[cite]Posted By: northstandsteve[/cite]I'll give you name,who has built teams to get out of this division on feck all,or nearly get out when he was at Brentford.Steve Coppell,people might not like him because of his Palace background,but in my opinion does a very good job at all the clubs he's been at (bar MAN CITY).You wanted a name
well there is one to discuss.
I'd be happy with him if we could get him. Would he want to come here into this mess though? Why should he?
[cite]Posted By: northstandsteve[/cite]I'll give you name,who has built teams to get out of this division on feck all,or nearly get out when he was at Brentford.Steve Coppell,people might not like him because of his Palace background,but in my opinion does a very good job at all the clubs he's been at (bar MAN CITY).You wanted a name
well there is one to discuss.
Very good call, but would he take it?
My ideas were Howe or John Collins, both of whom have demonstrated that they can build a club from bottom to top, but are pretty inexperienced. Your idea is better.
Ok I agree with Dickson returning, without wanting to re-ignite that debate I don't think he's capable of playing up front on his own.
4-4-2 - we have been playing that formation recently, and that ironically has coincided with the poor spell of form. The problem has been getting the right players to play that formation effectively.
If you play Bailey in CM, who goes out wide? Racon? He's ok there, but like Bailey he's too one footed to give us genuine width so you are swapping two players but he has no pace. Alternatively you bring Basey in a LB and play Youga wide left, or maybe try this lad Holden out...
McKenzie I think would have started yesterday, but isn't fully fit. McLeod for all his faults was asked to play up-front on his own yesterday and play in the Burton holding role, which isn't his strength. Come the JPT thing and LK Dons we'll have Mooney and maybe a fitter McKenzie to select from.
I agree with selecting Randolph ahead of Ikeme. We saw last season the consequences of bringing in loanees ahead of club players and this was a chance for Parky to give DR a chance to show what he could do or to put him in the shop window.
Tactically you have to evolve your style of play. I've felt in recent weeks that we became little too predictable and stereotyped and therefore easy to shut down. It's up to Parky to find and implement a plan B and this is his challenge. How the season goes depends on how well he does that.
[cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite] I still want to know what the naysayers would have done as manager knowing that you had to release quite a few players from last year, that you had no money to sign replacements and could only bring in free-transfers and therefore compete with a lot of other clubs for their signatures? Plus you had to restore morale which must have been rock-bottom and do all this by a tight deadline.
Actually, although I did add that I wasn't in the Parky out camp yet, I did put forward a name yesterday which if you applied the criteria suggested by yourself above would seem to fit the bill - Eddie Howe. Given what he's done under the (far worse) circumstances at Bournemouth he'd think managing a club in our position was a breeze. Don't get me wrong I'm NOT saying he'd be the answer but I am saying that there will always be alternatives should the need and situation arise.
[cite]Posted By: northstandsteve[/cite]I'll give you name,who has built teams to get out of this division on feck all,or nearly get out when he was at Brentford.Steve Coppell,people might not like him because of his Palace background,but in my opinion does a very good job at all the clubs he's been at (bar MAN CITY).You wanted a name
well there is one to discuss.
Just to reitertate...I understand (and agree largely with the reasoning ) our predicament and that theres no cubs waiting in the wings to walk us through the red sea and have to make do with what weve got etc
but to those posters who want to give parkinson more time, in line with my original question, what would the circumstances have to be for you to get round to my way of thinking that he isnt the man to get us out of the shit?
If we are not in the top six at Christmas, I would ask Phil nicely to leave. I have no idea why he just got a year extension to his contract.
With our money (refinancing) and our ground, playing squad etc - I would expect us to be pushing for promotion - albeit automatically or via the play offs.
I've already answered this. One full season in charge, and failure to get promotion. I think that's the very least we can give a manager without judging/sacking him.
[cite]Posted By: RodneyCharltonTrotta[/cite]Point is we dont just want to hold our own in this league, surely we want to get straight back out of it which requires more than wins against the teams you mention but capablity against the likes of Norwich, Colchester, Leeds, Gillingham etc.
