Good post Sailor. We as fans have been far too tolerant, faithful and forgiving of the board in recent years. Perhaps if we had been more vocal, things could have been very different.
[cite]Posted By: queensland_addick[/cite]We as fans have been far too tolerant, faithful and forgiving of the board in recent years. Perhaps if we had been more vocal, things could have been very different.
You would have found yourself looking at a ban on here for not toeing the line!
Interesting post and one I would probably have disagreed with not that long ago, but I can't fault it. It was a great board headed by Murray and in the trimuvirate of Murray, Curbs and Varney we achieved great things, but the last 4 years or so have been a disaster and whilst some decisions can be rationalised to a degree, each one made has compounded the disater of the previous one.
I can't wait till this board gets back to talking about football and all i want is not Premiership football, but a well run club that plays attractive entertaining football on the field and one that we are not embarrassed by in the board room.
[cite]Posted By: queensland_addick[/cite]We as fans have been far too tolerant, faithful and forgiving of the board in recent years. Perhaps if we had been more vocal, things could have been very different.
You would have found yourself looking at a ban on here for not toeing the line!
What a silly comment I have seen a few people really giving the board crap!
Don't give me that bollox that you'll get a ban on here a NON OFFICIAL CHARLTON FAN'S site for stating your opinion on an OPINION BASED forum!
[cite]Posted By: queensland_addick[/cite]We as fans have been far too tolerant, faithful and forgiving of the board in recent years. Perhaps if we had been more vocal, things could have been very different.
You would have found yourself looking at a ban on here for not toeing the line!
That's a popular line amongst a very small number of people who appear unable to distinguish between personal abuse and reasoned argument. We've moved into the "what if......" time, it's hellish and I suspect that quite a few of us are pondering this question. We are a broad church and always will be, that's one of the things I love best. I hope that an outbreak of tolerance reaches one and all, because we really need each other at the moment. It's hard sometimes to put aside personal feelings and hurt feelings, but I would suggest that it is precisely what we need to try and do.
I do agree but it`s very hard to achieve in this climate of uncertainty, rumour and speculation. Good reason to get this thing out into the open and concluded.
[cite]Posted By: stilladdicted[/cite]We are a broad church and always will be, that's one of the things I love best.
I’ve heard a rumour that, sadly, the Murray Evangelicals are about to be excommunicated.
I was passing their shiny, ambitious church this morning and there was just one person in there.
A tallish, bulky figure in the shadows next to the delightful little shrine of St Richard the Spinner. He had lit a candle and was holding a tiny effigy in his big hands sobbing, ’How could you do this to me! How could you do this to me!’
I was going to comfort the poor creature but I had to rush off as on Monday mornings Ooh Aah, Len and I lay fresh flowers at the tomb of Llewellyn the Great.
It used to be a fairly quiet place but just recently it’s been getting busier.
I said to the Warden if there were plans for expanding the public area to deal with the unexpected influx of new worshippers. He just smiled sheepishly and said ‘praps’.
I am afraid that some of the comments on here smack of revisionism and it saddens me.
I remember back in the Curbs days poster after poster exaulting the club to spend more and more money. Curbs produced boring football which once "safety" had been achieved, the players would go on a virtual holiday. That wasn't good enough for many. Understandable but the risks of stretching the clubs resources were balanced by the risks of maintaining the status quo. My personal view is the club had punched above it's weight for years and without a shed load of additional investment, it would be folly to stretch the resources too thinly.
The board then took some risks. Bring in a manager who talked a good game especially with his powerpoint skills. Throw money at him quickly because pre-season was about to start. Bring in the skills of Andrew Mills, and see what players you could get for your money.
That threw up Jimmy Floyd Piggybaink, Jimmy Traore, Sorondo who was permanently injured, the American bloke who never played for us, the sicknote that was Andy Reid, Diawara who clearly wasn't that good and one or two fringe players.
The die was cast and from then on disaster piled upon disaster. The decision to sack Dowie - we still don't know why but that was very un-Charlton like. The decision to appoint Sir Les as manager when he clearly was going to be a temporary one. That led inexorably to the understandable but in some ways worst decision of the lot, to appoint the ego that is Alan Pardew when the club was in a very weak bargaining position and give him enough rope to hang himself and the club.
