Elliot - 6 Ok. Not the best performance I've seen from him Richardson - 6 Thought he was fairly quiet. Llera - 6.5 Wanted the ball a lot and pipped Dailly Dailly - 6 Looked slugish Basey - 6 Too hot & cold, but great cross for Mooney Shelvey - 5 The boy has the skill, clearly but last night wasn't his best game. Bailey - 7 Got a good grip (eventually). Does need to boss around a bit more though. Semedo - 6.5 Thought he played well. Sam - 6.5 Gave the ball away a few times but was good the rest. Burton - 7 Needs more movement in his game. There were moments when he was statuesque Mooney - 7 Easy finish for the goal (hence the 7). Some good link-ups with midfield but fairly quiet otherwise
Wagstaff - 8.5 Purely for a 30yrd daisy-cutter! Get in Waggy!!! McKenzie - 7 Solid and made a nuisance of himself in their defence. Dickson - ??? I cannot for the life of me work Dicko out? Is he good or not?
Borat - 1 That's +1 point for entertainment, -9 points for seeing a mans arse cheeks.
[cite]Posted By: LargeAddick[/cite]sorry Len, didn't realise I had to justify my marks. Take that one header out of the game and he did NOTHING.
Now, can those who marked Llera lower than Dailly please justify themselves.
he chased around alot, looked our most dangerous. did not do alot wrong. yeah everyone's entitled to there opinion but seriously mate you obviously saw a different game!
I'd say he was our 2nd best player on the night, narrowly shaded by semedo
[cite]Posted By: LargeAddick[/cite]sorry Len, didn't realise I had to justify my marks. Take that one header out of the game and he did NOTHING.
Now, can those who marked Llera lower than Dailly please justify themselves.
On reflection "justify" was the wrong word. "Explain" would have been better. As I have already said we are all entitled to an opinion.
My understanding of rating players is to start from a base of 6 which is par for a "regulation" performance and then add or deduct for anything particularly good or bad.
Mooney scored which was "good" and I don't recall him missing any sitters or doing anything paricularly bad hence my question as to why you only gave him 3.5.
Regarding Llera v Dailly for me Llera seemed to give away a (harsh) penalty and also miskicked a few times. that said, as I mentioned in my ratings, the guy never hides and deserves respect for that. Defensively I cannot recall any real errors from Dailly although his distribution was below par and he didn't seem as commanding as usual. In my comments I gave him the benefit of the doubt because of possible lingering effects from his bout of pneumonia.
Elliot - 6.5 Richardson - 7.0 good to have him back but harsh on Omo. Llera - 6.0 - Shaky Dailly - 6.5 Basey - 6.5 great cross for goal, will Youga get straight back in? Shelvey - 6.0 not his best game, can be a bit lost on the left Bailey - 7.0 Semedo - 6.0 Sam - 6.5 Burton - 7.5 MOM, held the ball up well and great touches and layoffs Mooney - 6.0 not a fan i'm afraid - too light-weight.
Wagstaff - 7.0 Great goal, reminds me more or Johnny Robinson every game - minus the chin and whinging. McKenzie - 6.0 Had the touch of an early CAFC Jason Euell at times. Dickson - 6.0
[cite]Posted By: Brighton Addick[/cite]
Wagstaff - 7.0 Great goal, reminds me more or Johnny Robinson every game - minus the chin and whinging.
Said a while ago if he becomes a good player for us it'll be a John Robinson type winger at best. Not got the quick feet like Sam, or even a good cross, has but then he adds more energy to the team and scores goals.
This season Wagstaff is showing why both Pardew and Parky rated him, he just came in the team too early and couldn't show what he did on training on the pitch. He's got some confidence and now and it's great to see.
[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]Mooney not jumping very high[div class=Attachments id=Attachments_617751 noWrap=false][ul compact=false][div noWrap=false]Mooney goal.jpg[/div][/ul][/div]
For me Mooney just doesn't stand out in any area of his game, that doesn't make him a poor player though. A decent squad member who is a better all round player than Dickson/McLeod, if McKenzie gets match fit and is ready to start games he could challenge him. Mooney won't be a star for us, probably won't score consistently, but he has a decent work rate, is a better passer than Dickson or McLeod and links up with other players better than they do.
