And it seems that, according to those Palace fans, it is we who have short memories. You have to wonder what world they live in, really. Some of them are still convinced Jordan has done no wrong.
Looking forward to 27 Jan and their winding up petition quickly followed by the low low sale price for Moses even more now : - )
[cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]The hypocracy of some of their fans is quite breathtaking.
If Charlton fans said things along the lines of 'hope you go bust', they would have a coronory. Yet owing us money is seen as something good and funny.
That money is important to us and may impact on what we do in the window.
They can post as many clown pictures as they like, but it is their own club that is currently the complete laughing stock.
Lets see how much those clowns laugh if their situation worsens.
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to AFKA again
They moaned that we "stole" players from them last time they were in admin yet their club accepted the bids, derisory or not, and they think its OK not to pay us what were due (along with Bristol City, Ipswich and a few others) and that going into admin is OK, cos it saves their club, but give no thought to the countless small businesses which supply CPFC 2000 Ltd and could well go to the wall if these outstanding debts are written off or the amounts due reduced.
Having said all that I still don't want them to go out of business, but perhaps a period of playing games away from Selhurst and a struggle similar to that that we had would be a decent dose of medicine for some of these numpties.
Addickted (not sure what he post on here under ;o) makes a good point re getting off their arses and doing something for their club, like we did, rather than just moaning about it on "The Worlds Biggest Online Football Community", or whatever nerdy thing it is that BBS posters like to revel in.
[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]Looking forward to 27 Jan and their winding up petition quickly followed by the low low sale price for Moses even more now : - )
Could we send someone to that meeting who will interrupt it with a court order of our own just to gain some publicity?
[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]Looking forward to 27 Jan and their winding up petition quickly followed by the low low sale price for Moses even more now : - )
Could we send someone to that meeting who will interrupt it with a court order of our own just to gain some publicity?
I'm in Yorkshire that day but someone must have some free time.
[cite]Posted By: Chizz[/cite]
There are a couple of problems with this. First, whenever rules, procedures or guidlines, are put in place, clubs work out ways to circumvent, avoid or ignore them. Just because a rule is in place, it doesn't mean it will be followed (for example, "bungs" are illegal - but do they still happen?) The second problem is that, whereas many clubs are well-run with smart, intelligent, business-savvy professionals managing the administrative and financial affairs of the club, are the "authorities" (the Premier League, The Football League, FA, UEFA or FIFA) awash with people who can make these decisions?
In my view, if a club is well run (and Charlton, over the last fifteen years over-all have been), they deserve to do well; and if a club is badly managed (Leeds, Palace, Southampton, Newcastle, Portsmouth, etc, etc). Not for "football" manage its constituent clubs' affairs.
If you make the right financial investments (ensuring you own your ground; invest in youth player development; engender relationships with relevant local businesses; look after your relationship with your fans) you deserve to fail. If you spunk your dough on rubbish (renting expensive goldfish (Leeds); saddling yourself with unmanageable debt (several clubs); paying over the odds for sub-prime players (many clubs)) and if you fail to meet your financial obligaions (Palace) you deserve to fail.
I'm sorry Chizz, but the fact that some unscrupulous people will ignore rules and regualtions is no argument for not having any. That is what the whole of society is built on - laws are passed (in general) to try and stop people from doing things that undermines that society (theft, murder, fraud etc etc). If people still think it's okay to do those things then we have bodies of people employed to call them out and to punish them. It's not a perfect system, people still break the rules and not everyone gets caught, but it's the best we've got.
On your second point, you may be right about the expertise not being at the FA etc - in which case one of the things the FA etc should be doing to get on top of the problem is hire people who know how to do it.
Many clubs are well run, but they can still sign a deal with another club - in good faith - not knowing that the club may be in bad financial state or worse difficulties than the wider football society thinks. The revelations about West Ham's debt seem to have come as a bit of shock to everyone for example. If that well run club then doesn't get it's money are they victims of themselves or the other club? I'd say naivity is not fair reason to hang an otherwise innocent club out to dry.
If you don't want to protect the clubs from each other, is it fair on the local business man who prints the programmes, sells the pies or whatever. Is it right that a club can owe him money but still commit massive sums of money, they don't really have, on yet another player?
