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Deon and Leon: what a difference

edited September 2009 in General Charlton
So when Parky made Deon Burton his first signing, we (me included) all leapt about in rage:

"is this what Charlton has come to?"
"We've sunk to a new low"
"He's just Marcus Bent lite!"

A few months on, and now we acknowledge that Parky is a genius in picking up Leon McKenzie, another journeyman striker, on a freebie.

How our tune has changed, eh - just shows how a few good results can rebuild trust and confidence!
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Comments

  • I havent seen much of Leon McKenzie to be honest. Il save my judgement until i have.

    Deon is certainly playing well at the moment and is being played to his strengths by PP.
  • Yea it is strange how that works but it is true so long as the results keep coming in will be happy. Wouldnt say im siging Deons praises hes done well but he still gives up on loose balls to easy but with league position and results so far im not really bothered so long as we dont loose saturday (which i cannot see hapening.
  • Back in January I don't think anyone really wanted to accept we were going down to League One, and players like Burton were the level of player we would be signing. Don't think many would have been convinced if we signed Richardson or Llera in January either.
  • Burton's always sweated for the shirt but along with many others, I didn't really feel that he was effective enough.

    But now most people understand that the team is set up to score goals from midfield, and that Burton is the fulcrum of much of that.

    And that he plays selflessly for the team, like Shaun Bartlett used to do.
    And got flack for.
  • [cite]Posted By: Oggy Red[/cite]Burton's always sweated for the shirt but along with many others, I didn't really feel that he was effective enough.

    But now most people understand that the team is set up to score goals from midfield, and that Burton is the fulcrum of much of that.

    And that he plays selflessly for the team, like Shaun Bartlett used to do.
    And got flack for.

    a bit off subject, but like Heskey did for England. BTW im not comparing Capello to Parkinson....yet :)
  • [cite]Posted By: valleygary[/cite]
    ..... BTW im not comparing Capello to Parkinson....yet :)

    Parkello ......?
  • edited September 2009
    [cite]Posted By: Weegie Addick[/cite]
    How our tune has changed, eh - just shows how a few good results can rebuild trust and confidence!

    Or that some of the players (Not All) as I suspect have just found their level or a level they look good at !
  • [quote][cite]Posted By: Ketman[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: Weegie Addick[/cite]
    How our tune has changed, eh - just shows how a few good results can rebuild trust and confidence![/quote]

    Or that some of the players (Not All) as I suspect have just found their level or a level they look good at ![/quote]

    SECONDED
  • edited September 2009
    A few months on, and now we acknowledge that Parky is a genius in picking up Leon McKenzie, another journeyman striker, on a freebie.

    ..........

    Let's wait until he's scored a few goals, made a few assists and kept himself injury free before we laud this acquisition.

    I don't think that Leon's ability or desire have ever been in doubt, but his injury record suggests we are taking a punt.
  • I prefer a Parky punt to Pardew's though, plus the fitness coach seems to be doing well, presumably he gets to have a say?
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  • What sort of striker is he? Pacy, hold up (which I doubt), or just a fox in the box?
  • SE7SE7
    edited September 2009
    I honestly believe when deon arrived he wasn't appreciated enough and hence his poor performances, he was probably low on confidence, kind of like Varney. However, now he has found form he is scoring and gets reaction from the fans ans seems to be enjoying life alot more at charlton. Also it must be hard for a player to seetle following years of moving around to different clubs on a free, must damage his confiedence quite a bit.

    Also never really seen Leon play so I am gonna wait before I start moaning, although by his stature i would guess like Burton he is more of a hold up player but from his goal scoring record he doesn't seem a bad catch for this league. l'm happy with Sodje and Holden though so well done Phil.
  • [cite]Posted By: Charlieee[/cite]What sort of striker is he? Pacy, hold up (which I doubt), or just a fox in the box?

    Have asked a Coventry fan, says he's quick, has a decent work rate but crossing is poor, though he says he's not a winger. He'd have been happy to keep him as he's decent cover, and is sure he'll cut in League One especially if we play him up front.