Elliot - 6.5 nothing to do but distribution was good Richardson - 7 Boy have we missed his overlapping with sam Llera - 5 - erm liability, cant fault the guy for effort but will always be a liability who cant kick it left Dailly - 6 - Nothing really to do, passing wasnt as good as his usual standard Basey - 7 - Great cross for the first goal and a number of delightful balls into the danger area Shelvey - 6 - One moment he's magic then the next sat on the ball too long or misplaced simple passes, but the crowd were an absolute disgrace, you simply cant jeer and then cheer a player in the same 10 or so seconds, once in the same passage of play, pathetic dickheads Bailey - 7 MOM more by default since no1 played really well, the only player who drives us on and dictates play Semedo - 6 - done a job but wasnt really in the game, other than getin fouled constantly Sam - 6.5 Typical sam performance superb one min then distinkly average the next, clearly technically the best player we have at the club and scares the shit out of defenses Burton - 6.5 ran tirelessly but had 4 mayb 5 heads on goal, he should be hitting the target more than the 0 times he did, liks up well with mooney though. Mooney - 7 - good head for the goal, should have caused a little more trouble when in good positions but cant fault his also tireless running
Wagstaff - 7 - Brought good energy and more directness into the team, great great goal aswel McKenzie - 6.5 A good option down the left wouldnt mind seeing him start a game up top if mooney/burton not fit/suspended Dickson - 4 - Needlessly lived offside, as much as i'd love to be wrong this is a level too high for him, possibly wont ever make it as a pro after this contract
[cite]Posted By: Scoham[/cite]For me Mooney just doesn't stand out in any area of his game, that doesn't make him a poor player though. A decent squad member who is a better all round player than Dickson/McLeod, if McKenzie gets match fit and is ready to start games he could challenge him. Mooney won't be a star for us, probably won't score consistently, but he has a decent work rate, is a better passer than Dickson or McLeod and links up with other players better than they do.
I'm not suggesting Mooney is another Bent D, Mendonca or Hales but he has now scored 4 in 9 +3 i think it is which by normal Charlton striking standards is relatively prolific! His intelligent movement off the ball creates space for others too which is not to be under estimated.
The encouraging thing for me at the moment is that, in league matches, we have Burton in double figures, Bailey with 9, Mooney, Shelvey, Sam and Waggy have all scored 4, Sodje S and Llera have 3 each and I may have missed somebody. In other words, at this level, almost anybody in the team can score.
Norwich have Holt Hoolahan and Martin but where else are their goals coming from? Leeds have Beckford but again where else are their goals coming from?
Sometimes we have a tendency to sell ourselves short and yes I'm as guilty as anybody.
Oh I do agree he can do a job for us, and I made the point about the spread of goals in our team in another thread (maybe didn't post it though, can't remember). Just to me he looks ok for a League One striker in most areas, very different to McLeod, Dickson and even Akpo Sodje who have some very good strengths but a lot more big weaknesses. Good to have a different types of strikers and I would like to see one come in with a physical presence. Parky tried to do that with Akpo and last season with Kandol, I think he likes that sort of option up front if possible.
[cite]Posted By: Scoham[/cite]For me Mooney just doesn't stand out in any area of his game, that doesn't make him a poor player though. A decent squad member who is a better all round player than Dickson/McLeod, if McKenzie gets match fit and is ready to start games he could challenge him. Mooney won't be a star for us, probably won't score consistently, but he has a decent work rate, is a better passer than Dickson or McLeod and links up with other players better than they do.
I'm not suggesting Mooney is another Bent D, Mendonca or Hales but he has now scored 4 in 9 +3 i think it is which by normal Charlton striking standards is relatively prolific! His intelligent movement off the ball creates space for others too which is not to be under estimated.
The encouraging thing for me at the moment is that, in league matches, we have Burton in double figures, Bailey with 9, Mooney, Shelvey, Sam and Waggy have all scored 4, Sodje S and Llera have 3 each and I may have missed somebody. In other words, at this level, almost anybody in the team can score.
Norwich have Holt Hoolahan and Martin but where else are their goals coming from? Leeds have Beckford but again where else are their goals coming from?
Sometimes we have a tendency to sell ourselves short and yes I'm as guilty as anybody.
