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Parky - My three growing concerns

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  • edited November 2009
    [cite]Posted By: Jason1[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: Salad[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: Jason1[/cite]we have played a considerable amount of games when we have been leading, 1-0 or 2-0 only to have drawn those games.
    depends whether you think two games constitute a considerable amount of games? (Norwich and Gillingham away)

    http://stats.football365.com/dom/ENG/D2/ptslost.html

    How many last season?


    Too many!
    Off the top of my head we threw away leads against Blackpool, Cardiff, Watford, Burnley away, Bristol city away and that sickener in the last minute at home to Derby. I'm sure there's more.
  • Been thinking similar things myself recently.

    Last night especially, it was clear Mooney needed support, the midfield needed another outlet. One less midfielder and one more striker actually helped us keep possession better. His changes then surprised me, too many players weren't in their best positions so just weren't comfortable.

    Jonjo I've been thinking the same the last week or two. Did have the opinion it was the best position for him, but he wants to get on the ball, be more involved and start up moves. Playing in central midfield will allow him to do that. Racon prefers to run with the ball and pass short, Semedo is there to win the ball and keep his passing simple. Jonjo though will look create things with his passing, the only midfielder who really plays in that way. Could be just what we need.

    Third point the teams confidence has gone, on Sunday the whole midfield were very complacent. I think he should be able to turn that around, but players need to be dropped if they do it again. Racon in particular isn't pushing himself any more, not playing like he can, seems to have got very comfortable having an almost guaranteed place in the team. Better player than Spring yes, but he's not that good. No player at the club is a level above everyone else and they all should be fighting for their places. Hopefully Holden is closer to the squad now, McKenzie stays fit and Mooney gets more chances. That'll mean there's a lot more competition for places, we can play with two strikers more often and we have options on the left.

    I'd like to see any two from McKenzie, Mooney and Burton together and Holden & Wagstaff both on the bench in place of a defender. Much more we can do to change the game if we had those options, rather than the predictable Wagstaff for Sam and McLeod for Shelvey.
  • good points as usual Sco, and agree with the last para
  • [cite]Posted By: Scoham[/cite]Been thinking similar things myself recently.

    Last night especially, it was clear Mooney needed support, the midfield needed another outlet. One less midfielder and one more striker actually helped us keep possession better. His changes then surprised me, too many players weren't in their best positions so just weren't comfortable.

    Jonjo I've been thinking the same the last week or two. Did have the opinion it was the best position for him, but he wants to get on the ball, be more involved and start up moves. Playing in central midfield will allow him to do that. Racon prefers to run with the ball and pass short, Semedo is there to win the ball and keep his passing simple. Jonjo though will look create things with his passing, the only midfielder who really plays in that way. Could be just what we need.

    Third point the teams confidence has gone, on Sunday the whole midfield were very complacent. I think he should be able to turn that around, but players need to be dropped if they do it again. Racon in particular isn't pushing himself any more, not playing like he can, seems to have got very comfortable having an almost guaranteed place in the team. Better player than Spring yes, but he's notthatgood. No player at the club is a level above everyone else and they all should be fighting for their places. Hopefully Holden is closer to the squad now, McKenzie stays fit and Mooney gets more chances. That'll mean there's a lot more competition for places, we can play with two strikers more often and we have options on the left.

    I'd like to see any two from McKenzie, Mooney and Burton together and Holden & Wagstaff both on the bench in place of a defender. Much more we can do to change the game if we had those options, rather than the predictable Wagstaff for Sam and McLeod for Shelvey.

    agreed 100%
  • Jonjo is top assist, but again we're back to not scoring early. Whereas before goals were coming early from set pieces by Jonjo resulting in more open play as the match went on now we're getting placed under much tighter pressure as the match goes on.

    I don't think it's a sole Jonjo issue. Jonjo does not have the game intelligence of when to drop in and what shape to take regards to the flow of the match. This is fine for a player of 17 but makes it difficult in a tight four. What is more worrying is that no one else in the midfield has game intelligence whatsoever. This has been going on since Danny Murphy left, but one would wish someone is imparting the knowledge to JJ unfortunately I doubt it. The fact no one knows when to press games, very rarely does a midfielder know when to step back or stop if their in space is something that is all too apparent. Our shape is rigid and pretty much ten to fifteen yards too deep way too often. Without pure pace, and someone with the guts to use it this squad is stuck with similar problems as all our recent teams.

