[cite]Posted By: BDL[/cite]England will never win anything so long as the Premier League remains so financially powerful. The German league backs their national team by the way they play, bring youth through and rest their players at vital times (Winter break).
[cite]Posted By: AllLeftFoot[/cite]A fan was interviewed outside the ground on Sky News a few minutes ago and said that we 'get taken to school' at every tournament, which is too true.
Problem is we never learn. The FA let loose a monster when they created the Premier League
The FA did not create the Premiership. It twas the clubs going for the big bucks.
We need to get our kids playing on 5-a-side pitches with smaller footballs like they do in Brazil and Holland to teach them to keep the ball on the ground and keep possession. What do you think an 8 year old kid is going to with a football on an 11 a side football pich if he picks the ball up in defence?
Hang on TRR, are you saying we've got 11 year old capable of getting the ball in defence!?!? If we have, then they need a call up cos it's more than Terry, Barry, Upson and Johnson did today.
Absolute shocking shower of sh*t performance. Completely sums up our entire world cup campaign - a bunch of individuals who are overrated and more interested in their money, flash cars and chavy wags.
And we as a nation expect too much from them. Cull the 'golden generation'.
It was the big clubs browbeating the FA, and it was dressed up as being beneficial for England (through fewer games etc) but it was always obvious that it was all about the big six (as they then were) pulling up the financial drawbridge on the others and for their own interests. The FA acquiesced to prevent a breakaway, if I remember correctly.
We never have and never will produce good enough footballers to compete. Blame the Shaven-headed Fathers on the touch-lines of kids football, screaming "get it up field", the Press and the FA. I was at a loss at why we spent 6million on a coach when over the last forty years our record compared to Brazil, Argentine, Germany, France, Italy, Holland and now Spain is pathetic. Poland and Sweden have been in more world cup semi finals then we have and Denmark and Greece have won the Euros.
Sure 66 at home, Euro 96 at home (2 wins, 3 draws excluding pens) and World Cup 90, when we were outplayed by Belgium and Cemeroon on the way to the semi-finals is all we can call on and yet blind aresholes still state that we do produce good enough footballers when it is clear we do not. I give up I really do!
[cite]Posted By: The Red Robin[/cite]The only world class English player is Ashley Cole. It starts from the age of 5 upwards and we just haven't got a clue in this country how to coach kids to be comfortable with a football at their feet.
Because, even in the youth leagues, coaches prefer strong, teararse, hard-tackling players to those with touch, the capacity to dribble and pass, and good footballing brains. It won't change.
It's hugely cultural in this country about what we want from our footballers. When the Germans failed in 2000 they took the chance to sort there youth set up out, and to ruthlessly get immigrant kids who had talent to play for Germany, like Ozil, Boateng and Gomez.
Terrible performance and yet again these so called 'world class' players lack passion for England. No doubt they will all be amazing in the Premier League season though.
Some of our players do light up the champions league and premiership - I'm not sure if it's not the weight of expectation that weighs on them too - but I've not seen players like Ashley Cole look so slow and leaden footed.
Needing Barry back? Do me a favour, for the "protection" he gives the side, I give you a carthorse who lost 10 yards in a footrace against Ozil and gave up. Glenn Johnson looked petrified and Terry and Upson were shown up for what they are.
However, why Rooney failed to perform I'm baffled by - the rest of the professional players and coaches can't be wrong - they've watch him play and regard him as world class. Gerrard won a Champions League final on his own and he should play in his favoured positon.
Heskey? Wright Phillips? Lennon? They don't have the nous or ability for International football.
Walcott may disappear up his own arse at times, but 2-1 down chasing a game - who do you bring on? Adam Johnson comes in, give him the chance to sew down the left hand side of midfield, change the shape, system and give some of our youth a chance and the players who are comfortable on the ball - Joe Cole must play, time for Lampard to go, Barry is too slow, we have to win the ball back, press high up and play high tempo football and with half the side we have, that's just not possible.