    I'd imagine Parky wanted someone as an alternative to Burton and someone that could play alongside him, so hopefully with his pace he can do that, and it'll be a bonus if he can hold up the ball if Burton can't play.
  • can't comment - not allowed to otherwise I'll get slagged off and moaned at for being too negative.

    LOL.........

    of course I'll comment. Still don't rate Burton that highly, 2 goals in five games isn't that great a return and on Sat at Tranmere I think he had his worse game this season. IMHO we still need a forward who will run with the ball, take on defenders and shoot !!
  • Burton might have his flaws and is not a long term solution...but undeniably he is playing out of his socks at the moment and is a great team player to boot. It isn't ideal that we play with only one striker and a short one at that, but his work rate and team ethic allows us to play five in midfield and utilise our team strength there and his work rate minimises the weakness of going into matches with one striker. As long as we keep winning and as long as the team keep scoring then I haven't a problem with playing 4-5-1 and the number of different goal scorers that we've had this year already (I make that seven different goalscorers) makes it difficult for other teams to know how to defend against us. Who do you close down? Bailey on the left maybe..but that opens up a gap elsewhere, perhaps teams wil start double marking Shelvey as a lot of link play goes through him, but then that maybe leaves one of Bailey, Racon, Burton or Sam unmarked and they can all score or set up goals. Then you have to worry about defenders getting forward.

    4-5-1 isn't ideal, but the way we are playing it maximises our strengths and consequently it is fast becoming a problem for our opponents to solve.
  • [quote][cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite]

    4-5-1 isn't ideal, but the way we are playing it maximises our strengths and consequently it is fast becoming a problem for our opponents to solve.[/quote]

    Agreed, at the moment 4-5-1 is the perfect way of bringing our midfielders into the game, usually 4-5-1 would seem like a defensive tactical move but the way we are playing at the moment the flooded midfield has allowed fullbacks to overlap and midfielders to play of the heels and knock downs of Deon. Means Deons got to work hard so I dont see him lasting the whole season but at the moment its really working
  • edited September 2009
    [cite]Posted By: golfaddick[/cite]can't comment - not allowed to otherwise I'll get slagged off and moaned at for being too negative.

    LOL.........

    of course I'll comment. Still don't rate Burton that highly, 2 goals in five games isn't that great a return and on Sat at Tranmere I think he had his worse game this season. IMHO we still need a forward who will run with the ball, take on defenders and shoot !!

    Given his role is to hold it up and move it on to the flair players, it is a good return. How many players at this level are quick, can hold the ball up, take on defenders and score goals? I don't think we can afford Ibrahimovic.
  • I like the 4-5-1 formation. If played correctly it can be very good defensively and then quickly turn to 4-3-3 when attacking. Seems to be working a treat so far.

    I think it will be interesting if we fall behind and Parky has to change things and go after the game. Then we might see if Burton & Mackenzie can play together.
  • I think it will be interesting if we fall behind and Parky has to change things and go after the game.

    ............

    We went a goal down vs Orient, maintained a 4-5-1 formation and of course won, whether we'd have kept that formation if we were still 1-0 down with ten minutes to go is a moot point, but our control of the midfield enabled us to keep control of that game, the chances came and were taken.

    On paper 4-5-1 is a defensive formation, but with any tactic or formation it is how it's used and whether the players understand what is expected of them and do enough to make it work, to date they have done.
  • Exactly. PP didnt need to change things and go after the game. Go 2-0 down or be behind with 10 mins to go and we almost certainly will. (maybe this is what you mean by moot point...never known what that means!)

    Suppose the answer to that is dont go 2-0 down :)
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  • maybe this is what you mean by moot point...never known what that means!)

    .........

    Essentially a point that is open to debate and discussion, in otherwords two people could have different views on the matter.

    The origin is Anglo-Saxon - deriving from a Volkmoot or Folkmoot where a number of people would meet to discuss what to do about the vikings or whatever was exercising their minds at the time. This was one of the earliest precursors of our current Parliament.
  • Now i understand. Ta.
  • [cite]Posted By: golfaddick[/cite]2 goals in five games isn't that great a return

    That is 18/19 goals in a 46 game season - there won't be 10 strikers who score that many league goals.

