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Would we have given Curbs six seasons in today's climate?

In his first six seasons in charge (four joint with Gritty), Charlton finished between 5th and 15th in Div 2. The first time we made the playoffs (96), we lost meekly to Palarse. If the internet had been around then and expectations had been at the level they are now, I very much doubt he'd have been given the time to build the team, squad and club that led to promotion in 98.

Patience is a virtue that is sadly lacking in football these days.
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Comments

  • Are you saying we should give PP more time?!!
  • Been thinking about this for a while. And the simple answer is no.

    Football and the surrounding environment has changed though and people who don't get immediate success are under pressure regardless of club, their history and their stature.

    Back in the day the rewards were not as great, and neither were the losses, totally different now.
  • are you saying that gritty was holding us back?
  • So are you saying give parky 6 years? Curbs was a very special talent who had the chance to build and mould a club around his beliefs and structure and boy how it payed off and look what's happend since it ended.. parky has built the current team there 90% his signings, I had complete and utter trust in curbs sadly I don't with parky, I can't see anyone doing another curbs for unless its a chris powell or steve brown type, we need to be back in charlton hands, pards was palace and we know it ditto for dowie, les reed would be an exclent director of football but not a manager and parky and breaker well there as much charlton as julian dicks and sammy igoe.
  • [cite]Posted By: WSS[/cite]Been thinking about this for a while. And the simple answer is no.

    Football and the surrounding environment has changed though and people who don't get immediate success are under pressure regardless of club, their history and their stature.

    Back in the day the rewards were not as great, and neither were the losses, totally different now.

    Exactly. Hull City are a case in point. 8 years ago they were in league 2, they get promoted to the premier league and stay there against the odds, then because they have a bad season the manager gets sacked even though he did amazingly well to get them there and then keep them up.
    Billy Davies got Derby promoted well ahead of schedule, then was sacked before xmas after a bad start in the premier, what do chairman actually expect. No manager gets time these days.
  • he didn't get relegated and he didn't fall below expectations
  • [cite]Posted By: adamtheaddick[/cite]So are you saying give parky 6 years? Curbs was a very special talent who had the chance to build and mould a club around his beliefs and structure and boy how it payed off and look what's happend since it ended
    Wasn't the point more that no one really knew Curbs was a "special talent" in his first few seasons? Not saying Parky is or will ever be, but there is certainly little patience in football any more. If Parky goes and a new manager is mid table in a years time, there would be cries to sack him as well. One season isn't really a lot of time to properly build a team.
  • Parky has been part of the furniture for the last 3 seasons at least hasn't he?
  • edited March 2010
    are you saying that dowie should have been given more time rather than 12 weeks and that in hindsight his brother going into the dressing room wasn't the end of the world and that we wouldn't be struggling now to be getting out of the third division if he were stil here?
  • The circumstances when Curbs and Gritty took over were that we did not have our own ground and were lodging at Selhurst and Upton Parks. We then had to develop a ground in tandem with competing in the second tier of English football.

    Most intelligent fans recognised that fact and made allowance accordingly.

    Sadly, nearly 20 years on, too many do not appearto have the intelligence to realise that Dowie and Pardew spunked all the parachute money on cr** and that Parkinson is therefore trying to compete with little or no money.

    The circumstances for both Curbishley and Parkinson are similar yet different.

    The attitude of the fans is very different.
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  • [cite]Posted By: Oakster[/cite]Parky has been part of the furniture for the last 3 seasons at least hasn't he?
    Curbishley was at the club even longer before he finally won promotion.
  • 90% of fans dont like parky...Im not one of them! I have huge respect for the guy.
    NO1 knows whats going on behind the scenes at our club with regard to financial matters and other cost cutting measures. He has had to use free agents and loan signings from day 1 at the club and still managed to get us in the running for promotion this year. I would feel very different if he had gone the Pardew way and spent money on most of the squad...but he hasnt! The fact of the matter is there is NO1 available who is better than Parky for us at the moment or would want to come to a club whose got no money to spend and 11 players out of contract at the end of this season. People really have to get a grip and realise the days of Di Canio, Robinson, Mendonca, Bent etc are over, they are the past, its the future that counts now we are a LEAGUE ONE club! i can see a good future for our football club coming in the next few years and all our fans need to do is back the team and management whoever they are in the years to come!
  • Are we talking about the same manager/players?....im assuming you saw saturdays performance?!!!
  • Len - thank you, as you've put the comparison into words better than I can.
  • we were a poor club whose main aim was to get back to the valley and then try and build a team under curbs/gritt the budgets which they/ he managed us under weren't at the top end of what was being spent by clubs in the division(s) and miracles were performed ...
    dowie got given a reasonable budget (premier league standards) bought some shit but got given only 12 games and was told his own backroom staff ....
    les reed lovely bloke and all that ...
    pardew got given the biggest budget in the championship and f**ked up massively...
    parkinson has a wage bill in the top 3 , i know he has spent no money but at this level the dough was done on wages/signing on fees... dailly and co wouldn't have come for nothing....