I don't buy the theory we're the best team in the world, but I also don't buy we're the worst either - we were very good in the qualifiers - but we don't have the ability to compete technically or mentally at the very highest level.
[cite]Posted By: The Red Robin[/cite]The only world class English player is Ashley Cole. It starts from the age of 5 upwards and we just haven't got a clue in this country how to coach kids to be comfortable with a football at their feet.
He was utter gash today. I suspect we have different views of "world class". In The Sun they compiled what the English public thought was the best team of the WC (at the start) and it featured only two non premiership players and 6 Englishmen.
[cite]Posted By: Rothko[/cite]The Fa created the Premier League, with an aim of improving the England team.
The Bundersliga isn't the best league in Europe for no reason, full stadiums, home ownership of clubs, teams full of Germans
There was no EPL in the 70s when England failed to qualify for a tournament, it's simply not the reason. I know for a fact that the EPL has the highest attendances in Europe so playing in front of full stadia has nothing to do with the English failure.
Bournemouth's got it right. I posted a shocking statistic on here the other day and nobody said a dickie about it. In the World Cup England has only beaten a team that's previously won the world cup twice and only once away from England. That was Argentina - a team that didn't make it out of the group - with a penalty, following a dive. The facts are there, England doesn't perform against the best sides at tournaments. Blame the linesman, the weather, the ball, the quality of cheese, whatever you want to appease the masses with, but if anyone actually wants to solve the problem, then it's more fundamental. I've no idea what it is, but I suspect rating average players like J. Cole, A Cole, Terry and Lampard as "world class" (as many do) is a gross error of judgement and doesn't help.
There was a thread on here about the best forward in the world a while back and the majority rated Rooney ahead of Torres and almost everyone thought they were both miles ahead of Villa. That kind of mass lack-of-awareness, is dreadful.
[cite]Posted By: Rothko[/cite]It's hugely cultural in this country about what we want from our footballers. When the Germans failed in 2000 they took the chance to sort there youth set up out, and to ruthlessly get immigrant kids who had talent to play for Germany, like Ozil, Boateng and Gomez.
Agree that they've seen a problem and tackled it, but all the people you've listed are German born. Is it much different to players from Jamaican families playing for England? Who has England missed out on that's elected to play for another nation?
I'd understand if Ozil had opted for Turkey. Boetang's brother opted for Ghana (could two brothers line up against each other in a WC final?, and they're doing OK).
Bizzare, I am usually devastated when we get knocked out of a world cup, I do not feel those emotions today. Maybe Swindon took so much out of me, and has made me so thick skinned that today was never going to touch me in that way.
Some shockingly inept and terrible football..... Rooney seemed to be in a trance all the tournament, never was so much expected, and so little acheived by an English footballer, mind you it was hardly Lampards finset hour/s As for some of the fringe players like Lennon and Wright Phillips, sorry well short at this level. As a defence we were inept, as a mid field we created nothing, and as a striking force, we did not perform, with the ball bouncing off Rooney, who seemd 2 yards off his pace, got shoved off the ball, and gave the ball away far, far too many times. I am not too sure the German defence was that solid, not that we bothered to test them before the first 25 minutes was it!. I think I will leave it there, but Capello do the right thing and step down........
[cite]Posted By: ken from bexley[/cite]...but Capello do the right thing and step down........
I don't disagree with anything you say Ken but I believe that we need a fundamental change in our approach to coaching and youth development system rather than a 'quick fix' sacking of the manager and then we start all over doing what we've always done in the same old ways. No question Capello's made mistakes (and BIG one's at that) but ultimately it was always going to take a footballing genius to make significant progress with this lot of players. I actually thought that Capello might have been that man, given his record, but it was not to be I suppose...
The reaction of the players at the final whistle was interesting. Not surrounding the ref or generally punching the pitch, but shaking hands with a team that they knew had outclasssed them.
We could learn so much off the Germans. How do they manage to get a group of players to perform so much better as a team than one would expect? How come few if any of their players are doing Nike adverts and all that other rubbish yet seem to be there or thereabouts when the prizes are being handed out?
