[cite]Posted By: Harveys Trainer[/cite]"hmmm yeah thats why Ive been thinking its too much hassle and will make them look at our names more closely. Nothing goes down on record is what the copper told me. Hopefully this is true"
So you and your group are so totally outraged by your unfair treatment......... and yet it's too much hassle to do anything about it.
Excuse me if I don't feel any sympathy for you on this matter.
Complain and act or shut up and accept.
Have you not dealt with police at football before?
Sometimes you have to go against what you feel is right for the long term benefit. Whilst I'm not suggesting these chaps are regulars away and drink in known pubs at home games, it could well lead to your spotter being more nosey and arsey than before.
Your spotter has already grassed these lads up when it wasn't them and one was in the toilet at the time. Who's to say what more bullshit they could concoct.
According to many "it happens to everyone". So it may surprise them to know that in 60 odd years as a football regular I've never had the need to "deal" with the police at a football match. Unless you count taking my daughter over to see the horses.
However, I do know that there are organisations to complain to if you feel you have been unfairly treated by the police. You don't have to kick up a fuss at the time, you can do it calmly later, to an independent person. Which I would do if I had been so clearly unfairly treated as to be convicted of something when I wasn't at the scene at the time.
The fact that this gentleman states it will: "will make them look at our names more closely" leads me to think there is something to find which it what has stopped taking the matter further, rather than an irrational fear that they will make up other "bullshit".
I thought everyone on here have already said that the fellas concerned aren't trouble at all and wouldn't have anything to hide?
They've just been grassed up falsely by the Charlton FIO but you think they have stuff to hide rather than OB making things up?
I agree that it's better to follow this up after the event and it may be worth doing that....but it can lead to more hassle and that's something that does play on people's minds.
I think a lot of people forget what it is like getting into going football regularly in your late teens / early 20s in a group, and how easy it is to get caught up in the 'laddish element'. I can imagine it has been even more common in the last five years with the pressure that the rebirth of the 'Football Factory / Green St' glorification has thrown into the mix.
I know that the group i started going with nearly 20 years ago would now by default fit into the 'risk element' as the police now grade, yet we were not hooligans. Where then though you had a friendly PC Rogers on your case, gently telling you to behave and that you're being watched, nowadays it seems a lot more hardline and definitive.
A few of that group got into trouble, some learned from it, a couple of others got attracted further into those sort of things, but the vast majority generally drift through and with maturity simply move on to being 'your average fan'. There will be loads of respectable posters on here who at that point in their life would now be branded as 'risk element' and you would laugh about it now because your lives since have moved you away from those laddish aspects.
Any form of young group of lads on the sauce and being a bit boisterous will always stand out more at Charlton than at other clubs becase of the huge different cross-section of support we attract, particularly at away games.
I know some of the charges and bans some of the discussed group have picked up other the last few years have been justified, but i also know that a lot probably haven't and have been as a result of guilt by association.
If you go in a group nowadays you have to be sooo switched on as you can be punished for even the most minor step out of line so quickly and so severely. The common sense approach, or at least the warning that you used to get years ago from the PCs that you may be drifting into trouble and need to take a step back and re-evaluate quickly, seems to have completely vanished.
As for the main subject of the thread, it caused a few people to laugh because they can see how ridiculous the situation sounds to those who have met the individual. Firstly, that of all the idiots i have met down at Charlton, none of them would deliberately throw a bottle at a barmaid, and secondly if the event did actually occur, you can be sure as hell it wouldn't be someone like Nathan Prior and Mike, who were then treated like well, criminals.
Leroy, I think 1 Light is the poster formally known as RU86 and I don't think Rupert would be much of a threat : - )
Couple of serious points,
1. Nathan and Mike, if you are really unhappy speak to Mick Everett at the Club. He will know if you are on any list or not and will be able to give you the name of the police officers, who all seemed quite reasonable when I had dealings with them, to talk to about it.
2. The Charlton Football Spotter didn't "grass" anyone up. The Police can't be grasses. They may or may not have mis-identified someone but it seems they were told it was Nathan by another Charlton fan.
It seems this person is known to other people on here. If Charlton fans want to do something to help Nathan and Mike then they should tell them, as a whisper, that person's name. Call it grassing if you like but don't then blame the police for getting it wrong if you prefer to defend the person who did throw the bottle.
[cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]I think a lot of people forget what it is like getting into going football regularly in your late teens / early 20s in a group, and how easy it is to get caught up in the 'laddish element'. I can imagine it has been even more common in the last five years with the pressure that the rebirth of the 'Football Factory / Green St' glorification has thrown into the mix.
I know that the group i started going with nearly 20 years ago would now by default fit into the 'risk element' as the police now grade, yet we were not hooligans. Where then though you had a friendly PC Rogers on your case, gently telling you to behave and that you're being watched, nowadays it seems a lot more hardline and definitive.
A few of that group got into trouble, some learned from it, a couple of others got attracted further into those sort of things, but the vast majority generally drift through and with maturity simply move on to being 'your average fan'. There will be loads of respectable posters on here who at that point in their life would now be branded as 'risk element' and you would laugh about it now because your lives since have moved you away from those laddish aspects.
Any form of young group of lads on the sauce and being a bit boisterous will always stand out more at Charlton than at other clubs becase of the huge different cross-section of support we attract, particularly at away games.
I know some of the charges and bans some of the discussed group have picked up other the last few years have been justified, but i also know that a lot probably haven't and have been as a result of guilt by association.
If you go in a group nowadays you have to be sooo switched on as you can be punished for even the most minor step out of line so quickly and so severely. The common sense approach, or at least the warning that you used to get years ago from the PCs that you may be drifting into trouble and need to take a step back and re-evaluate quickly, seems to have completely vanished.
All well and good but that approach did not stop football violence. It may have worked on some who drifted close to it and thankfully heeded the warnings but the violence continued.
It was the use of planned operations, collecting masses of evidence, use of undercover officers and CCTV plus much longer sentences that brought about a reduction in football related violence. The by-product of that was that the innocent suffered as well as we were filmed, searched and treated as potential hooligans by many police forces.
Who do I mostly blame for that? Not the police (although they have been in the wrong sometimes) but the idiots from every club who thought it was OK to carry out acting the way they do, some of them well into their forties and even taking their teenage sons along with them.
And what makes me laugh is that is is often the same people who call for longer prison sentences and tougher crack downs on every other type of criminal (because that is what they are) who suddenly turn into liberal Guardian reader types waving the human rights act while balancing chips on both shoulders whenever anyone they know gets done for football violence.
Coppers at football being arseholes ------------------ what----------------surely not----------------cant be in the UK -----------Worlds finest-----------------salt of the earth------------dixon of dock green---------------------blah blah.
Anyone who has been goingto footie pre days of segregation etc etc knows they have always taken liberties-----always lied in court and generally looked at football supporters as an easy nick.
Used to be a cage at The Valley where they haeld you then put ypu in the van gave you a thumping and let you go. Now its "plead guilty and get a fine or take your chances and get sent down".
I do agree that we want the OB to smash the great unwashed to pulp (then burn the remains) but leave us to do the havoc and mayhem without them geting involved and yes of course its sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo double standards.Thing is though if football fans had pressure groups like some of the more "set about" other groups we would have been able to prove 100s and 100s of abuses of power.
OB in the UK do a vey very very difficult and at times impossible job. Not only could i not do it re IQ etc but dealing with the dregs of the UK day in day out would turn me into a death squad on me own. I just think the UK OB are KAK -----------------IMHO.
[cite]Posted By: Harveys Trainer[/cite]"the UK OB are KAK"
Not a million miles away from
"All Millwall fans are hooligans or wannabe hooligans or posting on messageboards of clubs they don't care about"
[cite]Posted By: Harveys Trainer[/cite]"the UK OB are KAK"
Not a million miles away from
"All Millwall fans are hooligans or wannabe hooligans or posting on messageboards of clubs they don't care about"
Edited it...now it's true....
I care about you lot, you're our naive little brother who we tease from time to time but generally spend our time protecting you from bigger boys. We've had to be a little nastier so the naughty boys like west ham, tottenham, cardiff et al pick fights with us rather than bullying our kind and polite little bro.
You think we're horrible and you act as the saintly son for the parents, but deep down you know you'd be lost without your big brother, someone you look up to and admire in certain ways but also know you've learnt from the mistakes we've made along the way.
Like all brothers we usually win the battles and make our little brothers cry, but we also know when to step back and let you shine (premiership years and the wins you had against us years ago), but now you've fallen off the saintly path somewhat with relegation, financial mess and throwing bottles at barmaids and we need to show you the right path by example.
