I didn't go yesterday but by all accounts it sounds like Burton is looking pretty shattered and Jonjo could do with a breather. Just wondered how people think a McLeod/Burton pairing in a 442 might work out in our next two games??
Burton and shelvey didnt have their best games imho but why does any under par permanance mean that players are shattered or that the players should be 'rested' or the formation changed?
As I say Henry, I didn't go yesterday so I'm going on what a few have said on the match report thread. Good to hear they aren't shattered but I wonder what people who've seen more of the team than me over the last few season would think of a McLeod/Burton partnership?
I think Exeter after the 1st 20 minutes played Burton very well, whenever he got the ball three men were round him, which led to his normal hold up and lay off game being disrupted and causing us major problems of keeping the ball. Would not drop him a he will have other games where it will come off, as in the majority this season. the key now is to learn from how Exeter played him and for the coaching staff to use it to our advantage.
In terms of JJ, not his best game not his worst, still did ok.
If Burton really is "shattered" (and I'm not convinced of that), I'm not sure that pairing him with one of the fastest players in the sqaud would be a good way of giving him the recuperation he needed.
Burton was awful yesterday looked like he did last year, just did not seem interested, Shelvey has he played well this season yet seemed to struggle again yesterday and he is the one i would leave out and just put in another striker.... McLeod gave the defence sonething that was lacking before he come one yesterday pace and movement....
Have some people got out the wrong side of the bed this morning?! I'm not saying they're shattered, i'm going on what others appear to be saying on the match report thread. I was merely asking what people thought of pairing McLeod with Burton!! Simple enough question really
[cite]Posted By: bexleyboy[/cite]Burton was awful yesterday looked like he did last year, just did not seem interested, Shelvey has he played well this season yet seemed to struggle again yesterday and he is the one i would leave out and just put in another striker.... McLeod gave the defence sonething that was lacking before he come one yesterday pace and movement....
Didn't think Burton was awful at all, he worked tirelessly as usual and caused them some problems.....true not one of his better games but to describe him as awful is just way OTT.
[cite]Posted By: bexleyboy[/cite]Burton was awful yesterday looked like he did last year, just did not seem interested, Shelvey has he played well this season yet seemed to struggle again yesterday and he is the one i would leave out and just put in another striker.... McLeod gave the defence sonething that was lacking before he come one yesterday pace and movement....
The comments about Burton are nonsense and expose your prejudice against him. I was surprised when we bought him and his early play for us last season suggested it wasn't a good move. The end of last season and throughout this season I have been much impressed by his hold up play, work rate, influence on young players. In short he has been a revelation. Yesterday started much like previous games. His lay offs were classy, his hold up play excellent. He had a cracking header which their keeper plucked out of the top corner. He did manage to get in the way of a goal bound shot but thats was just one of those things.
In the second half he remained involved but Exeter tightened up on him and that stiffled his hold up play. Parky was right to change things and try the pacey McLeod - which was a decent subsititution. So Burton didn't have his best game but to say he was awful is way, way, way wide of the mark.
I thought Burton worked hard yesterday. some of his hold up play was good and his first touch at times excellent. He just missed a couple of headers and slipped when he had a good chance to score in first half. Certainly was not an awful show from him, maybe a 7 out of 10. Well done to Parky for changing things around in second, let's not forget Burton did play with a broken nose
[cite]Posted By: Valley11[/cite]I didn't go yesterday but by all accounts it sounds like Burton is looking pretty shattered and Jonjo could do with a breather. Just wondered how people think a McLeod/Burton pairing in a 442 might work out in our next two games??
In answer to your question Valley11, I think Burton & McLeod as a pairing could work but not away at Colchester & Leeds. Maybe at home is the place to try it. Big question 442 would give is who to drop in midfield. Not a decision I would want to make but it may be forced soon as there are signs of our current system of play being sussed out.
What I don't get with people is wanting to change all the time when someone has a functional non-sparking game. Bailey works on the left, because he scores and protects Youga; and means that there are usually three strong tacklers in midfield. Sam has been our major factor assist wise on the right for a season and a bit now. Just because one doesn't have an amazing game, with assists and goals doesn't mean you move them out of the side or their functioning position. Everyone moans about Pardew not keeping a settled side and not knowing his best 11. Pardew could not help dropping Sam in and out of side even when defensively he was our most reliable right midfielder and assist wise he was our best threat. This is unquestionably our best 11 atm.