I don't know. But it's a question we need to answer or we will be forever in the position of semi-gallent users.
1 - THAT goal today is being linked with an 'injustice' for the 1966 one. No comparison possible. Today's one was unquestionable whereas no evidence has ever been shown the ball had, or had not, crossed the line in the 66 final. 2 - Today's goal will be history and will obviously trigger changes. The wisest might be to have video ONLY inside goal. Should satisfy both pros and cons. 3 - All your disgruntled comments on the game are understandable : supporters' frustration and humiliation. We know a thing or three about this feeling at Charlton. However unwillingly, we could also look at it from another angle. Attacking football, goals, drama. Compare this to the last half-hour of Spain-Chile. 4 - Big cheers to MiserableOld. His PRAYER made my day. Superb.
I feel that the FA create the monster that is England. There are players that would give their right leg to represent England with greater passion than that pile of shit. The only downside being, they would not sell so many posters, etc. Rooney should never have started. If it wasto be 4-4-2, then surely Defoe - Crouch. I have witnessed a (ex) Wset Brom captain put in a better preformance than the lot of those pricks. Defoe - Heskey?
Sums up the majority of England's problems for me. Can't even sub the ''''big guns''', let alone drop them. We'll never change. We'll never win anything.
Upson was extremely poor ( as usual apart from the Slovenia game)
Glen Johnson was well overweight when selected for the squad - his arse was the size of Jimmy Floyd Moneybanks - and whilst he lost some weight, he was clearly never up to it.I'd have preferred Gary Neville (don't kill me).
Terry was poor & whilst I can't stand the guy, having both defenders go missing either side of him, couldn't have helped his game.
James & A Cole played well.
Lampard had a good game (unusually)
Gerrard, Barry , Milner were average
Rooney was again poor & Defoe didn't do much.
The main problems were Upson & Johnson and getting caught on the break, which is surely down to the Manager.
However, there are certain countries that are always more successful than us & I can't see that changing.
Germany, Brazil, Argentina (usually Italy) nearly always perform well.
England , Spain, Holland & Portugal usually fall by the wayside.
TBH I fully expected us to lose - it's the hope that kills you.
Sums up the majority of England's problems for me. Can't even sub the ''''big guns''', let alone drop them. We'll never change. We'll never win anything.
That for me is one of the fundamentals that needs to change. We've had too many players over recent years, one in particular that springs to my mind, that are virtually untouchable because of the pressure that is put on the manager by the FA and the media to select them game after game regardless of the system or shape the manager wants to play or the players own form. Can you imagine the fuss the red tops and the tele in particular would have made if Rooney had been dropped for this game? Yet he was clearly unfit, widely out of form and hadn't made a single worthwhile contribution in the 3 games leading up to it.
Well, I thought we were bad but we just played a team that in all honesty are not very good and managed to get well and trully tonked.
What the heck was that? We could have been and should have been out by half time. Absolute shamful effort.
Even drinking dont make it better.
I don't disagree with anything you say Ken but I believe that we need a fundamental change in our approach to coaching and youth development system rather than a 'quick fix' sacking of the manager and then we start all over doing what we've always done in the same old ways.
I agree think that you need to do both, but both are the reasponsability of the FA, not the Premier league or Sky, or any other scape goat!.
Capello I am sure is a man, who has been successful, and a man with his own style of management. No good having good qualificational games and claiming not to take unfit players, and then do so. I do not think that Peter Crouch is England's answer to our lack of goals, but I am convinced that Heskey is not. What was that all about!..... The critics wanted Gerrard behind Rooney, seemed like a good option, one that Capello refussed to consider. I have no idea why Rooney failed so miserably!. David James is considered to be our best player today, by the critics..... but he is not going to be near the next world cup squad is he!. Terry with all his faults, both on and off the field's position looks under threat with Capello, and Rio Ferdinand looks as if his days are numbered! as far as England are concerned. Cole, Upson, Barry, King, probably Cole from that lot, the wingers! Not convinced with lat lot as well. So we are left with Wallcott, and the likes of Scott Parker thought not good enough to go!, and the like of Ashley Young, etc etc...... After saying all that who do we replace the manager with!. Now that is a challenge!