    if we were poor payers and been playing in this league for a few years then yeah have as long as you want but any manager with some spunk about him would have produced a better effort than getting us relegated so far adrift from the pack last season
  • Couldn't agree more with Len. Parky and the teams performance over the whole season, not just the weekend, is down to the fact we are working on a zero budget. Another difference between Curbs and Parkys reigns is that Curbs had a club who were looking to progress, Parky is at a club who are saddled with a massive amount of debt and are simply trying to survive.

    I'm not a fan of Parky, as I can't see any improvement in the first team, we seem to have got worse. But I can't see any other proven alternatives.
  • [cite]Posted By: oohaahmortimer[/cite]if we were poor payers and been playing in this league for a few years then yeah have as long as you want but any manager with some spunk about him would have produced a better effort than getting us relegated so far adrift from the pack last season
    We were a mess last season and I still think it was a harder job than you're suggesting. Yes a better manager would have done more, but last season is irrelevant now. Wrong manager to keep us up, but he's hardly done a bad job at rebuilding the squad. Not great, but he could have wasted that wage budget on more rubbish, we wouldn't have got much better than players like Richardson, Dailly and Sodje.

    Yes he's got one of the biggest wage budgets in the league, and we're third. Most fans were expecting mid table at best, some thought he'd take us down again. Not gone well recently, but we've still got 3 wins in 5. Judging him on results, as often pointed out last season after Waggott(?) said he would be, suggests he's done a decent job this season. Far from perfect, we should be playing better, but there are 10 games left and we still have a chance of promotion.

    A chance of promotion with 10 games to go is what most would have settled for in the summer.
  • everyone thought bailey, shelvey and burton would be gone and there would be no budget for new players(wages) but fairplay to the board they dug deep (unexpectedly) so in the summer we feared the worst but once the transfer window had shut expectations were a lot higher imo!
  • Fair point but for some that meant winning the league, and with the weaknesses in our squad, I think that was an unrealistic expectation. We aren't playing well but we have a chance of 2nd place or the play-offs, so judging him on results, we're where we should be.
  • Sounds like some are forgetting the 0-4 stuffings Curbs' teams sometimes got at the hands of contemporary clubs?
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  • As a London club our wages are likely to be higher than most, particularly the further down the league we fall, to attract any sort of player so a bit unfair to throw that one at Parky in my view.
  • [cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite]The circumstances when Curbs and Gritty took over were that we did not have our own ground and were lodging at Selhurst and Upton Parks. We then had to develop a ground in tandem with competing in the second tier of English football.

    Most intelligent fans recognised that fact and made allowance accordingly.

    The attitude of the fans is very different.

    In a nutshell Len!

    Back in the heady days of Curbishleys reign, & including the start of it, with Gritty, the small core of fans knew that the main aim was to get back home, & that any performance(match by match or seasonal) above the odds was an added bonus, rather than what a lot of general football fans feel these days, is a god given right.

    We would've loved to have really gone against the odds 'Lennie style', & back up to the top flight earlier than we did, but the events that tickled our 'nads, such as the Valley Party upping the stakes of our cause to get back home, nearly making the play-offs in 91/92, finally getting back home, victory over Blackburn in the FA Cup, the East Stand being built, FA Cup Quarter Final(90's)the Valley being developed further, etc, were still great in their own right, given our then circumstances.

    The weight of expectation these days is ridiculous, from fans, from chairmen, board, media, etc, but unfortunately, that really has come down to the money & the gross overspending/inflation that has infected the game for the past 18 years(hello Sky, hello blackburn-who got the ball rolling).