Hopefully you'll look up to your older brother again and use him as model for you to rebuild and grow back into a young exciting person playing in the same playground again with their beloved older brother.
In the meantime we'll take over the mantle of bullying and embarrassing our cringeworthy and laughable cousin who lives down the road, Mr Palace. What a wanker he is. Holmesdale fucking Ultras. Don't make me laugh. Your older brother knows you'll raise a smile when he goes to your cousins home playground and takes the piss.
[cite aria-level=0 aria-posinset=0 aria-setsize=0]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]
[cite aria-level=0 aria-posinset=0 aria-setsize=0]Posted By: Sparrows Lane Lion[/cite]
[cite aria-level=0 aria-posinset=0 aria-setsize=0]Posted By: Harveys Trainer[/cite]"the UK OB are KAK"
Not a million miles away from
"All Millwall fans are hooligans or wannabe hooligans or posting on messageboards of clubs they don't care about"
Edited it...now it's true....
I care about you lot, you're our naive little brother who we tease from time to time but generally spend our time protecting you from bigger boys. We've had to be a little nastier so the naughty boys like west ham, tottenham, cardiff et al pick fights with us rather than bullying our kind and polite little bro.
You think we're horrible and you act as the saintly son for the parents, but deep down you know you'd be lost without your big brother, someone you look up to and admire in certain ways but also know you've learnt from the mistakes we've made along the way.
Like all brothers we usually win the battles and make our little brothers cry, but we also know when to step back and let you shine (premiership years and the wins you had against us years ago), but now you've fallen off the saintly path somewhat with relegation, financial mess and throwing bottles at barmaids and we need to show you the right path by example.
Hopefully you'll look up to your older brother again and use him as model for you to rebuild and grow back into a young exciting person playing in the same playground again with their beloved older brother.
In the meantime we'll take over the mantle of bullying and embarrassing our cringeworthy and laughable cousin who lives down the road, Mr Palace. What a wanker he is. Holmesdale fucking Ultras. Don't make me laugh. Your older brother knows you'll raise a smile when he goes to your cousins home playground and takes the piss.
this attitude being one of the reasons that the op was 27'd. I've no time for anyone who thinks or behaves as if it's ok to be at football for a ruck with the opposition fans. Gives the police all the excuses they need to act the maggot with all and sundry at a game.
Thank you Sparrow. Yes I probably should complain but loads of people got given sec 27s mainly for just being in the pub singing, the bottle incident obviously just sparked the police into action. Theyve done this to us when we done nothing wrong, I dont want any more dealings with em
Painting by Morgan Penn of some anonymous Milwall supporters, our beloved band of protecting brothers :-)
Great painting, captures them the way most of them want to be seen and what the wannabe's aspire to.
I think of them as the distant cousins you don't want to admit you are related to, who turn up at family do's and spoil it for everyone else without ever realising that people are embarrassed to be connected to them. They laugh at their own jokes too.
they all looklike they are having a hard time having a shit. Strange that , i would have thought watching that pile of dung would have kept the bowels open rather than sealing em up.
[cite]Posted By: Leroy Ambrose[/cite]Is it just me, or do they all look like Max Beesley?
Nah, the one to the right of the shirtless guy looks like Johnny Vaughan (or maybe his Dad), and the one up and to the left of him with his gob open looks like Andy Serkis
Why's everyone so het up about a s27 order, basically it just says ''piss off and don't come back for 48 hours' it doesn't follow you about forever...
The reason the OB use them is because an incident's occurred, they don't know who did it and, as in Nat's case, no-one fingers the culprit therefore everyone gets roped in...
No point bitching on about it, just stay out of boozers on match days or if there's likely to be trouble move on....
[quote][cite]Posted By: Sparrows Lane Lion[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: Leroy Ambrose[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: Sparrows Lane Lion[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: Harveys Trainer[/cite]"the UK OB are KAK" Not a million miles away from "All Millwall fans are hooligans or wannabe hooligans or posting on messageboards of clubs they don't care about"[/quote]
I care about you lot, you're our naive little brother who we tease from time to time but generally spend our time protecting you from bigger boys. We've had to be a little nastier so the naughty boys like west ham, tottenham, cardiff et al pick fights with us rather than bullying our kind and polite little bro.