    One thing that changes it is Mckenzie's ability to run angles with the ball in around the box. At the moment this is the only thing I can see that may change our pattern of play; discounting Holden as haven't seen him. Maybe putting two players up top who can make ball stick will coax our midfield up the pitch. Personally I think it's worth a try starting with Burton and Mckenzie, even if it's Mckenzie on the wing away from home coming inside as the game matures.
  • [cite]Posted By: ColinTat[/cite]Jonjo is top assist, but again we're back to not scoring early. Whereas before goals were coming early from set pieces by Jonjo resulting in more open play as the match went on now we're getting placed under much tighter pressure as the match goes on.
    Haven't been impressed by his set pieces recently, or the few that Basey also took last night. Considering they're our only real set piece takers, apart from a Bailey free kick, it's a problem.
    [cite]Posted By: ColinTat[/cite]Maybe putting two players up top who can make ball stick will coax our midfield up the pitch. Personally I think it's worth a try starting with Burton and Mckenzie, even if it's Mckenzie on the wing away from home coming inside as the game matures.
    That's a good point, would allow us to change the shape depending on how the game is going. Never liked the idea of McLeod dropping back onto the wing, but McKenzie has played there quite a bit in his career, at least for Coventry I think.
  • [cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]1. my three growing concerns

    my dick

    my gut

    my nasal hair

    dont worry afka it's called getting old
  • [cite]Posted By: northstandsteve[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]1. my three growing concerns

    my dick

    my gut

    my nasal hair

    dont worry afka it's called getting old
    Well at least the first one's growing rather than shrinking :-)
  • edited November 2009
    The happy clappers have turned!!!

    At least the moonies cant turn it onto the negative fans at the Valley eh

    Imagine if we played the Spanners this Saturday, they would rip us apart.

    Too many of our young players swanning around in Black Range Rovers like theyve made it, yet they are barely good enough for Division 3.

    A fair few need a huge kick up the arris.

    On the plus side, Holdens cross at Southampton was quality so you never know.

    Why wasnt Jonjo wasnt rested v Soton ffs. He needs a spell away for a few weeks imho. Then get him back in midfield in the mix and stop trying to ruin him. V bad management in my book.
  • Not getting negative AFKA are we? Heaven forbid.
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  • I agree with much of the detail of your analysis AFKA. Overall for me it is all about "c" words. Confidence (or lack or it) and the managers competance (or lack of it).

    I think that confidence recently has evaporated. I think that was what was missing last season. I think that Parky worked to try and created a "non losing" mentality towards the end of last season by playing 4-5-1 which gave the team more resilliance. At the start of this season, we got off to a nervy start against Wycombe and then the teams confidence built. All through though we have looked vulnerable to physical sides and he has set us up to play tight and compact to try and combat that. I just don't think with the players we have, we can mix it on a like for like basis with the physical sides. We need to out pace them and out skill them. We need opposition defences to drop deep because they fear we will out pace them both down the centre and the flanks.

    To me Parky's lack of tactical nous one teams "sussed us out" and a lack of a plan B with pace, has undermined all the good work at the start. My fear is he just isn't able to see this. I hope I'm wrong.
  • Agree with a lot of what you said, Bing, but not on pace. Not unless I'm watching a different Neon Deon.

    I honestly believe that we've scored points because our team (which is partly Parky's) is just so much better than the opposition. If you keep dropping leagues, there's a point at which tactical ineptitude is overcome by just having much better players. I do think a lot is made of the fact he had no money and lost some players. Sorry, but in being able to attract the likes of Dailly and Richardson and keep the midfielders there's been a massive investment. Just because that's not hard currency transfer fees it doesn't mean it's not the kind of money most League One managers would have a wet dream about.
  • [cite]Posted By: Mortimerician[/cite]but not on pace. Not unless I'm watching a different Neon Deon.

    Not Deon, I'm not that stupid! :-)

    No I feel that with Deon injured, McKenzie not fully fit and Mooney - not a prayer, he should recall Dickson and play him and Mcleod up front together. I know the current opinion of Mcleod and Dickson is somewhat raw, but I think both have pace/energy. To my way of thinking is in recent games the creation of chances has dried up. With a lone striker you need your midfielders to support high up the pitch and get into goal scoring positions - we just haven't done that. So play 4-4-2 and get us playing with pace both down the flanks and the centre. We need to stretch teams, ensure that they fear us running in behind them and therefor defend a deeper line, creating space and opening up play. At the moment decently organised team just defend very high up the pitch denying us space.