Rodders, I really think you're getting too angry too soon here, of those 4 games you list all were away and we only lost 1. The one side we've played at home who I expect to be up there at the end of the season is Huddersfield and we beat them and played very well.
You're entitled to your opinion and I'm not saying I disagree with all of it, but you're sounding a bit one-eyed. We've lost our last two and by all accounts we're not playing too fluently at times BUT our 6 game form before Carlisle went W, L, D, W, D, W - I just don't see how anyone can suggest sacking a manager for just 3 defeats in the last 8 games, it's just too early to call it a crisis and if a manager at another club was sacked with his side in a similar position and form I'd be shaking my head in disbelief.
Yesterday was a horribly embarrassing day for us all, and if we see much more of that kind of stuff I might very soon change my tune but now is simply too early to sack - we've had a great spell and a below average spell, if we sack before we find out truly where the team are going to go from here we could just as easly be sacking the man who is going to return us to the heights of our early season form.
[cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite]I still want to know what the naysayers would have done as manager knowing that you had to release quite a few players from last year, that you had no money to sign replacements and could only bring in free-transfers and therefore compete with a lot of other clubs for their signatures? Plus you had to restore morale which must have been rock-bottom and do all this by a tight deadline.
Actually, although I did add that I wasn't in the Parky out camp yet, I did put forward a name yesterday which if you applied the criteria suggested by yourself above would seem to fit the bill - Eddie Howe. Given what he's done under (far worse circustances) at Bournemouth he'd think managing a club in our position was a breeze. Don't get me wrong I'm NOT saying he'd be the answer but I am saying that there will always be alternatives should the need and situation arise.
I didn't see your post yesterday, but I think I'd rather leave him at Bournemouth to gain a little more experience of management. I think he's yet to complete one full season, or even one full year as a manager but has made an admirable start to his managerial career.
[cite]Posted By: RodneyCharltonTrotta[/cite]
Lots of posts saying to keep faith in him and board but seriously what would it take for you if you are one of them defending the current regime to change your opinion and want a change of personnel at management and possibly board level?
Not getting promoted this season
Not getting promoted next?
What?
Ok, i'll answer. Though it does seem strange that it feels like people are attempted to be marginalised just because they are not outraged enough to be demanding blood.
In answer to the question, when the club is in a position, financially and structurely, where it can move forward. Which i don't think it currently is. Until then, attempting the sticking plaster approach, without the right finance, resources and time to put things right, we will keep going round in the same circles every 2 months, 6 months, 12 months, regardless of who the manager is. We might get the odd short-term reaction, but ultimately little will change.
For me too many more performances like yesterday where the players didn't look interested.
Last season, even though we ended up being relegated, the performances were better under Parky than they had been under Pardew.
This season we started with 6 wins in succession and as others say are second!
I wasn't at Carlisle but from what I've read and heard the players displayed a similar lackadaisical "couldn't give a toss" attitude to that displayed yesterday.
I can forgive defeat through lack of ability or sheer bad luck on the day. I get very annoyed when we are defeated because of lack of proper application. The fear in that situation is that the manager has lost the dressing room.
I didn't see your post yesterday, but I think I'd rather leave him at Bournemouth to gain a little more experience of management. I think he's yet to complete one full season, or even one full year as a manager but has made an admirable start to his managerial career.
To be honest I agree, it's too early right now, but you could understand it if his name were in the frame given what he's done with no money, no fan's a points deduction and a transfer embargo. I'll be honest I don't think Parky would have done any better than him in the circumstances and just thrown his name in as a credible alternative.
The bloke is going to go far IMHO and won't be at AFCB for too long.
Not attempting to marginalise at all mate. If anything those of us in the parky out camp are severley in the vocal minority on here.
I am damn angry and pissed off with whats happened/ happening at our club and cant just sit and put things in perspective hoping everything will be ok like ive done for the past few months. Yes weve been in far worse times before and come through it but it doesnt mean that we should accept it now.
As i say for the clubs sake i hope parkinson does turn it around and then ill take it all back.
