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The Point Of 4-5-1

edited November 2009 in General Charlton
Now am I wrong in thinking that the reason we play this formation is not necessarily that it suits our play better, but because we are blessed with 5 talented midfielders in Sam, Semedo, Racon, Bailey and Shelvey so we make changes to accommodate everyone, because that's the way I see it. If this is the case then why did we stick to the same formation last night when we played the ever so untalented Mr. Muscle(Matt Spring for the sheer lack of any on his whole body) and Jug Ears Wagstaff (who is actually a bit talented but has funny ears). I mean this is beyond the whole point that our 4-5-1 doesn't work anymore but could anyone really see us reaching the levels we did earlier in the season with this system without Racon and Bailey?
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Comments

  • We have, on paper, talented midfielders but they are all pretty lightweight so we perhaps need to play 4-5-1 to avoid being overrrun as well as theoretically give a platform for their creative abilities.
  • I also dont seem the point in playing 451 with mooney up front on his own, maybe if shelvey was playing behind him but does not look like a lone striker
    Not mooney's fault just i think parkinson did not really use him in the right position.

    Also agree why play 451 last night should of played mckenzie up front with mooney, which i think would work quite well
  • Unfortunately the only game you can win on paper is noughts and crosses.
  • edited November 2009
    we play 451 to accomodate Jonjo (at least that was my view at the start of the season)

    Also agree why play 451 last night should of played mckenzie up front with mooney, which i think would work quite well

    they would be my pairing for saturday....dunno why we just don't get Burton's hernia sorted sooner rather than later, he's clearly 'carrying' it.
  • That was his excuse last season for playing 451. This season however, given that Parky has created a situation whereby he doesn't have two fully fit forwards available, I think he has left himself no option but to play a 451.
  • [cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]Unfortunately the only game you can win on paper is noughts and crosses.

    Battleships !
  • [cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]Unfortunately the only game you can win on paper is noughts and crosses.

    Battleships !

    Hangman
  • I don't see why we should be overrun in midfield if we were to play 442. Semedo is certainly no lightweight and I wouldn't say that Bailey is either. I think it's more a case of getting them to play better football. That means retaining the ball better, being more accurate with their passes, more tenacious in the tackle and so on. They are all very good players and they should be playing far better than they have been of late. It looks to me like they are no longer enjoying their football and I wonder whether it's because they too are getting frustrated with their managers tactics.
  • [cite]Posted By: Elthamaddick[/cite]


    ....dunno why we just don't get Burton's hernia sorted sooner rather than later, he's clearly 'carrying' it.

    Agreed ....... for 5 weeks now, we've had a half fit, half paced player who has clearly lost his effectiveness.
    It's not that we're still winning with his involvement in the team.

    If Parky had straightaway got the player off to hospital, got his hernia fixed - Burton would be soon ready to come back.
    It would be like signing a new player.
  • The fundamental idea of playing 4-5-1 is firstly to contain the midfield area and not get overun, secondly to find space for each other and always provide an outlet, and thirdly to link play with the lone striker to quicky convert to 4-3-3.
    In our case the 5 always seem to be closer to the 4 leaving a vacant area the size of Millwall's trophy cabinet upto the 1 lone striker. The 5 then in turn seem to get under one an others feet hence not providing that outlet ball/width etc...thus creating panic and confusion onto the back 4.Meanwhile the lonesome 1 is upfront contemplating his navel being guarded by two 6'2'' center halves while he waits for the long high ball to be pumped up front in the hope that he brings the ball down,turn's, sprints away from the two center halves,avoids the lunging challenges of both retreating full backs and then cooly chips the advancing goalkeeper.

    Got to sign off now as here comes Matron with my tablets.
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  • Reckon it was done at the start of the season because Parkinson....

    Didn't have faith in midfield 4 to stop attacks.
    Could get the best out of Semedo in 5 man midfield.
    Didn't fancy Shelvey in midfield 4 but wanted to play him.
    Wanted to give full-backs a bit more freedom to get forward.
    Perhaps he didn't think he had a decent enough pair of strikers?
    Thought that many 3rd Div teams wouldn't be able to cope as they were used to 4-4-2.
    Thought overall it best suited the players at his disposal.

    You'd have to say, that for a while it worked very well and it still might in the future. Think the bottom line is that injuries disrupted the team, results affected confidence, confidence affected performance. Now the challenge is to rebuild the whole thing again and get over injuries to key players like Elliott, Burton and Richardson. Not easy but it can be done.
  • I think last night we played proper 4-5-1 or 4-3-3 rather than the usual 4-4-1-1, whether by design or because Shelvey went looking for the ball and was out of position. JonJo had another poor game, talented footballer that he is, he's trying to play killer balls all the time rather than keep it simple.

