family, and in fact to fans and other members of the public.
It's sickening.
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cafcdave123 said:Worrying amount of paedophile sympathisers out there
Why do people make comments like this on these kind of threads?? It was the same on the Ched Evans thread - anyone who didn’t believe he was guilty was a ‘rape apologist’ or whatever the ridiculous term was.
Surely a paedophile sympathiser would be someone who comments along the lines of ‘He was definitely a paedo but I happen to like paedophiles’. Given that I haven’t seen any posts remotely like that, I don’t see that there are any paedophile sympathisers. There are people who believe he was guilty and those who believe he wasn’t.1 -
Agreed there is no defence, hence why I said “there is no defence”.WestCountryAddick said:
Then there is no defence, in any way whatsoever, even to defend how far you think it might have gone, or whether some of the accounts have been exaggerated. There is no excuse for even the very lowest level of child abuse. None whatsoever. So why would anyone want to even see Jackson's side of it?cafcfan1990 said:
I could dispute a few of those points but quite frankly I don't really want too. I don't want to come across as someone who is defending what he did because there is no defence.Covered End said:I too have a doubt, as it'll never be proven in a court of law, however the Vanity fair article said ...
1. There is no dispute that, at age 34, Michael Jackson slept more than 30 nights in a row in the same bed with 13-year-old Jordie Chandler at the boy’s house with Chandler’s mother present. He also slept in the same bed with Jordie Chandler at Chandler’s father’s house. The parents were divorced.
2. So far, five boys Michael Jackson shared beds with have accused him of abuse: Jordie Chandler, Jason Francia, Gavin Arvizo, Wade Robson, and Jimmy Safechuck. Jackson had the same nickname for Chandler and Arvizo: “Rubba.” He called Robson “Little One” and Safechuck “Applehead.”
3. Jackson paid $25 million to settle the Chandlers’ lawsuit, with $18 million going to Jordie, $2.5 million to each of the parents, and the rest to lawyers. Jackson said he paid that sum to avoid something “long and drawn out.” Francia also received $2.4 million from Jackson.
4. Michael Jackson suffered from the skin discoloration disease vitiligo. Jordie Chandler drew a picture of the markings on the underside of Jackson’s penis. His drawings were sealed in an envelope. A few months later, investigators photographed Jackson’s genitalia. The photographs matched Chandler’s drawings.
5. The hallway leading to Jackson’s bedroom was a serious security zone covered by video and wired for sound so that the steps of anyone approaching would make ding-dong sounds.
6. Jackson had an extensive collection of adult erotic material he kept in a suitcase next to his bed, including S&M bondage photos and a study of naked boys. Forensic experts with experience in the Secret Service found the fingerprints of boys alongside Jackson’s on the same pages. Jackson also had bondage sculptures of women with ball gags in their mouths on his desk, in full view of the boys who slept there.
7. According to the Neverland staff interviewed by the Santa Barbara authorities, no one ever saw or knew of a woman spending the night with Michael Jackson, including his two spouses, Debbie Rowe or Lisa Marie Presley. Rowe, the mother of two of Jackson’s children, made it clear to the Santa Barbara authorities that she never had sex with Jackson.
8. The parents of boys Jackson shared beds with were courted assiduously and given myriad expensive gifts. Wade Robson’s mother testified in the 2005 trial that she funneled wages through Jackson’s company and was given a permanent resident visa. Jimmy Safechuck’s parents got a house. Jordie Chandler’s mother got a diamond bracelet.
9. Two of the fathers of those who have accused Jackson, Jordie Chandler and Wade Robson, committed suicide. Both were estranged from their sons at the time.
10. In a 2002 documentary, Living with Michael Jackson, Jackson told Martin Bashir there was nothing wrong with sharing his bed with boys.
I don't want to go round in circles because we are all entitled to our opinion. I just wish to clarify that I am in no doubt that abuse took place and MJ was a sick individual who was allowed to get away with far too much.