    My team would be

    Gandolph the Green
    Youga Sodje, Dailey, Basey
    Sam, Semedo, Bailey. Racon
    McLeod Dickson
  • Are we again being guilty of over-reacting here, in the light of a couple of very poor performances, and making a bit of a mountain out of a mole-hill? (Not a dig at anyone of a less optimistic out look than myself, just a genuine question)

    Lets look at things:

    We went largely unchanged up until the Saints game at home because we were winning and winning well so the old mantra of "don't fix it if isn't broken" was quite rightly being applied. Against Saints, we had a poor first half, but Parky tweaked things at half time - largely in terms of style rather than formation or personel and we went on to dominate, equalise and were perhaps unlucky not to win in the end, but you can't blame Parky for missed opportunities by individuals during the 90mins.

    We then went to Norwich with the same 4-5-1 setup and took a 2 goal lead. It would perhaps be fair to suggest we should have closed that game out, but the goals conceeded were a bright piece of play by Norwich (aided by a laps of concentration by Llera) and a goal keeping error/foul (depending on your view point). As we were already at 4-5-1 Parky's options to make us more solid were pretty limited and by all accounts Norwich were flying second half - sometimes you have to be willing to accept the other team did too much on the day.

    Next up Exeter at home. Not our most fluent performace of the season, but 3 points and no team is brilliant every week. The winning goal was scored by one of Parky's subs and he also brought on Sodje in midfield, albeit quite late, as a measure to help us deal with the long balls Exeter were chucking forward.

    Then Colchester away. Probably the first time it would be truly fair to level criticisms of inaction at Parky - Llera was clearly having a mare and stayed on too long and we didn't switch to 4-4-2 until we were 3-0 down.

    Then Leeds away. The pack was shuffled for the first time when Sodje was brought in and he played a blinder, keeping the danger man Beckford virtually silent. Then in the second half Parky switched Bailey and Racon to great effect and we might have won a very tough away fixture. It's a fair question as to why Parky waited until Saturday to try this again, but no one has yet really given him credit for coming up with the idea in the first place - IIRC, I didn't read anyone on here suggesting it before that game.

    Barnet at home in the JPT next, lots of changes and a resounding 4-1 win - no real cause for any complaint there.

    Oldham at home. Perhaps another opportunity to changes things earlier in the game, but at that point we were still getting good results with plan A and the fitness of our attacking squad players still limited Parky's hand a little, so the overly patient approach is perhaps understandable if not completely justifiable.

    Then Huddersfield at home. The 4-5-1 had looked a bit laboured the previous week and Mcleod had done enough in his substitute cameos to earn a trial at the court of appeal, so this match saw the first switch to 4-4-2. Huddersfield came and attacked and we were found a bit wanting for steel in midfield. Parky cottoned onto this nice and early and brought Semedo on at half time - a defensive move at face value, but it steadied our ship, gave Racon more freedom and we went on to play well and win against a good side. Parky's early sub swung the game our way and the new face in the starting XI scored the winner.

    Then Gills away. Same team as finished the Hudds game, which is a perfectly fair move. Perhaps a bit slow to try and alter things again - but a derby(ish) game against a side with a strong home record in poor conditions. I think it's forgivable to choose to stick rather than twist while we were still drawing, under those circumstances.

    Carlisle away. The first truly poor performance of the season and definitely a case of too late with the changes. Possibly made the wrong changes when they came too.

    Northwich away. Embarrasingly poor performance. 4-5-1 was not ideally suited to the personel on show BUT it was a cup game, way down our list of priorities and with Burton carrying a knock, McKenzie recovering from injury and Mooney cup tied the options were again very limited. For what it's worth I think he was right to protect our better strikers for the league games and can't be held totally responsible for the complete lack of bottle shown by those on the pitch. Changes could have been made earlier again, but just 3 subs were never likely to rescue the game for us when 7 or 8 were so below par, plus it was still 0-0 when the changes came.

    Saints away in the JPT. Again, a low priroty match and a team put out to protect those senior players who were carrying knocks. Switching to 4-4-2 at half time would probably have been the way to go, but did Mckenzie have 45 mins in his legs yet and Burton's hernia needs to be nursed. As with Northwich, I'm not saying Parky got his decisions spot on, but within the context of the importance of the game I think perfectly reasonable arguments can be made for the way he chose to play it.

    MK Dons at home. Back to the real business of League footie and the pack is shuffled - not saying it makes him a tactical genius (most of it has been suggested on here) but he wasn't stuborn with his team and we got the result we all wanted.