    All the back four had decent games, but played too deep, inviting Saints to attack us. Spring was anonymous and hiding, making it hard for Semedo to play his simple out-ball, wingers and forwards OK. 4-42 next match please and FFS defence push up.
  • edited November 2009
    The key with any tactical formation is to have players who are clear on their individual role. There is a serious danger with 4-5-1 that your three central midfielders all end up doing the same job. In that situation you have three players effectively doing the work of one or two ... and that's not good.

    We have generally played 4-5-1 with Semedo, Racon and Shelvey in the central midfield positions and it's clear for those three that Semedo is the holding/defensive midfielder. That should leave Racon as the 'governor', receiving the ball, pinging balls around ... especially out to the wide players ... occasionally running at the defence and sometimes getting shots in. Shelvey, in turn, should be supporting the front man, frequently running at the defence, getting lots of shots in, slipping through balls into the box etc.

    Even when we were getting results at the start of the season, could we honestly say that roles as I have described were being fulfilled ... either by those named, or whoever played in these positions?

    I'm not sure that Parkinson or the coaching team go to this level of instruction ... hence, our players are unclear ... and they seem to have great trouble working it out on the pitch.

    For me, this is where we should be addressing things.
  • Addickson's God....correct;

    It was definitely 5 in midfield last night rather than the usual 4.5. Semedo looked very ponderous to me and didn't move the ball quickly at all. He looks nervous. A game at right back on Sat (if Richardson is unfit) may help get him back into things. The Saints full backs often drove our two wingers backwards (how many times...and I include Holden....did you see them coming back with the ball rather than facing and taking on the FB's?) Mooney was totally isolated and received no help from Wagstaff, Sam or midfield.

    Physically Saints seemed bigger and stronger than us. Technically (being able to control the ball) they seemed to have the better players. Burton did improve this when he came on.

    The defending for the 1st goal was awful. Someone has to head that away but we let matey have a half-volley on the six yard line.

    Think it will be 4-4-2 on Sat but with only one winger. On last night's evidence, I wish to revise my earlier call for Wagstaff to play instead of Sam!
  • [cite]Posted By: queensland_addick[/cite]I don't see why we should be overrun in midfield if we were to play 442.

    one word... carlisle
  • [quote][cite]Posted By: ISawLeaburnScore[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: queensland_addick[/cite]I don't see why we should be overrun in midfield if we were to play 442.[/quote]

    one word... carlisle[/quote]

    Agreed. But why should that be? Those players as individuals are not physically weak or lightweight. No more so than most other midfields in the division. There has to be more to it. It has to be down to other factors such as, lack of effort, poor motivation or tactics.
    I would still say that individually we have the best midfield in the division in terms of skill and ability.
  • [cite]Posted By: Simonsen[/cite]On last night's evidence, I wish to revise my earlier call for Wagstaff to play instead of Sam!
    Didn't think Wagstaff had a good game myself, still not convinced he's good enough for League One as anything more than a sub. Sam was playing the left which didn't help, really don't think he was that bad, no worse than Wagstaff any way.
  • edited November 2009
    This problem of being too weak in midfield when playing 442 goes back a long time and I think has been fundamental in our decline.
    I cannot remember a Charlton team playing consistently well with 442 since Scott Parker left.
    Curbs papered over the cracks for a while, but most of his success post Parker was by playing the 451 formation. I recall most fans agreeing that Danny Murphy couldn't play in a 442 and the only way to accommodate him was in a 451. However Murphy doesn't seem to have this problem at Fulham and plays very well in a 442.
    I recall Bailey's debut against Reading, when we had a midfield of Sam, Bailey, Holland and Bouazza. On paper that's no stronger than our current midfield and yet we scored four goals and played very well. But Bailey on that day was tenacious in the tackle and the team as a whole worked for each other in covering and putting in the effort. So I think in order to be successful playing 442 you have to have a player like a Parker or Bailey, putting in 110% effort, and the whole team playing well around them.
  • edited November 2009
    Curbs did pretty well with a 4-4-2 for ever, in fact I think our problems started to develop when he switched to a 4-5-1*. It was almost a sign, that we had lost the the self belief that our midfield was good enough to compete man for man. I am not a big fan of 4-5-1 - at this level, it should be the opposition worried about stifling us, not the other way round.

    I don't think i have ever seen anyone as isolated as Mooney was last night.

    *Midway through 2004/2005 - and our form under Curbs after that was patchy at best.
  • [quote][cite]Posted By: Oakster[/cite]Curbs did pretty well with a 4-4-2 for ever, in fact I think our problems started to develop when he switched to a 4-5-1. It was almost a sign, that we had lost the the self belief that our midfield was good enough to compete man for man. I am not a big fan of 4-5-1 - at this level, it should be the opposition worried about stifling us, not the other way round.

    I don't think i have ever seen anyone as isolated as Mooney was last night.[/quote]

    That was my point. After Parker left he started the 451 experiment and we have never really played consistently well since.
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  • [cite]Posted By: queensland_addick[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: Oakster[/cite]Curbs did pretty well with a 4-4-2 for ever, in fact I think our problems started to develop when he switched to a 4-5-1. It was almost a sign, that we had lost the the self belief that our midfield was good enough to compete man for man. I am not a big fan of 4-5-1 - at this level, it should be the opposition worried about stifling us, not the other way round.