Elliot - Not masses to do, but was ok when callled upon...unlucky with the pen 6.5
Richardson - Not back to full fitness yet, but ok 6
Llera -Like this bloke immensly.....he has spirit and gives it all 6.5
Dailly -Not his best game 5.5
Basey - Stepped up from a shaky game on Saturday 6
Shelvey -Not a great performance but unlucky to shave the post 6.5
Bailey - Not at his best either 6
Semedo - Man of the match....did what he did effectively 7
Sam -Frustrating as hell 5
Burton - Not at the races 5
Mooney -as above 6 but took his goal well
Wagstaff - What a great sub....did what Sam failed to do 6.5
McKenzie - Lot of huff and puff 6
Dickson - Poor again...if only he could channel his half time antics into the same quality during a game 4
Elliot - 6.5 - Some brilliant catches throughout the game where other keepers may have punched and flapped at it.
Richardson - 6
Llera - 5
Dailly - 5.5
Basey - 6
Shelvey - 6
Bailey - 6.5
Semedo - 6
Sam - 6.5 - Too many pointless stepovers etc. when a more direct route to goal was needed. i.e cutting the ball back earlier rather than taking another touch. Could it have been anything to do with the Newcastle, Burnley and Bolton scouts at the game?
Burton - 7
Mooney - 7.5
Wagstaff - 7 - For the winner as well as direct play which was much needed after Sam overplayed every time he received the ball.
McKenzie - 6.5
Dickson - 5.5 - Unlucky not to have a goal to his name. Personally couldn't see anything wrong with it
Elliot - 6 Average game
Richardson - 7 Good performance
Llera - 5.5 Wild clearances, conceded penalty
Dailly - 6 Seems a little off form
Basey - 6 Tried to both defend and support attacks when he could.
Shelvey - 7 Good performance, a growing authority, hit post.
Bailey - 7.5 Wanted the points, leader.
Semedo - 7.5 Similarly wanted the result.
Sam - 7 Generally a threat, switched around a bit second half.
Burton - 6 Tried, but not really his night.
Mooney - 6.5 scored, and did OK overall.
Wagstaff - 8 Great impact, great goal, did exactly what was demanded...a cameo, but the best bit about the evening.
McKenzie - 6.5 Did OK, shielded the ball quite well.
Dickson - 6 Ran around a bit.
Parkinson - 8 Good substitutions, three points.
Hartlepool - 7 Tough opposition.
Our crowd.-5, Some effort shown
Their support 8 respect.
Elliot - 5 not really lots to do
Richardson - 5'5 may still be struggling with fitness
Llera - 4 scares the life out of me when the ball goes to him. Schoolboy error for the pen
Dailly - 5 agian not a great game still might not be fit but with his experience he should be leading this team
Basey - 5.5 still far to slow but done well with the cross
Shelvey - 6 Not a great game but no wehere near as bad as made out. Done some nice stuff but got caught with the ball in the middle of the park but was always looking and never gave up. great back heel and unlucky with the shot
Bailey - 6 wasn't in the game for 70 minutes good sliding tackle seemed to wake him up. Stop the bloody rolling about like you've been shot
Semedo - 5 Didn't even know he was playing bailey was so deep we didn't need them both on the pitch hid for most of the game
Sam - 5 step over step over step over ooooh its gone
Burton -5 seems very quiet of late need him up there leading the line and talking to mooney the way he used to with jonjo, something not right
Mooney - 6.5 No he's not strong but he makes very intelligent runs he will score goals at this and the next level. Just doesn't seem to be any chemistry between him and burton no real partnership
Wagstaff - 7 he took his goal well and was direct and run at them and got the ball over (sam take note) Dont like making subs mom but wasn't a great game
McKenzie - 5.5 worked hard but just needs a better first touch the ball seems to bounce 5 yards off him when he tries to control it
Dickson -5 Unlucky with the goal but am still looking for more from him but not sure i'm going to see it
Elliot - 6 Didn’t have much to do Richardson - 6 passing was a bit wayward at times. Llera - 6 Looks solid one minute, looks clumsy the next Dailly - 6 not his best game but Solid enough Basey - 6 Better performance then the Wycombe game, but still want Youga to take his place when fit Shelvey - 6 not his best performance, tried hard. but there is only so much one can do when playing out of position, no fault of his own Bailey - 6 Decent enough went missing too much though, may be because he kept switching with Shelvey, again no fault of his own Semedo - 7 Solid, I think player of the season so far, I’m sure some will disagree though :) Sam - 6 inconsistent, shame he isn't more direct like Wagstaff, but overall is the better player of the 2 at the minute. Burton - 6 first touch was poor yesterday, done well in the air though. Mooney -6 Good goal, link up play wasn't great with Burton and needs to be a bit stronger. Wagstaff -7 Great goal looks a danger when running at players, shame he hasn’t the skill Sam has got otherwise he would be starting every game. McKenzie - 7 ran the tired Hartlerpool defenders into the ground when coming on. personally I would like to see him start with Burton Dickson - 4 Headless chicken
Comments
Elliot - 6.5
Richardson - 6
Llera - 6
Dailly - 6
Basey - 6
Shelvey - 6
Bailey - 6.5
Semedo -7
Sam -6.5
Burton -6.5
Mooney -6.5
Wagstaff -6.5
McKenzie -6.5
Dickson - 5.5
Richardson - 7
Llera - 6
Dailly - 6.5
Basey - 6
Shelvey - 7
Bailey - 7.5
Semedo - 7
Sam - 7.5
Burton - 7
Mooney - 7
Wagstaff - 7
McKenzie - 6.5
Dickson - 5
Take that one header out and we draw 1 - 1.
