[cite]Posted By: seth plum[/cite]...I also have not seen enough to judge that Francis is better than Solly....how many on here can really say they have been able to do a decent comparison?
None, probably.
I agree with your other post that Solly needs to be judged properly on a run of league games at right back. He would have got that chance last season but for injury. Francis if he signs might not have had much of a pre-season, I wouldn't be surprised to see Solly start against Bournemouth.
Forgive me if I dont take a single line on the Daily Mail website as defintive proof that we have signed Francis. I'll wait for official confirmation before getting too excited.
As for the merits of players from the academy, sometimes reality bites. Simple fact is, we need to get out of this division asap. Playing Solly, Stavirinou, Basey, Mambo et al every week will not achieve that goal. Every player Parky has signed this summer is better than what we have available to us from the academy.
Are people seriously suggesting we shouldnt sign players like Jackson, Reid and possibly Francis on free transfers on the off chance that an academy player might step up?
Completely agree with Dave Rudd and have thought it for years. Our academy players on the whole look like boys. When you see other youth teams there are one or two slightly built lads but these are generally interspersed with big athletic boys who look much older. The modern game requires those attributes and we shouldnt loose sight of that.
Would be great if a largely home grown team could be competitive at this level. Simple fact is, it wont.
I've heard he is a good player, however even his manager said something along the lines of "If he was as good at defending as he is going forward he would be a great player". Doesn't give me a lot of confidence about his defensive qualities.
Even without the doubts about his height defending set pieces, he has been "done" on numerous occasions in pre-season by lower/non league opposition. I don't think it's a question of not being ready, but he was given a contract so perhaps Parky sees something in him in training that he didn't see in Harry Arter.
[cite]Posted By: ISawLeaburnScore[/cite]Sorry but I don't think Solly is there yet, and given his age I don't know if he ever quite will be. I've seen him a number of times and I don't think at his current level he should offer anything more than a utility squad player. Believe me I want to love and overrate him a tiny bit, as I do any kid from the academy, they should all merit a touch more praise and understanding but I don't think he's there yet and we can't afford to waste half a season experimenting, we have to be selfish.
Well summed up, ISaw.
It's easy to look at our home grown kids with sentiment and of course we all want them to do well.
But let's try looking at it through the manager's eyes.
If Parky is about to sign an experienced right back (and we assume, play him as 1st choice), then in his opinion Solly isn't quite ready. But the fact that Solly has just been given a new contract, must indicate that he is nevertheless highly rated at the club.
Everyone seems to have commented on Solly's lack of height and that he's been 'targeted' by opponents as the weak physical link in the side, whenever he has played. But he has tremendous reserves of determination and 'never-say-die' spirit ..... which may yet see him establish himself in the game.
Surprisingly, Solly has never been out on loan to gain 1st team experience elsewhere.
Maybe that's now what he needs?
Despite losing a number of key players during the summer, it's evident that the club is hell bent this season on giving it's best shot at winning promotion ........the manager will want to field his strongest team.
And that's what Parky is trying to do by signing Francis..
[cite]Posted By: harveys gardener[/cite]Even without the doubts about his height defending set pieces, he has been "done" on numerous occasions in pre-season by lower/non league opposition. I don't think it's a question of not being ready, but he was given a contract so perhaps Parky sees something in him in training that he didn't see in Harry Arter.
Arter had 5 players ahead of him a year ago which probably had more to do with it than ability.
[cite]Posted By: Madz[/cite]I've heard he is a good player, however even his manager said something along the lines of "If he was as good at defending as he is going forward he would be a great player". Doesn't give me a lot of confidence about his defensive qualities.
Completely agree with Dave Rudd and have thought it for years. Our academy players on the whole look like boys. When you see other youth teams there are one or two slightly built lads but these are generally interspersed with big athletic boys who look much older. The modern game requires those attributes and we shouldnt loose sight of that.
Would be great if a largely home grown team could be competitive at this level. Simple fact is, it wont.