    I don't think i have ever seen anyone as isolated as Mooney was last night.

    That was my point. After Parker left he started the 451 experiment and we have never really played consistently well since.


    The problem ultimately boils down to the fact that other than Darren Bent, we have not had a decent, consistent striker in the last 6 seasons. in fact you could argue for the whole decade, or at least since the demise of Mendonca.
  • [cite]Posted By: Elthamaddick[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]Unfortunately the only game you can win on paper is noughts and crosses.

    Battleships !

    Hangman

    Charlton Manager.

    PI_S PO_R PA_K_NS_N ????
  • [cite]Posted By: carly burn[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: Elthamaddick[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]Unfortunately the only game you can win on paper is noughts and crosses.

    Battleships !

    Hangman

    Charlton Manager.

    PI_S PO_R PA_K_NS_N ????


    PILS POUR PARKINSON??
  • edited November 2009
    The problem is the way we move up and down the field. The 4-5-1 or 4-4-2 need to move up and back together, so that a tackle or a pass has another CAFC player nearby. What has happened for years, is our defence drops deep, the midfield becomes scattered with huge gaps and the forwards isolated. Going forward its harder to pick a pass 20-30 yards than 10, and going backwards they can easily avoid our attentions because they have so many options. You hear other managers talk of "shape", not ours - do they understand the concept?
  • Scoham...sorry bit ambiguous...originally wanted Sam to be dropped for Wagstaff....but not now. Thought Wagstaff looked pretty weak last night. Perhaps he needs another loan out somewhere....like Northwich Victoria.
  • edited November 2009
    [cite]Posted By: forzajuve_27[/cite]Now am I wrong in thinking that the reason we play this formation is not necessarily that it suits our play better, but because we are blessed with 5 talented midfielders in Sam, Semedo, Racon, Bailey and Shelvey so we make changes to accommodate everyone, because that's the way I see it. If this is the case then why did we stick to the same formation last night when we played the ever so untalented Mr. Muscle(Matt Spring for the sheer lack of any on his whole body) and Jug Ears Wagstaff (who is actually a bit talented but has funny ears). I mean this is beyond the whole point that our 4-5-1 doesn't work anymore but could anyone really see us reaching the levels we did earlier in the season with this system without Racon and Bailey?
    and this from a man who loves the clown ? strange very strange
  • [cite]Posted By: Simonsen[/cite]Scoham...sorry bit ambiguous...originally wanted Sam to be dropped for Wagstaff....but not now. Thought Wagstaff looked pretty weak last night. Perhaps he needs another loan out somewhere....like Northwich Victoria.
    Yeah looking back I misread it. I do think he'd be loaned out if we had more options. He's getting a bit of experience but could surely do with regular starts even if it's a couple of divisions lower.
  • edited November 2009
    [quote][cite]Posted By: northstandsteve[/cite][quote][cite] and this from a man who loves the clown ? strange very strange[/quote]
    What's that got to do with anything?
  • Too add to the debate..... I think we have to play 451 because of a lack of a strong fit striker, Burton needs to have the op, or a long rest.......bit unfair to ask him to play bits of games.
    Although logically the five man midfield seems the way forward, partly to accomadate Shelvey, he seems to play to deep IMO. and the last two games has simply been ineffective and wasteful by his standards......

    As others have posted the midfield seemed to lack, a cohesion, as a unit, who stays back who goes forward, who plays behind etc..... Sam should be more effective, and less wasteful, still not convinced that he can play two consecutive games at a decent level, time will tell if the promise he showed at the start of the season is to be fulfilled. Always feel happier with Bailey in the team, as he seems to drive the team on
  • Should we go back to this system next year? The failure of 4-5-1 last year IMHO was that the two wide players were no threat to defences, by turning them around and pulling them out of position. OK Nicky Bailey got 13 goals but many of these were by arriving late, and Sam didn’t have enough confidence to have a crack with his left so came inside and ran down cul-de-sacs. One up front takes a couple of quick forwards out wide (Parky never tried McLeod, Dickson or even Mooney) and he only briefly swopped Reid and Sam to come in on their better foot. With changes in personnel inevitable we have the opportunity to try 4-5-1 again with the correct set-up. Having at least one of the wide men being a forward allows a change to 4-4-2 without the need for subs. The other requirement is for a central midfielder who can move defenders around and if we keep Racon, he is the man.

    Last years game plan was play two wingers, but one forward was small and the other poor in the air (Mooney) and Forster coming off the bench was no bigger than Burton. Little wonder that the wide men didn’t rain in crosses. If we go 4-4-2 it needs a big target man and a quick guy on the last shoulder. So far we have Akpo who is neither, although I do like him as long as we don’t lump it forward.
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