Unless a takeover, (increasingly unlikely the lower we go) materialises we probably wont be in a financially and structurally sound position unless we make our way back up the leagues, in fact it will deterioate and who knows the board may even get so demoralised they may just pull the plug.
Would have taken second in the league of course but not with the proviso that it meant at this stage wed got 9 points out of last 11 and got knocked out of the first round of the cup by some part timers.
If we were in april or may i wouldnt have even posted this thread but its november and and the start of last season we were flying high before our limitations were revealed and from that experience thats why i have no confidence in the current regime.
[cite]Posted By: RodneyCharltonTrotta[/cite]Not attempting to marginalise at all mate. If anything those of us in the parky out camp are severley in the vocal minority on here.
I am damn angry and pissed off with whats happened/ happening at our club and cant just sit and put things in perspective hoping everything will be ok like ive done for the past few months. Yes weve been in far worse times before and come through it but it doesnt mean that we should accept it now.
As i say for the clubs sake i hope parkinson does turn it around and then ill take it all back.
I think we are all angry at being where we are, but I return to my point about a lack of finance.
Until we get new owners/investors or a promotion we have to accept that we'll be somewhat limited in the choice of player and manager that we can attract. Until then we risk chucking money we don't have after a manager who'll have to be a miracle worker., Until the infrastructure is there and perhaps when one or two promising young players come through the ranks or mature a little (eg Tuna/Wagstaff) then this is the cloth that we are going to have to make our clothes from.
What if we gave Parky his P45 today - BA suggests Eddie Howe, a good up and coming manager, but he's only had 11 months as a manager. Or we get Coppell in - who I think is suspect under pressure (others may disagree). The chances are that we'll be swapping one Parky for another - by which I mean another ex-player turned-coach-turned manager with experience at L1/L2/CCC level who'll bring in his own faults and idiosyncracies as a manager and after a run of poor results we hit the eject button and so it will continue...
[cite]Posted By: RodneyCharltonTrotta[/cite]Would have taken second in the league of course but not with the proviso that it meant at this stage wed got 9 points out of last 11 and got knocked out of the first round of the cup by some part timers.
Ahh, you want perfection then. Gotcha. Does it matter how and when you get the points or just the fact you actually get them?
I'd say if we tumble out of the painty paint cup thing and perform in the next three games in the manner that we have recently (less than a couple of chances), then I'd say it's a slide that's not going to be arrested, then he should leave. I don't care about the scores. Win lose or draw, it doesn't matter, we need to make more than a couple of chances.
[cite]Posted By: RodneyCharltonTrotta[/cite]Would have taken second in the league of course but not with the proviso that it meant at this stage wed got 9 points out of last 11 and got knocked out of the first round of the cup by some part timers.
Ahh, you want perfection then. Gotcha. Does it matter how and when you get the points or just the fact you actually get them?
I dont think asking to beat a non league team with a side of professionals or getting more than relegation form 9points in 11 games is asking for perfection by any stretch.
Couldnt care less if we dont win again until March and then storm the league to get promotion to answer your question but my point is that on what i have so far this year that will not happen and i cant see any confidence- boosting signs of consitency.
[cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite]What if we gave Parky his P45 today - BA suggests Eddie Howe, a good up and coming manager, but he's only had 11 months as a manager. Or we get Coppell in - who I think is suspect under pressure (others may disagree). The chances are that we'll be swapping one Parky for another - by which I mean another ex-player turned-coach-turned manager with experience at L1/L2/CCC level who'll bring in his own faults and idiosyncracies as a manager and after a run of poor results we hit the eject button and so it will continue...
That's my problem with suggestions like Eddie Howe. Any other suggestions are for the likes of Curbs and Coppell, who either aren't realistic financially or just wouldn't want the job and all the pressure and issues that will come with it.
Am I the only one who thinks that some of our fans are only truly happy when we lose matches?
Wins get ignored - even winning runs, as do battling away performances, but every defeat is a sign of imminent doom and gloom, while every misplaced pass, cross or tackle is a sure-fire indication that the player concerned wants out and that Parky has lost the dressing room...