    To add to the 4-5-1 debate - it's only defensive if the 5 midfielders are a flat 5, which ours clearly aren't. Given we're the second top scorers so far (we're on 13 goals, Huddersfield have 14, 7 against Brighton) there is little evidence to suggest we're playing defensively.
  • That's actually very interesting, BFR.

    So Folkmoot = simply means peoples' meeting.

    Logically then = a 'moot point' is a point made at a meeting.
  • Logically then = a 'moot point' is a point made at a meeting.

    ..........


    It's more as I say a debateable point where two points of view could be held that might be diametrically opposed - or at least differ widely enough that some form of consensus and general agreement needs to be reached. Hence here we are debating the wisdom of 4-4-2 vs 4-5-1, equally we could debate whether we should eat an egg from the sharp or the rounded end.

    The term "moot" is currently used mostly in law where advocates argue the toss over a point of law as part of their training.
  • [cite]Posted By: dabos[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: golfaddick[/cite]2 goals in five games isn't that great a return

    That is 18/19 goals in a 46 game season - there won't be 10 strikers who score that many league goals.

    To add to the 4-5-1 debate - it's only defensive if the 5 midfielders are a flat 5, which ours clearly aren't. Given we're the second top scorers so far (we're on 13 goals, Huddersfield have 14, 7 against Brighton) there is little evidence to suggest we're playing defensively.

    To add to Dabos' point, we're actually playing 4-4-1-1 with Shelvey in the hole being given a free role, alternately becoming the second striker or the prime attacking midfielder = in effect, a very loose 4-4-2.

    Also, we are at our best when the midfield 4 play further up the park.

    Which means, the midfield is the main scoring threat, ghosting in late from deeper positions, frequently not being picked up by defenders. Bailey, particularly profits with these tactics.

    Last season we frequently found ourselves defending desperately and erratically on our 18 yard line, letting our opponents get within shooting distance - which cost us dearly.

    Another point, and maybe not so obvious, is by pushing the midfield further up the park - we're actually defending from the front ..... denying time and space and closing down opponents in their own half, and enabling us to win back the loose ball, thus building another attack and keeping pressure on opponents.

    It also gives our defenders more time to read the situation and position themselves effectively when faced with a breakaway attack.

    Just some of the reasons why we can control games for sustained periods.
  • To add to Dabos' point, we're actually playing 4-4-1-1 with Shelvey in the hole being given a free role, alternately becoming the second striker or the prime attacking midfielder = in effect, a very loose 4-4-2.

    ..........

    I'd argue that we are playing 4-1-3-1-1

    With Semedo playing the defensive/Makalele role, with three midfielders generally ahead of him and Shelvey being the fulcrum of the attack. Whatever we are doing doesn't really matter - because it works.
  • Basically we're playing the system Mourinho used to lead Chelsea to the Premiership title with a record points total, yet with more entertaining football.

    Ergo hence therefore
    Parky is better than Mourinho
    QED, FACT etc etc
  • [cite]Posted By: dabos[/cite]Basically we're playing the system Mourinho used to lead Chelsea to the Premiership title with a record points total, yet with more entertaining football.

    Could say that, and of course it doesn't matter, but he played with more out and out wingers didn't he? It would be like us pushing Sam and Bailey right up, with Shelvey and Semedo both playing deeper.
  • [cite]Posted By: golfaddick[/cite]f course I'll comment. Still don't rate Burton that highly, 2 goals in five games isn't that great a return and on Sat at Tranmere I think he had his worse game this season. IMHO we still need a forward who will run with the ball, take on defenders and shoot !!

    Golfie, I have a spare pair of my rose tinted spectacles which I'll gladly give you for nix....:o)

    On Saturday Burton created the second goal for Semedo with a great back heel which would have graced the Premier League, his movement in pulling defenders wide gave space for us to torment Tranmere down the flanks. His first touch and close control was excellent and he put off their keeper for the fourth goal. The one blemish was the missed header. Otherwise he had a great game as a team player.
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