It is certainly the case that for prestige purposes the 'bigger' clubs want to win matches at all levels, and they will trawl the kids/schools/youth to get the most physically developed lads who seem more like men than boys in order to win academy matches and youth tournaments and FA youth cup games. The slighter boys will often be overlooked because until they finish growing they're less likely to deliver wins to add to the status of their parent club. It may be that Mambo was initially taken on by us for that kind of reason. I remember that Ben Chorley (now landed up at Orient) was captain of Arsenals youth, but his career has not exactly been glorious, yet as a youngster he certainly fitted the 'man' category of youth player. I suppose Kevin Keegan began at Scunthorpe because as a youth he wasn't 'manly' enough, yet he eventually did well...on the other end of the spectrum is Charlie MacDonald who has carved a respectable career yet is a small bloke. Perhaps smaller blokes who do make it have something extra because they have had to battle extra hard when starting out.
Developing youth is not an exact science, but the harsh analysis of Chris Solly sits uncomfortably with me.
[cite]Posted By: harveys gardener[/cite]Even without the doubts about his height defending set pieces, he has been "done" on numerous occasions in pre-season by lower/non league opposition. I don't think it's a question of not being ready, but he was given a contract so perhaps Parky sees something in him in training that he didn't see in Harry Arter.
Arter had 5 players ahead of him a year ago which probably had more to do with it than ability.
and the fact that he had spent a whole season injured.
Regardless if Solly is good/not good enough, we need another a right back. If Solly gets injured, then we are having to pull someone out of position to play there. Same scenario with Elliot, though another keeper is more pressing at the moment.
[cite]Posted By: seth plum[/cite]...I also have not seen enough to judge that Francis is better than Solly....how many on here can really say they have been able to do a decent comparison?
I saw him in both games last year and was with a Shrimper for both games.
He is fairly tall and slim and has a very good dead ball delivery (something we are lacking since Basey and Shelvey's departures not to mention Richardson and Bailey)
He was whipping in some useful crosses and corners at the Valley and reminded me a little bit of Greg Halford - just hopefully less of a twat with it.
Defensively he was hurt by Reidy & Jackson last year but was exposed as they were a player short at the time.
My shrimper friend said at the Valley that when he is on song he is a really great player but was prone to the odd howler too
Based on what I've seen of them, of the Charlton Academy products still potentially at the club next season, I would say only Elliot and Basey are ready for week in week out involvement in the first 11.
I've seen both Solly and Wagy have good and bad games for us (Solly was particularly good at left back away to Walsall, but was widely highlighted as a week link exploited by Millwall in the mauling at the Toolbox).
If we're serious about promotion, it's no good going into next season with only one right winger and one right back, especially when they are both young and only really on the fringes of the starting 11 at the moment AND Solly has had a few injuries in his time.
As with all walks in life, you can expect no favours of favourable treatment. If Francis is better than Solly and available for money and wages we can afford then it's only right we sign him, regardless of who's academy he came through. It's then up to Solly to work at his game and fight for a place in the first team. Once he's good enough he'll get his shot and he will get chances as Parky showed last season he was willing to try the younger players when more senior pros were under performing.
[cite]Posted By: Swisdom[/cite]My shrimper friend said at the Valley that when he is on song he is a really great player but was prone to the odd howler too
The rub is, is that you get that with 95% of L1 players I think.
I think some people underrate Solly because they forget he had to fill in on the left in a couple of games when he started and didn't shine.
I think he's a good player and worth a run in the first team, but i don't know how much more Francis can offer. A good attacking full back makes a lot of difference to a team in the modern game, particularly if we end up with one up front.
Solly wouldnt have signed a two-year deal if the club didnt spot some potential, and hopefully the signing of another rb was part of the plan. At least Parkinson is approaching signings in a sensible way. Sure there are better players on the market there, but we could have done a lot worse.
Comments
I agree with your other post that Solly needs to be judged properly on a run of league games at right back. He would have got that chance last season but for injury. Francis if he signs might not have had much of a pre-season, I wouldn't be surprised to see Solly start against Bournemouth.
As for the merits of players from the academy, sometimes reality bites. Simple fact is, we need to get out of this division asap. Playing Solly, Stavirinou, Basey, Mambo et al every week will not achieve that goal. Every player Parky has signed this summer is better than what we have available to us from the academy.
Are people seriously suggesting we shouldnt sign players like Jackson, Reid and possibly Francis on free transfers on the off chance that an academy player might step up?