Richardson - 6 Thought he was fairly quiet.
Llera - 6.5 Wanted the ball a lot and pipped Dailly
Dailly - 6 Looked slugish
Basey - 6 Too hot & cold, but great cross for Mooney
Shelvey - 5 The boy has the skill, clearly but last night wasn't his best game.
Bailey - 7 Got a good grip (eventually). Does need to boss around a bit more though.
Semedo - 6.5 Thought he played well.
Sam - 6.5 Gave the ball away a few times but was good the rest.
Burton - 7 Needs more movement in his game. There were moments when he was statuesque
Mooney - 7 Easy finish for the goal (hence the 7). Some good link-ups with midfield but fairly quiet otherwise
Wagstaff - 8.5 Purely for a 30yrd daisy-cutter! Get in Waggy!!!
McKenzie - 7 Solid and made a nuisance of himself in their defence.
Dickson - ??? I cannot for the life of me work Dicko out? Is he good or not?
Borat - 1 That's +1 point for entertainment, -9 points for seeing a mans arse cheeks.
he chased around alot, looked our most dangerous. did not do alot wrong. yeah everyone's entitled to there opinion but seriously mate you obviously saw a different game!
I'd say he was our 2nd best player on the night, narrowly shaded by semedo
On reflection "justify" was the wrong word. "Explain" would have been better. As I have already said we are all entitled to an opinion.
My understanding of rating players is to start from a base of 6 which is par for a "regulation" performance and then add or deduct for anything particularly good or bad.
Mooney scored which was "good" and I don't recall him missing any sitters or doing anything paricularly bad hence my question as to why you only gave him 3.5.
Regarding Llera v Dailly for me Llera seemed to give away a (harsh) penalty and also miskicked a few times. that said, as I mentioned in my ratings, the guy never hides and deserves respect for that. Defensively I cannot recall any real errors from Dailly although his distribution was below par and he didn't seem as commanding as usual. In my comments I gave him the benefit of the doubt because of possible lingering effects from his bout of pneumonia.
Richardson - 7.0 good to have him back but harsh on Omo.
Llera - 6.0 - Shaky
Dailly - 6.5
Basey - 6.5 great cross for goal, will Youga get straight back in?
Shelvey - 6.0 not his best game, can be a bit lost on the left
Bailey - 7.0
Semedo - 6.0
Sam - 6.5
Burton - 7.5 MOM, held the ball up well and great touches and layoffs
Mooney - 6.0 not a fan i'm afraid - too light-weight.
Wagstaff - 7.0 Great goal, reminds me more or Johnny Robinson every game - minus the chin and whinging.
McKenzie - 6.0 Had the touch of an early CAFC Jason Euell at times.
Dickson - 6.0
This season Wagstaff is showing why both Pardew and Parky rated him, he just came in the team too early and couldn't show what he did on training on the pitch. He's got some confidence and now and it's great to see.
haha love it henners!