All clubs/businesses have a reasponsibility to look after their own interests but that doesn't mean it's okay to just leave businesses to shaft each other. It's not just business, it's society and we all have a responsibility to look out for each others interests as well as our own - or at least to try and help protect the interests of innocent parties.
[cite]Posted By: Exiled_Addick[/cite]I know these staged deals are all the rage these days - but is it really a sensible sales policy in these times? I mean, clubs are effectively giving credit to other clubs and often both parties are complete basket cases financially.
We're all robbing Peter to pay Paul at the moment and it's really about time the authorities started doing something to get it all under control.
Agree with the point, but I think that - as businesses - football should have the smarts to self-regulate. Banks aren't lending much and certainly not to shaky businesses that have operated for years in the red (well, now at least), but football continues to do it. Clubs seem to ignore the cash-flow issues that these deals present and the risks associated with them. Clubs should only let players go if any applicable fees were paid when they leave (as opposed to the ridiculous "jam tomorrow" deals that are cut, that they often never see half the cash from) and only sanction expenditure that I could afford. Crazy stuff.
[cite]Posted By: Chizz[/cite]
There are a couple of problems with this. First, whenever rules, procedures or guidlines, are put in place, clubs work out ways to circumvent, avoid or ignore them. Just because a rule is in place, it doesn't mean it will be followed (for example, "bungs" are illegal - but do they still happen?) The second problem is that, whereas many clubs are well-run with smart, intelligent, business-savvy professionals managing the administrative and financial affairs of the club, are the "authorities" (the Premier League, The Football League, FA, UEFA or FIFA) awash with people who can make these decisions?
In my view, if a club is well run (and Charlton, over the last fifteen years over-all have been), they deserve to do well; and if a club is badly managed (Leeds, Palace, Southampton, Newcastle, Portsmouth, etc, etc). Not for "football" manage its constituent clubs' affairs.
If you make the right financial investments (ensuring you own your ground; invest in youth player development; engender relationships with relevant local businesses; look after your relationship with your fans) you deserve to fail. If you spunk your dough on rubbish (renting expensive goldfish (Leeds); saddling yourself with unmanageable debt (several clubs); paying over the odds for sub-prime players (many clubs)) and if you fail to meet your financial obligaions (Palace) you deserve to fail.
I'm sorry Chizz, but the fact that some unscrupulous people will ignore rules and regualtions is no argument for not having any. That is what the whole of society is built on - laws are passed (in general) to try and stop people from doing things that undermines that society (theft, murder, fraud etc etc). If people still think it's okay to do those things then we have bodies of people employed to call them out and to punish them. It's not a perfect system, people still break the rules and not everyone gets caught, but it's the best we've got.
On your second point, you may be right about the expertise not being at the FA etc - in which case one of the things the FA etc should be doing to get on top of the problem is hire people who know how to do it.
Many clubs are well run, but they can still sign a deal with another club - in good faith - not knowing that the club may be in bad financial state or worse difficulties than the wider football society thinks. The revelations about West Ham's debt seem to have come as a bit of shock to everyone for example. If that well run club then doesn't get it's money are they victims of themselves or the other club? I'd say naivity is not fair reason to hang an otherwise innocent club out to dry.
If you don't want to protect the clubs from each other, is it fair on the local business man who prints the programmes, sells the pies or whatever. Is it right that a club can owe him money but still commit massive sums of money, they don't really have, on yet another player?
All clubs/businesses have a reasponsibility to look after their own interests but that doesn't mean it's okay to just leave businesses to shaft each other. It's not just business, it's society and we all have a responsibility to look out for each others interests as well as our own - or at least to try and help protect the interests of innocent parties.
My views are that clubs won't be better run because they have even more rules to adhere to. It's not worth bringing in more rules which will be breached, broken or ignored. And one thing the FA (or other bodies) do not need, is more expensive consultants coming up with new strategies and rules to prevent clubs from trading in the way they see fit. (In fact I would PREFER to see a club having the CHOICE of spending its fooball money on goldfish, than having to contribute to more non-football staff at the FA et al). I also believe that a well-run club will protect itself from dealing with other companies (in football or outside) that are likely to default. Ot, at least protectt themselves from that happening.