It seems to me that since then the club and the Board in particular has been in a kind of paralysis, unable to contemplate the likely denouement. But here we appear to be, with the club on the brink, the money gone, the slow lingering death that now has emerged into the light.
It may take 10 years or more before the club can challenge again for the top table but lets hope there will be club to mount that challenge.
As ever Sailor, an entertaining and well wrote piece.
But with your dolloping headlines, you can add a degree of hindsight to it. It is very easy to be wise after the event, and 'told you so' arguments can be painful and demoralising to read at low times. The constant referrals back to Curbs time by you and others does nothing but allianate others, in my opinion. It is from an era that is already so far in our past.
The Concentration now has to be on the here and now, and ways forward, otherwise we're all going to be at crossroads with each other.
[cite]Posted By: bingaddick[/cite]Curbs produced boring football which once "safety" had been achieved, the players would go on a virtual holiday. That wasn't good enough for many. Understandable but the risks of stretching the clubs resources were balanced by the risks of maintaining the status quo. My personal view is the club had punched above it's weight for years and without a shed load of additional investment, it would be folly to stretch the resources too thinly.
The board then took some risks. Bring in a manager who talked a good game especially with his powerpoint skills. Throw money at him quickly because pre-season was about to start. Bring in the skills of Andrew Mills, and see what players you could get for your money.
That threw up Jimmy Floyd Piggybaink, Jimmy Traore, Sorondo who was permanently injured, the American bloke who never played for us, the sicknote that was Andy Reid, Diawara who clearly wasn't that good and one or two fringe players.
The die was cast and from then on disaster piled upon disaster.
You're right Bing. Curbs copped more flak than many will admit! It was staggering that people moaned about mid-table finishes and 'boring' 4-5-1. We achieved some unbelievable results and a number with that very formation. There was certainly enough criticism of Curbs, and his ability to take us further, that the man himself became aware of it and has mentioned it in several interviews.
The decision by Murray to throw huge amounts of cash (by our standards) at a manager unproven at The Valley (Mr Dowie) in the very year we needed to stay up to secure the higher rate of Sky Tv money (30M) was arguably his biggest mistake from a financial point of view.
Down we went with players on telephone number salaries and major transfer fees invested.
I think the cautious route (which was always the Curbs, Varney approach previously) and keeping AC in control for his final year to make sure nothing terrible (like relegation) occurred was clearly the best option - even at the time.
But RM got a little carried away with what had been achieved and we started acting and dealing like a top ten club when, on paper, we clearly weren't. The Mills appointment was a clear example of Boardroom grandeur.
I think our first relegation, despite all this, is understandable as things don't always pan out as you want them to, but what has happened since, in our supposed attempts to get back up to the top flight has been truly awful and staggering. That has been the straw that has broken the camel's back. After seven odd years in the Prem, a club like ours should have been right up there competing for a bounce-back. We should have been far too strong but by then we were already cutting our cloth.
The well-run club was built on sand and that's why we find ourselves in this dark hole. The facts are there.
I love the self serving smug posts that can be produced when you have the great ability of hindsight.
You have to put your trust in people sometimes - and the men who ran my football club seemed to be doing EVERYTHING right from the moment they took over. I quite happily put my faith in them when things started to go wrong - because I believed they were aware of their errors and could rectify them - or at least put us back on an even footing.
I may have been a fool to have thought that and certainly some of the recent rumblings seem to indicate that I (and several others) have seen things with rose tinted spectacles. But I'm an optimist. Always have been.
OK, so you've 'told me so'. But please show some humility and stop having a dig at people on here for attempting to put positive spin on certain situations. After all these people love the Club - just like the Board - and are part of everything that can be 'right' about CAFC.
[cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]As ever Sailor, an entertaining and well wrote piece.
But with your dolloping headlines, you can add a degree of hindsight to it. It is very easy to be wise after the event, and 'told you so' arguments can be painful and demoralising to read at low times. The constant referrals back to Curbs time by you and others does nothing but allianate others, in my opinion. It is from an era that is already so far in our past.
The Concentration now has to be on the here and now, and ways forward, otherwise we're all going to be at crossroads with each other.
Many thanks AFKA for the compliment.