    I'm not trying to pretend there aren't things Parky could be doing better - there have definitely been examples of being a bit inactive during matches, but there have been times when he's changed things both before and during matches to good effect. If you take out the two recent cup games which have the mitigating circumstances I outline above, we've maybe dropped 5 to 7 points and gained about the same thanks to changes Parky has/hasn't made before or during matches - that's without metioning how succesfully he utilised the 4-5-1 and our midfielders at the start of the season.

    It's defeinitely one of the weaker areas in his management armoury, but he can't be expected to make the right call every week and I think it's another area where we as fans are showing just how sensitive we are to any vague down turn in form. I guess it's understandable given last season, but it's therefore equally understandable that the players confidence might still be similarly fragile. It those circumstances I think it's possible to make an argument that knee-jerk management could be damaging, too many knee-jerk changes could suggest a lack of confidence in his own selections and the players, in turn unsettling the players when somtimes they need a bit of reassurance and leader with courage in his convictions - "stick at it lads, you are good enough, just keep doing what was winning you games earlier in the season" - that kind of thing. It certainly a difficult blancing act - Pardew was criticised for too much chopping and changing, but Parky apparently now doesn't do it enough. Of course it's all so easy watching from the stands - the solutions are always so obvious when your every move isn't being judged by 20,000 harsh critics and your employer.
  • Good post Exiled and well reasoned.

    Exactly the way I see it as well.
  • Good post and like I've said before, a lot of what Parky does makes sense. He doesn't always get it right, no manager does. Compared to Pardew, it's not often he's changed things for the sake of it, or made a change that never looked like working.

    In the cup games we probably needed McKenzie and/or Burton on much earlier, but I'd much rather us get knocked out of all of them and have them fitter and on form for league games. Burton probably wouldn't have played as well as he did if he started both the cup games, and we know McKenzie is still working on his fitness.
  • post of the season.

    Perspective, examples and balance.

    Parky can and does change things around. As with all managers sometimes they work and sometimes not.
  • edited November 2009
    I think yesterday actually reinforced one of AFKA's three concerns when he wrote:

    ''I really don’t think he knows what to do with JonJo for the best. The split striker role I don’t think is his natural position, particularly as his natural instinct appears to be to drop deeper and be attracted to the ball. Unless he has Burton in front of him occupying the back line, and the midfield behind him dominating possession, it becomes ineffective as he plays too deep, the lone striker becomes too isolated and we don’t get a chance to force play in the final third.''

    Several of us in the post-match thread noted that at the moment we look a better team without Shelvey. That is sad, because despite his extreme youth, he does seem to be the club's most talented footballer.

    So what's going on? I think we have to conclude that the only reason we look better without Shelvey isn't because he's not good enough but because, as AFKA notes, Parkinson doesn't know ''what to do with JonJo for the best''...

    I confess that I don't either, although Scoham offered some excellent analysis in response to my question in the post-match thread. But it must be an on-going matter of concern that we can't find a role for our most talented player.

    There are precedents, of course. One recalls Curbs dropping Murphy to the bench bcause he couldn't work out how to fit him in...
  • I think that once Jojo gets stronger and gains experience he will become more like his idle Steven Gerrard, a combative energetic midfielder who scores goals regularly. He's still got a long way to go, but he is a very useful player to bring in for a few games here and there and to make an impact from the bench when required
  • Exiled Addick - That is an excellent post with which I agree whole heartedly.
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  • [cite]Posted By: nigel w[/cite]I think yesterday actually reinforced one of AFKA's three concerns when he wrote:

    ''I really don’t think he knows what to do with JonJo for the best. The split striker role I don’t think is his natural position, particularly as his natural instinct appears to be to drop deeper and be attracted to the ball. Unless he has Burton in front of him occupying the back line, and the midfield behind him dominating possession, it becomes ineffective as he plays too deep, the lone striker becomes too isolated and we don’t get a chance to force play in the final third.''

    Several of us in the post-match thread noted that at the moment we look a better team without Shelvey. That is sad, because despite his extreme youth, he does seem to be the club's most talented footballer.

    So what's going on? I think we have to conclude that the only reason we look better without Shelvey isn't because he's not good enough but because, as AFKA notes, Parkinson doesn't know ''what to do with JonJo for the best''...

    I confess that I don't either, although Scoham offered some excellent analysis in response to my question in the post-match thread. But it must be an on-going matter of concern that we can't find a role for our most talented player.

    There are precedents, of course. One recalls Curbs dropping Murphy to the bench bcause he couldn't work out how to fit him in...

    Jonjo may be our most "talented" player, but he is not good enough to to play in the team at the moment.