Terrible yesterday, we looked impotent, didnt compete....didnt try and that for me is unforgiveable...its been coming since Norwich away where I think we were lucky to scrape a draw.....Its not good enough, but there again we can whine and whinge until the cows come home as it wont make a shred of difference, as the club just doesnt listen anyway.
On the other hand, hasnt Holloway done well at unfancied Blackpool?
[cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite]Am I the only one who thinks that some of our fans are only truly happy when we lose matches?
Wins get ignored - even winning runs, as do battling away performances, but every defeat is a sign of imminent doom and gloom, while every misplaced pass, cross or tackle is a sure-fire indication that the player concerned wants out and that Parky has lost the dressing room...
You refferring to me? Because I can assure you that's not the case. Do you think i want to be venting my spleen on an internet forum after the humiliation of yesterday and past couple of seasons.
Possibly the fact that as a collective of supporters we have sat by and watched the deteriation of this club and not seen the signs of imminent doom and gloom that we are in the position we are in now....2nd in the 3rd division. knocked out of the cup by semi pros and without a pot to piss in.
Many of those who have voiced displeasure at it are ridiculed and told they are negative, pessimistic and taking joy in the bad times but to be honest its like pissing on someones back and telling them its raining.
Seriously if people still cant see there are such huge problems at our club that are not being resolved and are being allowed to worsen then i really worry about our future cos we are fucked if thats the case.
Brighton chairman on Coppell this week :- "He is enjoying his time out of the game, after leaving Reading last summer, and I think only a very high profile job could tempt him back into football at this time."
I didn't see your post yesterday, but I think I'd rather leave him at Bournemouth to gain a little more experience of management. I think he's yet to complete one full season, or even one full year as a manager but has made an admirable start to his managerial career.
To be honest I agree, it's too early right now, but you could understand itifhis name were in the frame given what he's done with no money, no fan's a points deduction and a transfer embargo. I'll be honest I don't think Parky would have done any better than him in the circumstances and just thrown his name in as a credible alternative.
The bloke is going to go far IMHO and won't be at AFCB for too long.
Re Eddie Howe at Bournemouth, although Bournemouth are top and Howe has done superbly well, he surely isn't good enough for most of the complainers on here.
Bournemouth have lost 4, yes 4 out of 15 league games, which is twice, as many league games as Parky.
They also lost at home to Rochdale last week 0-4, so we would definitley have been calling for his head.
[cite]Posted By: Covered End[/cite]Northstandsteve suggests Coppell for manager:-
Brighton chairman on Coppell this week :- "He is enjoying his time out of the game, after leaving Reading last summer, and I think only a very high profile job could tempt him back into football at this time."
Next suggestion -
I would add to that, that a Reading mate of mine, who's opinion on football I respect, said Reading were woeful for most of last season and played dreadful long-ball football. It is true that he got them into the play-offs but I don't think the Reading fans really felt for a second that they'd win them. He's also got a bit of a track record of buying pups in recent years and also fell out with a few players - most notably Lita.
Not saying I think he's a bad manager but as BFR says above all managers have their own faults and replacing Parkinson with Coppell or any other established name brings absolutely no guarantee of success.
One I think we maybe missed out on is Jim Gannon who did well as Stockport on zero funds and is now doing well in Scotland and he was available in the summer. Having said that, I still think Parky has done a good job in the circumstances up to now - I certainly think he's done enough to earn a bit of patience from us over the next few games at least.
Comments
PP is going nowhere for now, and there's little reason why he should.
My ideas were Howe or John Collins, both of whom have demonstrated that they can build a club from bottom to top, but are pretty inexperienced. Your idea is better.
4-4-2 - we have been playing that formation recently, and that ironically has coincided with the poor spell of form. The problem has been getting the right players to play that formation effectively.
If you play Bailey in CM, who goes out wide? Racon? He's ok there, but like Bailey he's too one footed to give us genuine width so you are swapping two players but he has no pace. Alternatively you bring Basey in a LB and play Youga wide left, or maybe try this lad Holden out...