I'm in no doubt this happened. I was in no doubt when it first came up. As soon as he paid off Chandler he effectively admitted his guilt but knew he had the money to cover his tracks. The family know what went on, they are trying to continue to cover it up because MJ is their golden goose that will just keep on giving, for several generations of his family most likely. It would appear that money and a dead paedophile's name is more important that the act of child abuse in that family, and in fact to fans and other members of the public.
It's sickening.
I dont agree paying Chandler off admitted guilt though. Plenty of innocent rich famous people have made payouts to avoid the hassle. The tapes recording Chandlers father are very suspect.0 -
Genuine question, Can people show me other cases of rich people paying off child abuse allegations to save hassle?0
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JaShea99 said: Why do people make comments like this on these kind of threads?? It was the same on the Ched Evans thread - anyone who didn’t believe he was guilty was a ‘rape apologist’ or whatever the ridiculous term was.
Surely a paedophile sympathiser would be someone who comments along the lines of ‘He was definitely a paedo but I happen to like paedophiles’. Given that I haven’t seen any posts remotely like that, I don’t see that there are any paedophile sympathisers. There are people who believe he was guilty and those who believe he wasn’t.
I said: think the issue is that a lot of people are 100% convinced that, given the evidence, he's guilty of some sort of child abuse no matter how minimal and it is plain to see, so they can't understand why others split hairs and even try and give him a pass because he was some sort of special case. I also think that an uncomfortably large percentage of his fan base ignore the accusations because of who he is, regardless of the evidence offered to them. In that instance, they are paedophile sympathisers whether willing or not2 -
If it were me, and I knew I was innocent, I wouldn't pay a single penny to anybody, I would use that money to build a robust defence and prove to the world, that I was not what these people said I was. This is child abuse we are talking about, not some libel scandal or some star having an affair with another star. This is probably the most heinous crime there is, you can't just make it go away with cash. If you are innocent you need to man up and accept the rigours of a trial, people will respect you more for it ultimately. People always suspected that he WAS a paedophile anyway, because he never went to court to clear his name. How could you accept that if you were completely innocent in something like this?cafcfan1990 said:
Agreed there is no defence, hence why I said “there is no defence”.WestCountryAddick said:
Then there is no defence, in any way whatsoever, even to defend how far you think it might have gone, or whether some of the accounts have been exaggerated. There is no excuse for even the very lowest level of child abuse. None whatsoever. So why would anyone want to even see Jackson's side of it?cafcfan1990 said:
I could dispute a few of those points but quite frankly I don't really want too. I don't want to come across as someone who is defending what he did because there is no defence.Covered End said:I too have a doubt, as it'll never be proven in a court of law, however the Vanity fair article said ...
1. There is no dispute that, at age 34, Michael Jackson slept more than 30 nights in a row in the same bed with 13-year-old Jordie Chandler at the boy’s house with Chandler’s mother present. He also slept in the same bed with Jordie Chandler at Chandler’s father’s house. The parents were divorced.
2. So far, five boys Michael Jackson shared beds with have accused him of abuse: Jordie Chandler, Jason Francia, Gavin Arvizo, Wade Robson, and Jimmy Safechuck. Jackson had the same nickname for Chandler and Arvizo: “Rubba.” He called Robson “Little One” and Safechuck “Applehead.”
3. Jackson paid $25 million to settle the Chandlers’ lawsuit, with $18 million going to Jordie, $2.5 million to each of the parents, and the rest to lawyers. Jackson said he paid that sum to avoid something “long and drawn out.” Francia also received $2.4 million from Jackson.
4. Michael Jackson suffered from the skin discoloration disease vitiligo. Jordie Chandler drew a picture of the markings on the underside of Jackson’s penis. His drawings were sealed in an envelope. A few months later, investigators photographed Jackson’s genitalia. The photographs matched Chandler’s drawings.