    Realistically there are 3 central midfield positions available if we are now to play 4-4-2 (and Sam as an orthodox winger).
    Bailey, Semedo and Racon are presently the best 3, which leaves Shelvey on the bench until one of these are injured, suspended, lose form or need a rest.
    There is no shame in that. He is only 17 and will probably benefit in the long run.
  • Excellent analysis Exiled.
  • [cite]Posted By: Covered End[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: nigel w[/cite]I think yesterday actually reinforced one of AFKA's three concerns when he wrote:

    ''I really don’t think he knows what to do with JonJo for the best. The split striker role I don’t think is his natural position, particularly as his natural instinct appears to be to drop deeper and be attracted to the ball. Unless he has Burton in front of him occupying the back line, and the midfield behind him dominating possession, it becomes ineffective as he plays too deep, the lone striker becomes too isolated and we don’t get a chance to force play in the final third.''

    Several of us in the post-match thread noted that at the moment we look a better team without Shelvey. That is sad, because despite his extreme youth, he does seem to be the club's most talented footballer.

    So what's going on? I think we have to conclude that the only reason we look better without Shelvey isn't because he's not good enough but because, as AFKA notes, Parkinson doesn't know ''what to do with JonJo for the best''...

    I confess that I don't either, although Scoham offered some excellent analysis in response to my question in the post-match thread. But it must be an on-going matter of concern that we can't find a role for our most talented player.

    There are precedents, of course. One recalls Curbs dropping Murphy to the bench bcause he couldn't work out how to fit him in...

    Jonjo may be our most "talented" player, but he is not good enough to to play in the team at the moment.

    Realistically there are 3 central midfield positions available if we are now to play 4-4-2 (and Sam as an orthodox winger).
    Bailey, Semedo and Racon are presently the best 3, which leaves Shelvey on the bench until one of these are injured, suspended, lose form or need a rest.
    There is no shame in that. He is only 17 and will probably benefit in the long run.

    The best team is not necessarily the best 11 players.

    In our boring mid table Premiership days Kishishev got a game most weeks yet many on here believed that he wasn't good enough and advocated other choices.

    Another example: John Robinson as an individual player had limitations yet he was an essential part of our TEAM.

    Jonjo is probably the best individual player on the books at present but for whatever reason is not fitting into the best team.

    If Uncle reads this I'd be interested in his view as to how JJ would best fit in.
  • Exiled - what a great post, just to add to it.....i do remember at leyton orient when we were 1-0 down, our fans chanting 4-4-2 in anger....he kept it the same, 10 minutes later we were 2-1 up! I remember seeing parkys reaction to burtons winner and it was an angry fist pump at our fans and i just thought to myself fair play parky! It just comes to show he may be slow at making some changes sometimes but im sure all managers are blameworthy of that at some point in their careers, parky seems to know exactly what he is doing and now were back in business!
  • [cite]Posted By: cafc_se7[/cite]Exiled - what a great post, just to add to it.....i do remember at leyton orient when we were 1-0 down, our fans chanting 4-4-2 in anger....he kept it the same, 10 minutes later we were 2-1 up! I remember seeing parkys reaction to burtons winner and it was an angry fist pump at our fans and i just thought to myself fair play parky! It just comes to show he may be slow at making some changes sometimes but im sure all managers are blameworthy of that at some point in their careers, parky seems to know exactly what he is doing and now were back in business!

    Cheers for the feedback guys, took me ages to compose and got me in trouble with the Missus for not getting on with the DIY this morning!

    I agree cafc_se7, Curbs could seem similarly inactive at times and I often found his choice of substitutions baffling.
  • [cite]Posted By: cafc_se7[/cite]Exiled - what a great post, just to add to it.....i do remember at leyton orient when we were 1-0 down, our fans chanting 4-4-2 in anger....he kept it the same, 10 minutes later we were 2-1 up! I remember seeing parkys reaction to burtons winner and it was an angry fist pump at our fans and i just thought to myself fair play parky! It just comes to show he may be slow at making some changes sometimes but im sure all managers are blameworthy of that at some point in their careers, parky seems to know exactly what he is doing and now were back in business!
    Looking back at that game, we had Gray, McLeod and Fleetwood on the bench. Compare that to now, we have more combinations and players that should be up to the standard. Gray and Burton are too similar, McLeod rarely looks good enough when starting games and Fleetwood hasn't scored many at this level for Exeter.
  • Just to echo what others have said. Excellent post exiled.
  • Thanks Exiled, excellent analysis.
  • Exiled - well done you put into words my rambled thoughts.
  • I like ''rambled'', Lancashire lad. Very good word - like a cross between ''scrambled'' and ''rambling'' !
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