Example: Charlton sold a player to Palace - to be paid for over an agreed schedule of payments - and have not received payment. Whose fault is that? You might say it's the fault of "football" and that such a deal should not be allowed. I would say it's Charlton's fault for agreeing a deal with a high-risk "customer".
That's all I hreally have to say on the subject: to me it's not a big deal. Badly-run clubs should - and deserve to - face financial punishments (admin, etc) and well-run clubs deserve to thrive.
I remember last year Palace fans laughing when Zabeel fell through and when the mail put up there article saying we were close to admin. Can't stand them.
Henry IrvingCommentTime1 hour ago quote# 36
Posted By: Charlton Dan
Posted By: Henry Irving
Looking forward to 27 Jan and their winding up petition quickly followed by the low low sale price for Moses even more now : - )
Could we send someone to that meeting who will interrupt it with a court order of our own just to gain some publicity?
I'm in Yorkshire that day but someone must have some free time.
Does this Addickted chap have a job?
I believe Nathan is not working yet, it'll give him a days work. I pay his first hours salary £11.18 aint it? ; )
[cite]Posted By: Telnotinoz[/cite]Distinct absence of Budgie and Son of selhurst lately.....
Check my history Tel, I believe my last post was yesterday.
However, I don't really know what you expect me to say.
Earlier on this thread someone posted that the Palace fans should take things into there own hands and do more. What do you think we should do? hold demonstrations against Jordan, telling him to get out of the club. Well seeing as he has been saying to anyone who will listen for the last year - 18 months that he wants out, I don't really know what good that will do.
For the moment all we Palace fans can do, is hope that Jordan manages to find a buyer before administration becomes the only option, if that happens I will be very sorry for all the local businesses and anyone else that is affected, but realistically my main concern is that my club survives it all, hopefully in the same division, but if a drop to division 3 is what it takes, then so be it.
Tongue in cheek old chap. Football is in a deep and painful mess right now...the insane wages still being paid will be the downfall of many clubs as we know them. I dont have the answers, but I do feel we are paying for some real misguided management decisions which were made over the last three years. Palace are in a pretty precarious position.....You still have a good youth set up and one or two useful players who you can probably off load to get their wages off the books, but little else to tempt anyone to throw any serious money at.....Youre one of many, many clubs who will be further down the buying list unless one of your fans wins the Euro Millions....even then I think anyone with an ounce of sense would be daft to put money into a footbal club.....its certainly not an investment. Was encouraging seeing a Hartlepool striker turn up for training in an article earlier this season in a Ford Focus.....yet at the Valley the other night there were still too many Range Rovers and Aston Martins...it just doesnt make any sense.
[cite]Posted By: Telnotinoz[/cite]Distinct absence of Budgie and Son of selhurst lately.....
Check my history Tel, I believe my last post was yesterday.
However, I don't really know what you expect me to say.
Earlier on this thread someone posted that the Palace fans should take things into there own hands and do more. What do you think we should do? hold demonstrations against Jordan, telling him to get out of the club. Well seeing as he has been saying to anyone who will listen for the last year - 18 months that he wants out, I don't really know what good that will do.
For the moment all we Palace fans can do, is hope that Jordan manages to find a buyer before administration becomes the only option, if that happens I will be very sorry for all the local businesses and anyone else that is affected, but realistically my main concern is that my club survives it all, hopefully in the same division, but if a drop to division 3 is what it takes, then so be it.
What should you do?
Form a Fans' forum type group to raise money to possibly buy Selhurst and/or the club, try and find a few reasonably rich people who are Palace fans who would contribute and get some momentum.
At the moment doing nothing is the worst thing you can do - like watching a car crash in slow motion.
When we returned to the Valley the directors who invested their money did so not out of pure altruism, but because they knew that there was a loyal bunch of fans who would form the basis of our support and there was something to build on. Palace is smack in the middle of a large community, with train/bus connections and good parking. Ok the ground is a dump but the support is there, you just need to get it motivated and organised.
[cite]Posted By: Telnotinoz[/cite]You still have a good youth set up and one or two useful players who you can probably off load to get their wages off the books, but little else to tempt anyone to throw any serious money at.....