5. The hallway leading to Jackson’s bedroom was a serious security zone covered by video and wired for sound so that the steps of anyone approaching would make ding-dong sounds.
6. Jackson had an extensive collection of adult erotic material he kept in a suitcase next to his bed, including S&M bondage photos and a study of naked boys. Forensic experts with experience in the Secret Service found the fingerprints of boys alongside Jackson’s on the same pages. Jackson also had bondage sculptures of women with ball gags in their mouths on his desk, in full view of the boys who slept there.
7. According to the Neverland staff interviewed by the Santa Barbara authorities, no one ever saw or knew of a woman spending the night with Michael Jackson, including his two spouses, Debbie Rowe or Lisa Marie Presley. Rowe, the mother of two of Jackson’s children, made it clear to the Santa Barbara authorities that she never had sex with Jackson.
8. The parents of boys Jackson shared beds with were courted assiduously and given myriad expensive gifts. Wade Robson’s mother testified in the 2005 trial that she funneled wages through Jackson’s company and was given a permanent resident visa. Jimmy Safechuck’s parents got a house. Jordie Chandler’s mother got a diamond bracelet.
9. Two of the fathers of those who have accused Jackson, Jordie Chandler and Wade Robson, committed suicide. Both were estranged from their sons at the time.
10. In a 2002 documentary, Living with Michael Jackson, Jackson told Martin Bashir there was nothing wrong with sharing his bed with boys.
I don't want to go round in circles because we are all entitled to our opinion. I just wish to clarify that I am in no doubt that abuse took place and MJ was a sick individual who was allowed to get away with far too much.
I'm in no doubt this happened. I was in no doubt when it first came up. As soon as he paid off Chandler he effectively admitted his guilt but knew he had the money to cover his tracks. The family know what went on, they are trying to continue to cover it up because MJ is their golden goose that will just keep on giving, for several generations of his family most likely. It would appear that money and a dead paedophile's name is more important that the act of child abuse in that family, and in fact to fans and other members of the public.
It's sickening.
I dont agree paying Chandler off admitted guilt though. Plenty of innocent rich famous people have made payouts to avoid the hassle. The tapes recording Chandlers father are very suspect.
Now, it's possible that the parents of Chandler immediately thought of what they could get out of Jackson once they found out what he was doing, which in itself is another despicable way to act, but it in no way excuses what Jackson did to the poor boy, obviously. The parents of that kid owed it to him to take it all the way, but when you are talking about such vast sums of money, I'm sure it's a very difficult decision. Do I have this guy convicted or do I take enough money so that my son never has to worry about another thing throughout his whole life? There is more to life than just having money.5 -
I don't think so to be honest - he's just one of many people who literally worshipped Jackson. He's not the only fan not willing to change their view. Thanks for being honest about your feelings towards Gary GlitterAlgarveaddick said:
I was a big fan of Gary Glitter. When I realised what a "nasty person but expressed in four letters" he was, I stopped being a fan. If he's that blinkered because of "worship", he seriously might need some psychiatric help?Saga Lout said:One of my oldest friends, who I've known since school, idolised Jackson and he won't accept these claims. I don't think that makes my friend a paedophile sympathiser, he finds it impossible to believe that his idol could be a wrong 'un.
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Personally believe he probably did do this but what I will never understand is why Jordie Chandlers parents took the money.
It can’t have been to protect their son from the publicity as they had already accused him.
If someone tried to buy me off after they had abused my child they would get short shrift from me.1 -
if someone had abused my child they'd get a bit more than short shrift.MrOneLung said:Personally believe he probably did do this but what I will never understand is why Jordie Chandlers parents took the money.
It can’t have been to protect their son from the publicity as they had already accused him.
If someone tried to buy me off after they had abused my child they would get short shrift from me.
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Leroy has considered the story from all angles, evaluating it on its merits, and has come to a conclusion - opining thus
Geezer was a wrong'un3