Richardson - 7 Boy have we missed his overlapping with sam
Llera - 5 - erm liability, cant fault the guy for effort but will always be a liability who cant kick it left
Dailly - 6 - Nothing really to do, passing wasnt as good as his usual standard
Basey - 7 - Great cross for the first goal and a number of delightful balls into the danger area
Shelvey - 6 - One moment he's magic then the next sat on the ball too long or misplaced simple passes, but the crowd were an absolute disgrace, you simply cant jeer and then cheer a player in the same 10 or so seconds, once in the same passage of play, pathetic dickheads
Bailey - 7 MOM more by default since no1 played really well, the only player who drives us on and dictates play
Semedo - 6 - done a job but wasnt really in the game, other than getin fouled constantly
Sam - 6.5 Typical sam performance superb one min then distinkly average the next, clearly technically the best player we have at the club and scares the shit out of defenses
Burton - 6.5 ran tirelessly but had 4 mayb 5 heads on goal, he should be hitting the target more than the 0 times he did, liks up well with mooney though.
Mooney - 7 - good head for the goal, should have caused a little more trouble when in good positions but cant fault his also tireless running
Wagstaff - 7 - Brought good energy and more directness into the team, great great goal aswel
McKenzie - 6.5 A good option down the left wouldnt mind seeing him start a game up top if mooney/burton not fit/suspended
Dickson - 4 - Needlessly lived offside, as much as i'd love to be wrong this is a level too high for him, possibly wont ever make it as a pro after this contract
I'm not suggesting Mooney is another Bent D, Mendonca or Hales but he has now scored 4 in 9 +3 i think it is which by normal Charlton striking standards is relatively prolific! His intelligent movement off the ball creates space for others too which is not to be under estimated.
The encouraging thing for me at the moment is that, in league matches, we have Burton in double figures, Bailey with 9, Mooney, Shelvey, Sam and Waggy have all scored 4, Sodje S and Llera have 3 each and I may have missed somebody. In other words, at this level, almost anybody in the team can score.
Norwich have Holt Hoolahan and Martin but where else are their goals coming from? Leeds have Beckford but again where else are their goals coming from?
Sometimes we have a tendency to sell ourselves short and yes I'm as guilty as anybody.
Spot on Len
Elliot - Not masses to do, but was ok when callled upon...unlucky with the pen 6.5
Richardson - Not back to full fitness yet, but ok 6
Llera -Like this bloke immensly.....he has spirit and gives it all 6.5
Dailly -Not his best game 5.5
Basey - Stepped up from a shaky game on Saturday 6
Shelvey -Not a great performance but unlucky to shave the post 6.5
Bailey - Not at his best either 6
Semedo - Man of the match....did what he did effectively 7
Sam -Frustrating as hell 5
Burton - Not at the races 5
Mooney -as above 6 but took his goal well
Wagstaff - What a great sub....did what Sam failed to do 6.5
McKenzie - Lot of huff and puff 6
Dickson - Poor again...if only he could channel his half time antics into the same quality during a game 4
I make you right, Salad. Think he only has 3.
However I think the pointsI make still stand.
Richardson - 6
Llera - 5.5
Dailly -5.5
Basey - 5.5
Shelvey - 5
Bailey - 6
Semedo - 7.5
Sam - 6
Burton - 6.5
Mooney -6
Wagstaff - 7
McKenzie - 4.5
Dickson -4
Agree with what you said, Len. He got injured against Millwall, and we didn't win until he returned against Wycombe.
lol bit harsh but not one to dig ;oD
Richardson - 6
Llera - 5
Dailly - 5.5
Basey - 6
Shelvey - 6
Bailey - 6.5
Semedo - 6
Sam - 6.5 - Too many pointless stepovers etc. when a more direct route to goal was needed. i.e cutting the ball back earlier rather than taking another touch. Could it have been anything to do with the Newcastle, Burnley and Bolton scouts at the game?
Burton - 7
Mooney - 7.5
Wagstaff - 7 - For the winner as well as direct play which was much needed after Sam overplayed every time he received the ball.
McKenzie - 6.5
Dickson - 5.5 - Unlucky not to have a goal to his name. Personally couldn't see anything wrong with it
Richardson - 7 Good performance
Llera - 5.5 Wild clearances, conceded penalty
Dailly - 6 Seems a little off form
Basey - 6 Tried to both defend and support attacks when he could.
Shelvey - 7 Good performance, a growing authority, hit post.