You think we're horrible and you act as the saintly son for the parents, but deep down you know you'd be lost without your big brother, someone you look up to and admire in certain ways but also know you've learnt from the mistakes we've made along the way.
Like all brothers we usually win the battles and make our little brothers cry, but we also know when to step back and let you shine (premiership years and the wins you had against us years ago), but now you've fallen off the saintly path somewhat with relegation, financial mess and throwing bottles at barmaids and we need to show you the right path by example.
Hopefully you'll look up to your older brother again and use him as model for you to rebuild and grow back into a young exciting person playing in the same playground again with their beloved older brother.
In the meantime we'll take over the mantle of bullying and embarrassing our cringeworthy and laughable cousin who lives down the road, Mr Palace. What a wanker he is. Holmesdale fucking Ultras. Don't make me laugh. Your older brother knows you'll raise a smile when he goes to your cousins home playground and takes the piss.[/quote]
Comments
I thought everyone on here have already said that the fellas concerned aren't trouble at all and wouldn't have anything to hide?
They've just been grassed up falsely by the Charlton FIO but you think they have stuff to hide rather than OB making things up?
I agree that it's better to follow this up after the event and it may be worth doing that....but it can lead to more hassle and that's something that does play on people's minds.
But you are probably right. So much better to just piss and whinge on here than do anything constructive about it.
I know that the group i started going with nearly 20 years ago would now by default fit into the 'risk element' as the police now grade, yet we were not hooligans. Where then though you had a friendly PC Rogers on your case, gently telling you to behave and that you're being watched, nowadays it seems a lot more hardline and definitive.
A few of that group got into trouble, some learned from it, a couple of others got attracted further into those sort of things, but the vast majority generally drift through and with maturity simply move on to being 'your average fan'. There will be loads of respectable posters on here who at that point in their life would now be branded as 'risk element' and you would laugh about it now because your lives since have moved you away from those laddish aspects.
Any form of young group of lads on the sauce and being a bit boisterous will always stand out more at Charlton than at other clubs becase of the huge different cross-section of support we attract, particularly at away games.
I know some of the charges and bans some of the discussed group have picked up other the last few years have been justified, but i also know that a lot probably haven't and have been as a result of guilt by association.
If you go in a group nowadays you have to be sooo switched on as you can be punished for even the most minor step out of line so quickly and so severely. The common sense approach, or at least the warning that you used to get years ago from the PCs that you may be drifting into trouble and need to take a step back and re-evaluate quickly, seems to have completely vanished.
As for the main subject of the thread, it caused a few people to laugh because they can see how ridiculous the situation sounds to those who have met the individual. Firstly, that of all the idiots i have met down at Charlton, none of them would deliberately throw a bottle at a barmaid, and secondly if the event did actually occur, you can be sure as hell it wouldn't be someone like Nathan Prior and Mike, who were then treated like well, criminals.
Couple of serious points,
1. Nathan and Mike, if you are really unhappy speak to Mick Everett at the Club. He will know if you are on any list or not and will be able to give you the name of the police officers, who all seemed quite reasonable when I had dealings with them, to talk to about it.
2. The Charlton Football Spotter didn't "grass" anyone up. The Police can't be grasses. They may or may not have mis-identified someone but it seems they were told it was Nathan by another Charlton fan.
It seems this person is known to other people on here. If Charlton fans want to do something to help Nathan and Mike then they should tell them, as a whisper, that person's name. Call it grassing if you like but don't then blame the police for getting it wrong if you prefer to defend the person who did throw the bottle.
All well and good but that approach did not stop football violence. It may have worked on some who drifted close to it and thankfully heeded the warnings but the violence continued.
It was the use of planned operations, collecting masses of evidence, use of undercover officers and CCTV plus much longer sentences that brought about a reduction in football related violence. The by-product of that was that the innocent suffered as well as we were filmed, searched and treated as potential hooligans by many police forces.
Who do I mostly blame for that? Not the police (although they have been in the wrong sometimes) but the idiots from every club who thought it was OK to carry out acting the way they do, some of them well into their forties and even taking their teenage sons along with them.
And what makes me laugh is that is is often the same people who call for longer prison sentences and tougher crack downs on every other type of criminal (because that is what they are) who suddenly turn into liberal Guardian reader types waving the human rights act while balancing chips on both shoulders whenever anyone they know gets done for football violence.