    It seems that If you spend a lot, you should either have success, or manage to survive(if promoted to the top flight), but obviously there are no guarantees. It does also hinge on the manager & how good they are.

    Case in point, Phil Brown. With the cash he has had, by todays terms he should have done a lot better than where Hull are now. But since their initial spurt at the start of their Premier League life, they have been nothing short of abysmal really. Survival was the biggest factor for them last year, & goal achieved(just), should have built on that this year.
    I think a better manager would have done an awful lot more with the cash & players Brown has had at his disposal.(Same goes for Roy Keane & Steve Bruce at Sunderland - the later Is still in the process of building I guess)

    Parkinson has, in theory, done a good job in getting us where we are(this season) with the constraints he has had, but with some of the players he has had at his disposal in the 2nd tier & now 3rd(still a wee chunk of talent in the side), he could have done a bit better(& thats being kind- arrows aimed mainly toward last season.)

    The real test will be next year, if we end up staying in this division & the 'name players' depart.(Heres hoping it doesn't come to that!)

    But, finally, getting back to the original topic question, there would be so many factors to consider. If we were trying to get back to the Valley now & we were trying to consolidate our position in the 2nd tier & Curbishley was doing that, then I believe yes, he would have 6 years building us!

    But 2nd tier, & the money/opportunities Pardew was given, & 6 years in that league(with some further investment), then probably not.
  • Thats a really interesting question, Weegie, and some equally interesting answers. I agree with a lot of what Len and Stefco write (guess we may be the same generation). I think there was something else too.
    Because of how we had come back to the The Valley there was this unusual direct communication between groups of fans and the Board. Thankfully Richard Murray realised it would be smart to keep it going. They found ways to get quite important messages out about the situation and their ambitions, to small groups of fans, knowing those fans would "pass it on". Voice of the Valley played a crucial role. Later on, (97) there was the internet mailing list. Three directors were regularly on there (Stevens, Sumners, Whitehand). There were all the financial initiatives, which helped keep up the dialogue, and the supporter on the board. People understood the situation and where the club was going. There was no money, so Curbs was seen to be doing the best he could. Then finally they found him some money, and what did the silly bugger do? Blow it on Clive Mendonca :-))). We were all ecstatic, but even then, I dont remember people starting the season saying we'd get promotion. It carried on this way for a while, even after we reached the promised land. In 1999 I had the surreal unforgettable experience of picking up the phone in my Prague apartment to find Richard Murray wanting to explain me exactly why we were selling Danny Mills. Somewhere, round about 2004,I think, we slowly started to lose each other. I mean the fans and the Board, and Curbs in the middle.
    And you know as I write this, it makes me feel really sad, because it reminds me what a tremendous, perhaps unique club we had in the Curbs years. Thats why i dont read threads entitled "Murray out". I'd rather read Stuwall's latest.
  • Nice few posts here.

    Football has changed far too much.
  • Good thread, football has changed but we should shpw the intelligence to back parky, I remember some bad days in the curbs years before he found the formula,
  • I'm with you on that superclive!!!
  • Accepting hes had no money, if you're telling me that the best he and his scouts could up with were Mooney and Sodje ? Theyre nigh on Conference standard (but without the work rate).

    No one minds if you have no money as long as 100% sweat and blood is given and you GRAFT, as thats the Charlton way.

    What I saw Saturday has never made me more angry when supporting Charlton.

    If a team reflects a manager, well sorry but Parky can do one because that was heartless, gutless and bloody shameful.

    Enough cop outs and excuses, theyre 'professionals' and being paid good money for this league.
  • [cite]Posted By: falconwood_1[/cite]Accepting hes had no money, if you're telling me that the best he and his scouts could up with were Mooney and Sodje ? Theyre nigh on Conference standard (but without the work rate).
    Are strikers not the hardest position to find? Curbishley struggled to find good strikers, and he money to spend on them. I know what you're saying but we could only really afford loans from clubs in higher divisions. Any strikers doing well lower down will cost money, even if it's just £100-200k. Can't be easy finding good goalscorers who also have a decent all round game when anyone that good will already be playing regular football.
  • well apart from bent,mendonca and hunt
  • And Di Canio, that's four in how many seasons?
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