No other striker can enable us to function with our players in a 4-5-1. Burton is scoring and linking play. If he's surrounded by defenders and Shelvey, Bailey and Sam are not close enough whose fault is that? Analyse the bloody match with your brain. A lone forward can not operate successfully without support, it does not mean he's disinterested, if the midfield is not supporting perfectly it does mean balls will be inaccurate and defenders have much more time to attack it whilst Burton won't be able to pivot play. Just like when thousands of moronic fans got on Iwelumo's back for not holding the ball up when the midfield was just on the edge of our box hitting the worst balls I've ever seen at Charlton. When a striker has to run constantly towards average-poor ball, outnumbered and then make a committed challenge every time what do you think happens to him? Is he going to be fresh by the sixtieth minute, for god's sake the best lone striker in the world Drogba would be shot as well by the sitxtieth minute with play like that.
I'm not criticising you Valley 11 as you express an oppinion to discuss. I am criticising those who can't place an oppinion in perspective on how much work a player is doing off ball without support. In answer to your question Valley 11, we can not play without Burton. Mcleod would be a disaster as a lone striker, what do you think would happen with three defenders around him and a pumped long ball? The team becomes weaker in a 4-4-2 as we already lose phases with a five man midfield, so we'd be back to last seasons much longer phases where we capitulate territory wise. Until we get say a Kandol, the sad fact is he has to play week in week out. I'd suggest it's imperative by the end of next month to have someone else that can give Burton a rest when we start playing two matches a week.
Burton was woeful yday to be honest. he didn't look up for it but then again like mentioned above somewhere i think we should keep it at 4-5-1 for Col U away
Burton was not woeful or disinterested. Exeter changed their team slightly, they moved one of the centre backs into just in front of the defensive, and crowded out Burton or Shelvey when they had the ball in that space. Burton suffered because of that, it was hard for players to support him and hard for him to get the ball to them or hold it up.
Exeter did a better job on Burton than most opponents if not all have this season.
Have to agree with a lot of what Colin said. Burton is very important, the way the team is set up gets the best out of all of them, and it's clearly our best 11. McKenzie might be able to do Burton's job, but we won't know until he's fit and given a chance. Apart from possibly McKenzie, no other striker at the club is capable of what Burton is doing for the team. To add to that work, he's scoring and creating goals. He did enough yesterday, can do better though as he's shown, though Exeter's change in formation was part of the reason he gave away the ball, not a lack of effort.
[cite]Posted By: Scoham[/cite]Burton was not woeful or disinterested. Exeter changed their team slightly, they moved one of the centre backs into just in front of the defensive, and crowded out Burton or Shelvey when they had the ball in that space. Burton suffered because of that, it was hard for players to support him and hard for him to get the ball to them or hold it up.
Exeter did a better job on Burton than most opponents if not all have this season.
Have to agree with a lot of what Colin said. Burton is very important, the way the team is set up gets the best out of all of them, and it's clearly our best 11. McKenzie might be able to do Burton's job, but we won't know until he's fit and given a chance. Apart from possibly McKenzie, no other striker at the club is capable of what Burton is doing for the team. To add to that work, he's scoring and creating goals. He did enough yesterday, can do better though as he's shown, though Exeter's change in formation was part of the reason he gave away the ball, not a lack of effort.
agree with most of that. My problem is that if Exeter can change their normal game to stifle ours why can't we change our normal game to give them something to think about instead of perservering when it obviously isn't working. Perhaps a Plan B might help ?
[cite]Posted By: LargeAddick[/cite]agree with most of that. My problem is that if Exeter can change their normal game to stifle ours why can't we change our normal game to give them something to think about instead of perservering when it obviously isn't working. Perhaps a Plan B might help ?
Wasn't bringing on Mckenzie plan B? I was level with the Exeter penalty spot in both halves and was able to watch Burton,he was closed down faster than any other game this season, by more than one player. it is the first time this has happened against us this season and we struggled to an extent, that will happen, now on the training ground the coaching staff need to work with the team to exploit the concentration of defenders on JJ and Burton to create space for others to exploit.
If Exeter were double-marking Burton then that should - in theory at least - give us a spare man which means that Shelvey or Bailey should be free to receive the ball when we are looking for an outlet.
Teams are starting to suss out our style to some extent so we need to prove we are not a one-trick outfit by not just bringing on McLeod but by then altering our style once he comes on rather than using him as a target man like Burton because he does not suit that role.
I would like to see us play some 4-4-2 at some point (if we lose a few games with the 4-5-1) with Burton and McLeod up front with Shelvey going wide left and Bailey coming into the middle with Racon and Semedo going to the bench.
I would not change things just yet though - but we do need a plan B.