McKenzie I think would have started yesterday, but isn't fully fit. McLeod for all his faults was asked to play up-front on his own yesterday and play in the Burton holding role, which isn't his strength. Come the JPT thing and LK Dons we'll have Mooney and maybe a fitter McKenzie to select from.
I agree with selecting Randolph ahead of Ikeme. We saw last season the consequences of bringing in loanees ahead of club players and this was a chance for Parky to give DR a chance to show what he could do or to put him in the shop window.
Tactically you have to evolve your style of play. I've felt in recent weeks that we became little too predictable and stereotyped and therefore easy to shut down. It's up to Parky to find and implement a plan B and this is his challenge. How the season goes depends on how well he does that.
Actually, although I did add that I wasn't in the Parky out camp yet, I did put forward a name yesterday which if you applied the criteria suggested by yourself above would seem to fit the bill - Eddie Howe. Given what he's done under the (far worse) circumstances at Bournemouth he'd think managing a club in our position was a breeze. Don't get me wrong I'm NOT saying he'd be the answer but I am saying that there will always be alternatives should the need and situation arise.
Thanks but no, under pressure he's too suspect.
but to those posters who want to give parkinson more time, in line with my original question, what would the circumstances have to be for you to get round to my way of thinking that he isnt the man to get us out of the shit?
No promotion?
Relegation?
Battered (on the pitch) by Millwall?
What?
With our money (refinancing) and our ground, playing squad etc - I would expect us to be pushing for promotion - albeit automatically or via the play offs.
Rodders, I really think you're getting too angry too soon here, of those 4 games you list all were away and we only lost 1. The one side we've played at home who I expect to be up there at the end of the season is Huddersfield and we beat them and played very well.
You're entitled to your opinion and I'm not saying I disagree with all of it, but you're sounding a bit one-eyed. We've lost our last two and by all accounts we're not playing too fluently at times BUT our 6 game form before Carlisle went W, L, D, W, D, W - I just don't see how anyone can suggest sacking a manager for just 3 defeats in the last 8 games, it's just too early to call it a crisis and if a manager at another club was sacked with his side in a similar position and form I'd be shaking my head in disbelief.
Yesterday was a horribly embarrassing day for us all, and if we see much more of that kind of stuff I might very soon change my tune but now is simply too early to sack - we've had a great spell and a below average spell, if we sack before we find out truly where the team are going to go from here we could just as easly be sacking the man who is going to return us to the heights of our early season form.
I didn't see your post yesterday, but I think I'd rather leave him at Bournemouth to gain a little more experience of management. I think he's yet to complete one full season, or even one full year as a manager but has made an admirable start to his managerial career.
Ok, i'll answer. Though it does seem strange that it feels like people are attempted to be marginalised just because they are not outraged enough to be demanding blood.
In answer to the question, when the club is in a position, financially and structurely, where it can move forward. Which i don't think it currently is. Until then, attempting the sticking plaster approach, without the right finance, resources and time to put things right, we will keep going round in the same circles every 2 months, 6 months, 12 months, regardless of who the manager is. We might get the odd short-term reaction, but ultimately little will change.
Last season, even though we ended up being relegated, the performances were better under Parky than they had been under Pardew.
This season we started with 6 wins in succession and as others say are second!
I wasn't at Carlisle but from what I've read and heard the players displayed a similar lackadaisical "couldn't give a toss" attitude to that displayed yesterday.
I can forgive defeat through lack of ability or sheer bad luck on the day. I get very annoyed when we are defeated because of lack of proper application. The fear in that situation is that the manager has lost the dressing room.
I am damn angry and pissed off with whats happened/ happening at our club and cant just sit and put things in perspective hoping everything will be ok like ive done for the past few months. Yes weve been in far worse times before and come through it but it doesnt mean that we should accept it now.
As i say for the clubs sake i hope parkinson does turn it around and then ill take it all back.