Comments
The FA did not create the Premiership. It twas the clubs going for the big bucks.
The Bundersliga isn't the best league in Europe for no reason, full stadiums, home ownership of clubs, teams full of Germans
And we as a nation expect too much from them. Cull the 'golden generation'.
I wouldn't be surprised if deep down everyone of them 23 players in the England squad actually don't like playing for England
Sure 66 at home, Euro 96 at home (2 wins, 3 draws excluding pens) and World Cup 90, when we were outplayed by Belgium and Cemeroon on the way to the semi-finals is all we can call on and yet blind aresholes still state that we do produce good enough footballers when it is clear we do not. I give up I really do!
Because, even in the youth leagues, coaches prefer strong, teararse, hard-tackling players to those with touch, the capacity to dribble and pass, and good footballing brains. It won't change.
You should see the cricketers..................
wtf - last I heard they were coasting to victory.
Terrible performance and yet again these so called 'world class' players lack passion for England. No doubt they will all be amazing in the Premier League season though.
Needing Barry back? Do me a favour, for the "protection" he gives the side, I give you a carthorse who lost 10 yards in a footrace against Ozil and gave up. Glenn Johnson looked petrified and Terry and Upson were shown up for what they are.
However, why Rooney failed to perform I'm baffled by - the rest of the professional players and coaches can't be wrong - they've watch him play and regard him as world class. Gerrard won a Champions League final on his own and he should play in his favoured positon.
Heskey? Wright Phillips? Lennon? They don't have the nous or ability for International football.
Walcott may disappear up his own arse at times, but 2-1 down chasing a game - who do you bring on? Adam Johnson comes in, give him the chance to sew down the left hand side of midfield, change the shape, system and give some of our youth a chance and the players who are comfortable on the ball - Joe Cole must play, time for Lampard to go, Barry is too slow, we have to win the ball back, press high up and play high tempo football and with half the side we have, that's just not possible.
I don't buy the theory we're the best team in the world, but I also don't buy we're the worst either - we were very good in the qualifiers - but we don't have the ability to compete technically or mentally at the very highest level.
There was no EPL in the 70s when England failed to qualify for a tournament, it's simply not the reason. I know for a fact that the EPL has the highest attendances in Europe so playing in front of full stadia has nothing to do with the English failure.
Bournemouth's got it right. I posted a shocking statistic on here the other day and nobody said a dickie about it. In the World Cup England has only beaten a team that's previously won the world cup twice and only once away from England. That was Argentina - a team that didn't make it out of the group - with a penalty, following a dive. The facts are there, England doesn't perform against the best sides at tournaments. Blame the linesman, the weather, the ball, the quality of cheese, whatever you want to appease the masses with, but if anyone actually wants to solve the problem, then it's more fundamental. I've no idea what it is, but I suspect rating average players like J. Cole, A Cole, Terry and Lampard as "world class" (as many do) is a gross error of judgement and doesn't help.
There was a thread on here about the best forward in the world a while back and the majority rated Rooney ahead of Torres and almost everyone thought they were both miles ahead of Villa. That kind of mass lack-of-awareness, is dreadful.
I'd understand if Ozil had opted for Turkey. Boetang's brother opted for Ghana (could two brothers line up against each other in a WC final?, and they're doing OK).
As for some of the fringe players like Lennon and Wright Phillips, sorry well short at this level. As a defence we were inept, as a mid field we created nothing, and as a striking force, we did not perform, with the ball bouncing off Rooney, who seemd 2 yards off his pace, got shoved off the ball, and gave the ball away far, far too many times. I am not too sure the German defence was that solid, not that we bothered to test them before the first 25 minutes was it!. I think I will leave it there, but Capello do the right thing and step down........