Why don't Palace have any money? Andy Johnson must be the only player to have been on over £15k a week there in the last... well... ever? They've never had any good players. Never had a prolonged period of premiership wages either.
Just think £100,000 get's you Ashley Cole for a week......, but not for long apparently he wants £130,000 . Personally speaking I would sign him for free, despite how wonderful a player he may be. Something very sick about football at present. I wonder if it might be the greed of players, the shortsighted immediate results demanded, and the cheque book Man city approach.......
[cite]Posted By: Telnotinoz[/cite]You still have a good youth set up and one or two useful players who you can probably off load to get their wages off the books, but little else to tempt anyone to throw any serious money at.....
For reference purposes please see CAFC in 1984
I dont think football in general was quite as sick as it is today though.....probably nowhere near 30 clubs up for sale....I fear for the smaller clubs right now.
Palace certainly need to get their act together...as was stated, they have a massive catchment area and they arent making the most of it.
[cite]Posted By: Telnotinoz[/cite]You still have a good youth set up and one or two useful players who you can probably off load to get their wages off the books, but little else to tempt anyone to throw any serious money at.....
For reference purposes please see CAFC in 1984
I dont think football in general was quite as sick as it is today though.....probably nowhere near 30 clubs up for sale....I fear for the smaller clubs right now.
Palace certainly need to get their act together...as was stated, they have a massive catchment area and they arent making the most of it.
Agreed. My reference was to their lack of assets, ground not in their own hands etc etc.
Since they have constantly tried to make fun out of us having to "bus in all our fans" despite Valley Express at most bringing in 5% of our gate they will have some problem reaching that catchment area.
Budgie - can honestly say i've not really paid too much attention to your situation, but does the imminent sale of Moses enable you to survive until the end of the season, and therefore avoiding administration, or is the situation far worse than that?
[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]Since they have constantly tried to make fun out of us having to "bus in all our fans" despite Valley Express at most bringing in 5% of our gate they will have some problem reaching that catchment area.
You mean the Palace fans are taking the piss out of our marketing?
My God! What next? Jordan coming to us to get advice on our marketing techniques and then being so grateful he refuses to shake hands with Richard Murray?
Well Jordan had already turned to Peter Varney for help to deal with the press and other Chairman following his "All the other Chairman are tossers" quote in the Times.
Two facts Mr Jordan and Palace fans overlook when it comes to Charlton and other "tosser" remarks ; - )
Maybe Simon (Telstar) Jordan will give Richard (Slumdog Millionaire) Murray some advice on the film industry.
Budgie, how much of Palace's money did SJ spend on Telstar and his failed restaurants?
Comments
Looking forward to 27 Jan and their winding up petition quickly followed by the low low sale price for Moses even more now : - )
Something tells me we're not going to get it by the end of this window, if at all.
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to AFKA again
They moaned that we "stole" players from them last time they were in admin yet their club accepted the bids, derisory or not, and they think its OK not to pay us what were due (along with Bristol City, Ipswich and a few others) and that going into admin is OK, cos it saves their club, but give no thought to the countless small businesses which supply CPFC 2000 Ltd and could well go to the wall if these outstanding debts are written off or the amounts due reduced.
Having said all that I still don't want them to go out of business, but perhaps a period of playing games away from Selhurst and a struggle similar to that that we had would be a decent dose of medicine for some of these numpties.
Addickted (not sure what he post on here under ;o) makes a good point re getting off their arses and doing something for their club, like we did, rather than just moaning about it on "The Worlds Biggest Online Football Community", or whatever nerdy thing it is that BBS posters like to revel in.
I'm in Yorkshire that day but someone must have some free time.
Does this Addickted chap have a job?
I'm sorry Chizz, but the fact that some unscrupulous people will ignore rules and regualtions is no argument for not having any. That is what the whole of society is built on - laws are passed (in general) to try and stop people from doing things that undermines that society (theft, murder, fraud etc etc). If people still think it's okay to do those things then we have bodies of people employed to call them out and to punish them. It's not a perfect system, people still break the rules and not everyone gets caught, but it's the best we've got.
On your second point, you may be right about the expertise not being at the FA etc - in which case one of the things the FA etc should be doing to get on top of the problem is hire people who know how to do it.