Anyone who thinks Burton was crap yesterday (and there were pletny of them round me in the North Upper) is a prat who knows f*** all about football. My eleven year old nephew came to the game with me yesterday - he's only been playing football for two years and he remarked on how well Burton held the ball up at half time. He also noted during the second half that they were man-marking him with another centre half dropping off to try and stop him doing anything with the ball if he did manage to bring it down. Simple fact is that Exeter dealt with Burton very well - but it didn't stop him grafting away as he always does. The more I see him, the more I like him.
[cite]Posted By: LargeAddick[/cite]Perhaps a Plan B might help ?
[cite]Posted By: Ormiston Addick[/cite]but we do need a plan B.
When we win a game fairly comfortably we need a plan B?
WHY?
We only need a plan "B" when it's not working and we're not winning.
Burton done well yesterday. FACT!
thought burton did ok ,maybe a change to 4 4 2 could help take the burden off him like to see mckenzie when fit and burton together ,at the moment the system we are playing is working ok so i dont see any reason to change it , but i do feel the system we are playing is accomadating certain players?
However we do need a plan b - and a plan c, come to that. A good team has various permutations and styles it can adopt according to different match circumstances.
May be Parky has got his plans b and c. We don't know because he hasn't needed to deploy them yet. The time will come - and then we'll see, won't we?
Perhaps get some g plan furniture for the dug out :-)
Our best ever start to the season and one of only two teams out of 92 still unbeaten so Im very glad the manager hasn' been chopping and changing. Fans were chanting 442 at Orient but then we promptly scored.
If Burton had 2 or 3 on him, we should have pushed a couple up to support him, but that needs the defence to compress play. If I hadn't watched a game all season I'd have said that to play a 17yo at least once a week is too much. The fact that Jonjo has been inconsistent, to me cries out that he is tired. I wonder if the players are tested for lactic acid build up etc?
I think we could play McLeod and keep the 4-5-1 by moving Bailey into the Jonjo role, with the advantage that it could change to 4-4-2 as required.
[cite]Posted By: Kap10[/cite]As said before isn't Mcleod for Burton a plan b? Should we now be looking at plan c?
It is, but if McLeod comes on for Burton then the whole team will have to adapt because Burton is THE outball on most occasions and is excellent at that role.
If we play longer balls up to McLeod then the ball will just come straight back again because that's not his game, we need to work on releasing him down the channels so he can run at or past defenders.
Burton has been great BUT I am a bit worried that we are getting over-reliant on him and would not mind a solid back up plan for when he is injured or suspended.
Against Exeter, when McLeod came on he didn't play the hold up target man role that Burton had been playing.
So it wasn't really like for like, it was a different role altogether.
Exeter had pushed up, making most of the play in our half. That meant that on the break there was plenty of space in the Exeter half to release McLeod (and later, Waggy) with a quick ball over or through the Exeter defence for him to run on to.
McLeod is strong and pacy, and can be a real handful for tiring defenders - and Exeter had to change their plan which had put Burton in their pocket.
As others have said, Exeter did a job on Burton and to an extent Shelvey. Think if either of the two looked tired it was Shelvey and I would have brought Mcleod on in tandem with Burton rather than instead of, probably at Jonjo's expense.
Comments
Burton and shelvey didnt have their best games imho but why does any under par permanance mean that players are shattered or that the players should be 'rested' or the formation changed?
Good to hear they aren't shattered but I wonder what people who've seen more of the team than me over the last few season would think of a McLeod/Burton partnership?
In terms of JJ, not his best game not his worst, still did ok.
I'm not saying they're shattered, i'm going on what others appear to be saying on the match report thread. I was merely asking what people thought of pairing McLeod with Burton!! Simple enough question really
Didn't think Burton was awful at all, he worked tirelessly as usual and caused them some problems.....true not one of his better games but to describe him as awful is just way OTT.
Not having a go at you but then you get idiots like bexleyboy saying things like burton wasnt interested.
He played with a broken nose last week ffs.
As i said over reaction. Exeter saw that burton is a threat and did a job. Their CHs were both decent and closeh down well.
The comments about Burton are nonsense and expose your prejudice against him. I was surprised when we bought him and his early play for us last season suggested it wasn't a good move. The end of last season and throughout this season I have been much impressed by his hold up play, work rate, influence on young players. In short he has been a revelation. Yesterday started much like previous games. His lay offs were classy, his hold up play excellent. He had a cracking header which their keeper plucked out of the top corner. He did manage to get in the way of a goal bound shot but thats was just one of those things.
In the second half he remained involved but Exeter tightened up on him and that stiffled his hold up play. Parky was right to change things and try the pacey McLeod - which was a decent subsititution. So Burton didn't have his best game but to say he was awful is way, way, way wide of the mark.