I don't disagree with anything you say Ken but I believe that we need a fundamental change in our approach to coaching and youth development system rather than a 'quick fix' sacking of the manager and then we start all over doing what we've always done in the same old ways. No question Capello's made mistakes (and BIG one's at that) but ultimately it was always going to take a footballing genius to make significant progress with this lot of players. I actually thought that Capello might have been that man, given his record, but it was not to be I suppose...
We could learn so much off the Germans. How do they manage to get a group of players to perform so much better as a team than one would expect? How come few if any of their players are doing Nike adverts and all that other rubbish yet seem to be there or thereabouts when the prizes are being handed out?
I don't know. But it's a question we need to answer or we will be forever in the position of semi-gallent users.
has ever been shown the ball had, or had not, crossed the line in the 66 final.
2 - Today's goal will be history and will obviously trigger changes. The wisest might be to have video ONLY inside goal. Should satisfy both pros and cons.
3 - All your disgruntled comments on the game are understandable : supporters' frustration and humiliation. We know a thing or three about this feeling at
Charlton. However unwillingly, we could also look at it from another angle. Attacking football, goals, drama. Compare this to the last half-hour of Spain-Chile.
4 - Big cheers to MiserableOld. His PRAYER made my day. Superb.
There are players that would give their right leg to represent England with greater passion than that pile of shit.
The only downside being, they would not sell so many posters, etc.
Rooney should never have started. If it wasto be 4-4-2, then surely Defoe - Crouch.
I have witnessed a (ex) Wset Brom captain put in a better preformance than the lot of those pricks.
Defoe - Heskey?
Sums up the majority of England's problems for me. Can't even sub the ''''big guns''', let alone drop them. We'll never change. We'll never win anything.
Glen Johnson was well overweight when selected for the squad - his arse was the size of Jimmy Floyd Moneybanks - and whilst he lost some weight, he was clearly never up to it.I'd have preferred Gary Neville (don't kill me).
Terry was poor & whilst I can't stand the guy, having both defenders go missing either side of him, couldn't have helped his game.
James & A Cole played well.
Lampard had a good game (unusually)
Gerrard, Barry , Milner were average
Rooney was again poor & Defoe didn't do much.
The main problems were Upson & Johnson and getting caught on the break, which is surely down to the Manager.
However, there are certain countries that are always more successful than us & I can't see that changing.
Germany, Brazil, Argentina (usually Italy) nearly always perform well.
England , Spain, Holland & Portugal usually fall by the wayside.
TBH I fully expected us to lose - it's the hope that kills you.
That for me is one of the fundamentals that needs to change. We've had too many players over recent years, one in particular that springs to my mind, that are virtually untouchable because of the pressure that is put on the manager by the FA and the media to select them game after game regardless of the system or shape the manager wants to play or the players own form. Can you imagine the fuss the red tops and the tele in particular would have made if Rooney had been dropped for this game? Yet he was clearly unfit, widely out of form and hadn't made a single worthwhile contribution in the 3 games leading up to it.
What the heck was that? We could have been and should have been out by half time. Absolute shamful effort.
Even drinking dont make it better.
I agree think that you need to do both, but both are the reasponsability of the FA, not the Premier league or Sky, or any other scape goat!.
Capello I am sure is a man, who has been successful, and a man with his own style of management. No good having good qualificational games and claiming not to take unfit players, and then do so. I do not think that Peter Crouch is England's answer to our lack of goals, but I am convinced that Heskey is not. What was that all about!..... The critics wanted Gerrard behind Rooney, seemed like a good option, one that Capello refussed to consider. I have no idea why Rooney failed so miserably!. David James is considered to be our best player today, by the critics..... but he is not going to be near the next world cup squad is he!. Terry with all his faults, both on and off the field's position looks under threat with Capello, and Rio Ferdinand looks as if his days are numbered! as far as England are concerned. Cole, Upson, Barry, King, probably Cole from that lot, the wingers! Not convinced with lat lot as well. So we are left with Wallcott, and the likes of Scott Parker thought not good enough to go!, and the like of Ashley Young, etc etc...... After saying all that who do we replace the manager with!. Now that is a challenge!