Anyone who has been goingto footie pre days of segregation etc etc knows they have always taken liberties-----always lied in court and generally looked at football supporters as an easy nick.
Used to be a cage at The Valley where they haeld you then put ypu in the van gave you a thumping and let you go. Now its "plead guilty and get a fine or take your chances and get sent down".
I do agree that we want the OB to smash the great unwashed to pulp (then burn the remains) but leave us to do the havoc and mayhem without them geting involved and yes of course its sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo double standards.Thing is though if football fans had pressure groups like some of the more "set about" other groups we would have been able to prove 100s and 100s of abuses of power.
OB in the UK do a vey very very difficult and at times impossible job. Not only could i not do it re IQ etc but dealing with the dregs of the UK day in day out would turn me into a death squad on me own. I just think the UK OB are KAK -----------------IMHO.
Not a million miles away from
"All football fans are hooligans"
Edited it...now it's true....
I care about you lot, you're our naive little brother who we tease from time to time but generally spend our time protecting you from bigger boys. We've had to be a little nastier so the naughty boys like west ham, tottenham, cardiff et al pick fights with us rather than bullying our kind and polite little bro.
You think we're horrible and you act as the saintly son for the parents, but deep down you know you'd be lost without your big brother, someone you look up to and admire in certain ways but also know you've learnt from the mistakes we've made along the way.
Like all brothers we usually win the battles and make our little brothers cry, but we also know when to step back and let you shine (premiership years and the wins you had against us years ago), but now you've fallen off the saintly path somewhat with relegation, financial mess and throwing bottles at barmaids and we need to show you the right path by example.
Hopefully you'll look up to your older brother again and use him as model for you to rebuild and grow back into a young exciting person playing in the same playground again with their beloved older brother.
In the meantime we'll take over the mantle of bullying and embarrassing our cringeworthy and laughable cousin who lives down the road, Mr Palace. What a wanker he is. Holmesdale fucking Ultras. Don't make me laugh. Your older brother knows you'll raise a smile when he goes to your cousins home playground and takes the piss.
now thats funny
Go away Sparra or are you just on that river in Egypt?
Am beginning to wonder :-/
Thats just added a few extra police for that day!!!
Painting by Morgan Penn of some anonymous Milwall supporters, our beloved band of protecting brothers :-)
Great painting, captures them the way most of them want to be seen and what the wannabe's aspire to.
I think of them as the distant cousins you don't want to admit you are related to, who turn up at family do's and spoil it for everyone else without ever realising that people are embarrassed to be connected to them. They laugh at their own jokes too.
Nathan, complain to the the independent police complaints commission or whatever they're called.
Dont they look scary.
The reason the OB use them is because an incident's occurred, they don't know who did it and, as in Nat's case, no-one fingers the culprit therefore everyone gets roped in...
No point bitching on about it, just stay out of boozers on match days or if there's likely to be trouble move on....
Don't start getting all sensible on me. I don't wanna start agreeing with you now!!!!
;-)
Not a million miles away from
"All Millwall fans are hooligans or wannabe hooligans or posting on messageboards of clubs they don't care about"[/quote]
Edited it...now it's true....[/quote][/quote][/quote]
I care about you lot, you're our naive little brother who we tease from time to time but generally spend our time protecting you from bigger boys. We've had to be a little nastier so the naughty boys like west ham, tottenham, cardiff et al pick fights with us rather than bullying our kind and polite little bro.
You think we're horrible and you act as the saintly son for the parents, but deep down you know you'd be lost without your big brother, someone you look up to and admire in certain ways but also know you've learnt from the mistakes we've made along the way.
Like all brothers we usually win the battles and make our little brothers cry, but we also know when to step back and let you shine (premiership years and the wins you had against us years ago), but now you've fallen off the saintly path somewhat with relegation, financial mess and throwing bottles at barmaids and we need to show you the right path by example.
Hopefully you'll look up to your older brother again and use him as model for you to rebuild and grow back into a young exciting person playing in the same playground again with their beloved older brother.
In the meantime we'll take over the mantle of bullying and embarrassing our cringeworthy and laughable cousin who lives down the road, Mr Palace. What a wanker he is. Holmesdale fucking Ultras. Don't make me laugh. Your older brother knows you'll raise a smile when he goes to your cousins home playground and takes the piss.[/quote]
That is quite funny!