Unless a takeover, (increasingly unlikely the lower we go) materialises we probably wont be in a financially and structurally sound position unless we make our way back up the leagues, in fact it will deterioate and who knows the board may even get so demoralised they may just pull the plug.
Would any of us not took 2nd in the league, 2 games lost but (probably) out of all 3 cup competitions if offered in August?
I would just like to add that if we lose to Southend then he has to go.
If we were in april or may i wouldnt have even posted this thread but its november and and the start of last season we were flying high before our limitations were revealed and from that experience thats why i have no confidence in the current regime.
I think we are all angry at being where we are, but I return to my point about a lack of finance.
Until we get new owners/investors or a promotion we have to accept that we'll be somewhat limited in the choice of player and manager that we can attract. Until then we risk chucking money we don't have after a manager who'll have to be a miracle worker., Until the infrastructure is there and perhaps when one or two promising young players come through the ranks or mature a little (eg Tuna/Wagstaff) then this is the cloth that we are going to have to make our clothes from.
What if we gave Parky his P45 today - BA suggests Eddie Howe, a good up and coming manager, but he's only had 11 months as a manager. Or we get Coppell in - who I think is suspect under pressure (others may disagree). The chances are that we'll be swapping one Parky for another - by which I mean another ex-player turned-coach-turned manager with experience at L1/L2/CCC level who'll bring in his own faults and idiosyncracies as a manager and after a run of poor results we hit the eject button and so it will continue...
I dont think asking to beat a non league team with a side of professionals or getting more than relegation form 9points in 11 games is asking for perfection by any stretch.
Couldnt care less if we dont win again until March and then storm the league to get promotion to answer your question but my point is that on what i have so far this year that will not happen and i cant see any confidence- boosting signs of consitency.
Wins get ignored - even winning runs, as do battling away performances, but every defeat is a sign of imminent doom and gloom, while every misplaced pass, cross or tackle is a sure-fire indication that the player concerned wants out and that Parky has lost the dressing room...
On the other hand, hasnt Holloway done well at unfancied Blackpool?
You refferring to me? Because I can assure you that's not the case. Do you think i want to be venting my spleen on an internet forum after the humiliation of yesterday and past couple of seasons.
Possibly the fact that as a collective of supporters we have sat by and watched the deteriation of this club and not seen the signs of imminent doom and gloom that we are in the position we are in now....2nd in the 3rd division. knocked out of the cup by semi pros and without a pot to piss in.
Many of those who have voiced displeasure at it are ridiculed and told they are negative, pessimistic and taking joy in the bad times but to be honest its like pissing on someones back and telling them its raining.
Seriously if people still cant see there are such huge problems at our club that are not being resolved and are being allowed to worsen then i really worry about our future cos we are fucked if thats the case.
Brighton chairman on Coppell this week :- "He is enjoying his time out of the game, after leaving Reading last summer, and I think only a very high profile job could tempt him back into football at this time."
Next suggestion -
Re Eddie Howe at Bournemouth, although Bournemouth are top and Howe has done superbly well, he surely isn't good enough for most of the complainers on here.
Bournemouth have lost 4, yes 4 out of 15 league games, which is twice, as many league games as Parky.
They also lost at home to Rochdale last week 0-4, so we would definitley have been calling for his head.
Next -
I would add to that, that a Reading mate of mine, who's opinion on football I respect, said Reading were woeful for most of last season and played dreadful long-ball football. It is true that he got them into the play-offs but I don't think the Reading fans really felt for a second that they'd win them. He's also got a bit of a track record of buying pups in recent years and also fell out with a few players - most notably Lita.
Not saying I think he's a bad manager but as BFR says above all managers have their own faults and replacing Parkinson with Coppell or any other established name brings absolutely no guarantee of success.
One I think we maybe missed out on is Jim Gannon who did well as Stockport on zero funds and is now doing well in Scotland and he was available in the summer. Having said that, I still think Parky has done a good job in the circumstances up to now - I certainly think he's done enough to earn a bit of patience from us over the next few games at least.
we got wednesday night to get through yet.