Many clubs are well run, but they can still sign a deal with another club - in good faith - not knowing that the club may be in bad financial state or worse difficulties than the wider football society thinks. The revelations about West Ham's debt seem to have come as a bit of shock to everyone for example. If that well run club then doesn't get it's money are they victims of themselves or the other club? I'd say naivity is not fair reason to hang an otherwise innocent club out to dry.
If you don't want to protect the clubs from each other, is it fair on the local business man who prints the programmes, sells the pies or whatever. Is it right that a club can owe him money but still commit massive sums of money, they don't really have, on yet another player?
All clubs/businesses have a reasponsibility to look after their own interests but that doesn't mean it's okay to just leave businesses to shaft each other. It's not just business, it's society and we all have a responsibility to look out for each others interests as well as our own - or at least to try and help protect the interests of innocent parties.
Example: Charlton sold a player to Palace - to be paid for over an agreed schedule of payments - and have not received payment. Whose fault is that? You might say it's the fault of "football" and that such a deal should not be allowed. I would say it's Charlton's fault for agreeing a deal with a high-risk "customer".
That's all I hreally have to say on the subject: to me it's not a big deal. Badly-run clubs should - and deserve to - face financial punishments (admin, etc) and well-run clubs deserve to thrive.
Only if he got the same treatment dished out by the Hartlepool back four
Posted By: Charlton Dan
Posted By: Henry Irving
Looking forward to 27 Jan and their winding up petition quickly followed by the low low sale price for Moses even more now : - )
Could we send someone to that meeting who will interrupt it with a court order of our own just to gain some publicity?
I'm in Yorkshire that day but someone must have some free time.
Does this Addickted chap have a job?
I believe Nathan is not working yet, it'll give him a days work. I pay his first hours salary £11.18 aint it? ; )
Anyway Jordan could soon be far more popular down the Valley than Mark Goldberg ever was
Check my history Tel, I believe my last post was yesterday.
However, I don't really know what you expect me to say.
Earlier on this thread someone posted that the Palace fans should take things into there own hands and do more. What do you think we should do? hold demonstrations against Jordan, telling him to get out of the club. Well seeing as he has been saying to anyone who will listen for the last year - 18 months that he wants out, I don't really know what good that will do.
For the moment all we Palace fans can do, is hope that Jordan manages to find a buyer before administration becomes the only option, if that happens I will be very sorry for all the local businesses and anyone else that is affected, but realistically my main concern is that my club survives it all, hopefully in the same division, but if a drop to division 3 is what it takes, then so be it.
What should you do?
Form a Fans' forum type group to raise money to possibly buy Selhurst and/or the club, try and find a few reasonably rich people who are Palace fans who would contribute and get some momentum.
At the moment doing nothing is the worst thing you can do - like watching a car crash in slow motion.
When we returned to the Valley the directors who invested their money did so not out of pure altruism, but because they knew that there was a loyal bunch of fans who would form the basis of our support and there was something to build on. Palace is smack in the middle of a large community, with train/bus connections and good parking. Ok the ground is a dump but the support is there, you just need to get it motivated and organised.
Or you can take the slow lingering death option.
That place must be run by a bunch of children.
Personally speaking I would sign him for free, despite how wonderful a player he may be.
Something very sick about football at present. I wonder if it might be the greed of players, the shortsighted immediate results demanded, and the cheque book Man city approach.......
Palace certainly need to get their act together...as was stated, they have a massive catchment area and they arent making the most of it.
Agreed. My reference was to their lack of assets, ground not in their own hands etc etc.
But seeing as this is p*lace we're talking about, you're actions should be fully commended!
My God! What next? Jordan coming to us to get advice on our marketing techniques and then being so grateful he refuses to shake hands with Richard Murray?
5% of their home gate is unlikely to cover the cost of hiring the transit is it?
Two facts Mr Jordan and Palace fans overlook when it comes to Charlton and other "tosser" remarks ; - )
Maybe Simon (Telstar) Jordan will give Richard (Slumdog Millionaire) Murray some advice on the film industry.
Budgie, how much of Palace's money did SJ spend on Telstar and his failed restaurants?