In answer to your question Valley11, I think Burton & McLeod as a pairing could work but not away at Colchester & Leeds. Maybe at home is the place to try it. Big question 442 would give is who to drop in midfield. Not a decision I would want to make but it may be forced soon as there are signs of our current system of play being sussed out.
No other striker can enable us to function with our players in a 4-5-1. Burton is scoring and linking play. If he's surrounded by defenders and Shelvey, Bailey and Sam are not close enough whose fault is that? Analyse the bloody match with your brain. A lone forward can not operate successfully without support, it does not mean he's disinterested, if the midfield is not supporting perfectly it does mean balls will be inaccurate and defenders have much more time to attack it whilst Burton won't be able to pivot play. Just like when thousands of moronic fans got on Iwelumo's back for not holding the ball up when the midfield was just on the edge of our box hitting the worst balls I've ever seen at Charlton. When a striker has to run constantly towards average-poor ball, outnumbered and then make a committed challenge every time what do you think happens to him? Is he going to be fresh by the sixtieth minute, for god's sake the best lone striker in the world Drogba would be shot as well by the sitxtieth minute with play like that.
I'm not criticising you Valley 11 as you express an oppinion to discuss. I am criticising those who can't place an oppinion in perspective on how much work a player is doing off ball without support. In answer to your question Valley 11, we can not play without Burton. Mcleod would be a disaster as a lone striker, what do you think would happen with three defenders around him and a pumped long ball? The team becomes weaker in a 4-4-2 as we already lose phases with a five man midfield, so we'd be back to last seasons much longer phases where we capitulate territory wise. Until we get say a Kandol, the sad fact is he has to play week in week out. I'd suggest it's imperative by the end of next month to have someone else that can give Burton a rest when we start playing two matches a week.
Exeter did a better job on Burton than most opponents if not all have this season.
Have to agree with a lot of what Colin said. Burton is very important, the way the team is set up gets the best out of all of them, and it's clearly our best 11. McKenzie might be able to do Burton's job, but we won't know until he's fit and given a chance. Apart from possibly McKenzie, no other striker at the club is capable of what Burton is doing for the team. To add to that work, he's scoring and creating goals. He did enough yesterday, can do better though as he's shown, though Exeter's change in formation was part of the reason he gave away the ball, not a lack of effort.
agree with most of that. My problem is that if Exeter can change their normal game to stifle ours why can't we change our normal game to give them something to think about instead of perservering when it obviously isn't working. Perhaps a Plan B might help ?
Wasn't bringing on Mckenzie plan B? I was level with the Exeter penalty spot in both halves and was able to watch Burton,he was closed down faster than any other game this season, by more than one player. it is the first time this has happened against us this season and we struggled to an extent, that will happen, now on the training ground the coaching staff need to work with the team to exploit the concentration of defenders on JJ and Burton to create space for others to exploit.
Teams are starting to suss out our style to some extent so we need to prove we are not a one-trick outfit by not just bringing on McLeod but by then altering our style once he comes on rather than using him as a target man like Burton because he does not suit that role.
I would like to see us play some 4-4-2 at some point (if we lose a few games with the 4-5-1) with Burton and McLeod up front with Shelvey going wide left and Bailey coming into the middle with Racon and Semedo going to the bench.
I would not change things just yet though - but we do need a plan B.
When we win a game fairly comfortably we need a plan B?
WHY?
We only need a plan "B" when it's not working and we're not winning.
Burton done well yesterday. FACT!
However we do need a plan b - and a plan c, come to that. A good team has various permutations and styles it can adopt according to different match circumstances.
May be Parky has got his plans b and c. We don't know because he hasn't needed to deploy them yet. The time will come - and then we'll see, won't we?
Our best ever start to the season and one of only two teams out of 92 still unbeaten so Im very glad the manager hasn' been chopping and changing. Fans were chanting 442 at Orient but then we promptly scored.
I think we could play McLeod and keep the 4-5-1 by moving Bailey into the Jonjo role, with the advantage that it could change to 4-4-2 as required.
It is, but if McLeod comes on for Burton then the whole team will have to adapt because Burton is THE outball on most occasions and is excellent at that role.
If we play longer balls up to McLeod then the ball will just come straight back again because that's not his game, we need to work on releasing him down the channels so he can run at or past defenders.
Burton has been great BUT I am a bit worried that we are getting over-reliant on him and would not mind a solid back up plan for when he is injured or suspended.
So it wasn't really like for like, it was a different role altogether.
Exeter had pushed up, making most of the play in our half. That meant that on the break there was plenty of space in the Exeter half to release McLeod (and later, Waggy) with a quick ball over or through the Exeter defence for him to run on to.
McLeod is strong and pacy, and can be a real handful for tiring defenders - and Exeter had to change their plan which had put Burton in their pocket.