Bailey - 7.5 Wanted the points, leader.
Semedo - 7.5 Similarly wanted the result.
Sam - 7 Generally a threat, switched around a bit second half.
Burton - 6 Tried, but not really his night.
Mooney - 6.5 scored, and did OK overall.
Wagstaff - 8 Great impact, great goal, did exactly what was demanded...a cameo, but the best bit about the evening.
McKenzie - 6.5 Did OK, shielded the ball quite well.
Dickson - 6 Ran around a bit.
Parkinson - 8 Good substitutions, three points.
Hartlepool - 7 Tough opposition.
Our crowd.-5, Some effort shown
Their support 8 respect.
Richardson - 6
Llera - 5.5
Dailly - 5.5
Basey - 6.5
Shelvey - 6
Bailey - 7
Semedo - 5.5
Sam - 5
Burton -5
Mooney - 6
Wagstaff - 7
McKenzie - 6
Dickson -5.5
Richardson - 5
Llera -5
Dailly -5
Basey - 5
Shelvey -5
Bailey - 5
Semedo - 5
Sam -5
Burton - 5
Mooney -6
Wagstaff -7
McKenzie -5
Dickson - 5
Master Cherry -10
Richardson - 6.5
Llera -6
Dailly -6
Basey - 7.5
Shelvey -6.5
Bailey - 7
Semedo - 7
Sam -5.5
Burton - 6.5
Mooney -6.5
Wagstaff - 7
McKenzie - 6.5
Dickson -6
Richardson - 5'5 may still be struggling with fitness
Llera - 4 scares the life out of me when the ball goes to him. Schoolboy error for the pen
Dailly - 5 agian not a great game still might not be fit but with his experience he should be leading this team
Basey - 5.5 still far to slow but done well with the cross
Shelvey - 6 Not a great game but no wehere near as bad as made out. Done some nice stuff but got caught with the ball in the middle of the park but was always looking and never gave up. great back heel and unlucky with the shot
Bailey - 6 wasn't in the game for 70 minutes good sliding tackle seemed to wake him up. Stop the bloody rolling about like you've been shot
Semedo - 5 Didn't even know he was playing bailey was so deep we didn't need them both on the pitch hid for most of the game
Sam - 5 step over step over step over ooooh its gone
Burton -5 seems very quiet of late need him up there leading the line and talking to mooney the way he used to with jonjo, something not right
Mooney - 6.5 No he's not strong but he makes very intelligent runs he will score goals at this and the next level. Just doesn't seem to be any chemistry between him and burton no real partnership
Wagstaff - 7 he took his goal well and was direct and run at them and got the ball over (sam take note) Dont like making subs mom but wasn't a great game
McKenzie - 5.5 worked hard but just needs a better first touch the ball seems to bounce 5 yards off him when he tries to control it
Dickson -5 Unlucky with the goal but am still looking for more from him but not sure i'm going to see it
Richardson - 6 passing was a bit wayward at times.
Llera - 6 Looks solid one minute, looks clumsy the next
Dailly - 6 not his best game but Solid enough
Basey - 6 Better performance then the Wycombe game, but still want Youga to take his place when fit
Shelvey - 6 not his best performance, tried hard. but there is only so much one can do when playing out of position, no fault of his own
Bailey - 6 Decent enough went missing too much though, may be because he kept switching with Shelvey, again no fault of his own
Semedo - 7 Solid, I think player of the season so far, I’m sure some will disagree though :)
Sam - 6 inconsistent, shame he isn't more direct like Wagstaff, but overall is the better player of the 2 at the minute.
Burton - 6 first touch was poor yesterday, done well in the air though.
Mooney -6 Good goal, link up play wasn't great with Burton and needs to be a bit stronger.
Wagstaff -7 Great goal looks a danger when running at players, shame he hasn’t the skill Sam has got otherwise he would be starting every game.
McKenzie - 7 ran the tired Hartlerpool defenders into the ground when coming on. personally I would like to see him start with Burton
Dickson - 4 Headless chicken
Richardson - 6
Llera - 6
Dailly - 6
Basey - 6.5
Shelvey - 6
Bailey - 6.5
Semedo - 6.5
Sam - 6
Burton - 6.5
Mooney -6.5
Wagstaff -8
McKenzie - 6.5
Dickson - 5.5