Completely agree with Dave Rudd and have thought it for years. Our academy players on the whole look like boys. When you see other youth teams there are one or two slightly built lads but these are generally interspersed with big athletic boys who look much older. The modern game requires those attributes and we shouldnt loose sight of that.
Would be great if a largely home grown team could be competitive at this level. Simple fact is, it wont.
Poor old, Large.
Well summed up, ISaw.
It's easy to look at our home grown kids with sentiment and of course we all want them to do well.
But let's try looking at it through the manager's eyes.
If Parky is about to sign an experienced right back (and we assume, play him as 1st choice), then in his opinion Solly isn't quite ready. But the fact that Solly has just been given a new contract, must indicate that he is nevertheless highly rated at the club.
Everyone seems to have commented on Solly's lack of height and that he's been 'targeted' by opponents as the weak physical link in the side, whenever he has played. But he has tremendous reserves of determination and 'never-say-die' spirit ..... which may yet see him establish himself in the game.
Surprisingly, Solly has never been out on loan to gain 1st team experience elsewhere.
Maybe that's now what he needs?
Despite losing a number of key players during the summer, it's evident that the club is hell bent this season on giving it's best shot at winning promotion ........the manager will want to field his strongest team.
And that's what Parky is trying to do by signing Francis..
Ah, but the best form of defence is attack !
It is certainly the case that for prestige purposes the 'bigger' clubs want to win matches at all levels, and they will trawl the kids/schools/youth to get the most physically developed lads who seem more like men than boys in order to win academy matches and youth tournaments and FA youth cup games. The slighter boys will often be overlooked because until they finish growing they're less likely to deliver wins to add to the status of their parent club. It may be that Mambo was initially taken on by us for that kind of reason. I remember that Ben Chorley (now landed up at Orient) was captain of Arsenals youth, but his career has not exactly been glorious, yet as a youngster he certainly fitted the 'man' category of youth player. I suppose Kevin Keegan began at Scunthorpe because as a youth he wasn't 'manly' enough, yet he eventually did well...on the other end of the spectrum is Charlie MacDonald who has carved a respectable career yet is a small bloke. Perhaps smaller blokes who do make it have something extra because they have had to battle extra hard when starting out.
Developing youth is not an exact science, but the harsh analysis of Chris Solly sits uncomfortably with me.
and the fact that he had spent a whole season injured.
I saw him in both games last year and was with a Shrimper for both games.
He is fairly tall and slim and has a very good dead ball delivery (something we are lacking since Basey and Shelvey's departures not to mention Richardson and Bailey)
He was whipping in some useful crosses and corners at the Valley and reminded me a little bit of Greg Halford - just hopefully less of a twat with it.
Defensively he was hurt by Reidy & Jackson last year but was exposed as they were a player short at the time.
My shrimper friend said at the Valley that when he is on song he is a really great player but was prone to the odd howler too
I've seen both Solly and Wagy have good and bad games for us (Solly was particularly good at left back away to Walsall, but was widely highlighted as a week link exploited by Millwall in the mauling at the Toolbox).
If we're serious about promotion, it's no good going into next season with only one right winger and one right back, especially when they are both young and only really on the fringes of the starting 11 at the moment AND Solly has had a few injuries in his time.
As with all walks in life, you can expect no favours of favourable treatment. If Francis is better than Solly and available for money and wages we can afford then it's only right we sign him, regardless of who's academy he came through. It's then up to Solly to work at his game and fight for a place in the first team. Once he's good enough he'll get his shot and he will get chances as Parky showed last season he was willing to try the younger players when more senior pros were under performing.
My Southend mate who slates all the players we've had from them, actually liked Francis and said he was gutted he left.
Throwing Solly in, at left back, at The Den, was hardly going to help him eh. . . .
Try looking at the very first post in this thread ....!!
;o)
You try and get the best two players you can for that position.
Francis was Southend's player of the year, and rumoured to be a decent player who was attracting Championship interest.
If we've signed him, i think its a decent signing.
I think he's a good player and worth a run in the first team, but i don't know how much more Francis can offer. A good attacking full back makes a lot of difference to a team in the modern game, particularly if we end up with one up front.
Nothin on SSN, nothing on the OS.... henry will nt be Pleased when he sees this!
source?