With regard to content, that was my first post in almost six months (!) so your comment about 'constant referrals' is entirely inaccurate.
But this is an open forum if I am not mistaken, and this is a free country, so I guess if I want to make a point which I regard as relevant I will - irrespective of what others might think about its merit or otherwise.
One could reverse the argument and suggest that your post was 'always' coming as whenever anyone does invoke the past, someone invariably tells them to leave it be. Quite often that person is you if I am brutally honest mate.
The past, present and future are all equally important and in life we can learn a lot from history. I wonder how many posters would moan about being stuck in the middle of the Premier League if we get back there in a few years and after what we are going through now?
It would be 'history' that taught us that lesson.
As for 'wise after the event', I wanted Pardew sacked 12 months ago and when Zabeel came in I thought that finally we'd be able to get a decent manager in as this man was seriously damaging the club and its prospects.
I think that is/was foresight in actuality.
But when you set up this message board AFKA the one thing I imagine you wanted was a kaleidoscope of opinion. it would be boring if we were 'advised' away from certain subjects by moderators or even others posters.
But thanks for the feedback. It is a terrible time for OUR club, and all of us fans, and so differences of opinion are an inevitable consequence. Feeling 'low' is something shared by everyone, it isn't mutually exclusive.
If anyone feels alienated by anything I have written I'd suggest they toughen up a little and get a few things into perspective. We are talking about a football club's message board not living through ethnic cleansing or abject starvation in a war-torn country.
I respect your opinion and hopefully you'll understand mine.
[cite]Posted By: Addickted[/cite]I love the self serving smug posts that can be produced when you have the great ability of hindsight.
You have to put your trust in people sometimes - and the men who ran my football club seemed to be doing EVERYTHING right from the moment they took over. I quite happily put my faith in them when things started to go wrong - because I believed they were aware of their errors and could rectify them - or at least put us back on an even footing.
I may have been a fool to have thought that and certainly some of the recent rumblings seem to indicate that I (and several others) have seen things with rose tinted spectacles. But I'm an optimist. Always have been.
OK, so you've 'told me so'. But please show some humility and stop having a dig at people on here for attempting to put positive spin on certain situations. After all these people love the Club - just like the Board - and are part of everything thatcan be'right' about CAFC.
Brilliant.
There are people out there who seem to want us to be trouble so thay can say 'aren't I clever, told you so, blimey why couldn't anyone else see this coming'
[cite]Posted By: SoundAsa£[/cite]Brown Eye...who are you?
Why are you always so morbidly fascinated by 'who' people are !! This is a forum were people wish to chew the fat on all things Charlton. If people wish to maintain their anomility, then they are perfectly within their means.
There are many, many reasons why some people don't disclose their real identity, and the majority of them are not because someone has an agenda.
[cite]Posted By: SoundAsa£[/cite]Brown Eye...who are you?
Why are you always so morbidly fascinated by 'who' people are !! This is a forum were people wish to chew the fat on all things Charlton. If people wish to maintain their anomility, then they are perfectly within their means.
There are many, many reasons why some people don't disclose their real identity, and the majority of them are not because someone has an agenda.
Murray has admitted to his mistakes, so I really don't see the point in slating him for them at this stage. These errors have been outlined on here in triplicate for years. I want to know what the value of that is other than self satisfaction?
I am more cynical than some however I have faith that RM has always done what he thought was best for CAFC, including trying to sell to buyers who were right for Charlton and not just some Tom Dick and Harry.
This is an open forum and opinions can be given, and thankfully then criticised/argued, etc and barring deleting/banning AFKA has as much right as anyone to respond in anyway he feels within the rules and regs.
[cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]Why are you always so morbidly fascinated by 'who' people are !! This is a forum were people wish to chew the fat on all things Charlton. If people wish to maintain their anomility, then they are perfectly within their means.
There are many, many reasons why some people don't disclose their real identity, and the majority of them are not because someone has an agenda.
Comments
You would have found yourself looking at a ban on here for not toeing the line!
I can't wait till this board gets back to talking about football and all i want is not Premiership football, but a well run club that plays attractive entertaining football on the field and one that we are not embarrassed by in the board room.
What a silly comment I have seen a few people really giving the board crap!
Don't give me that bollox that you'll get a ban on here a NON OFFICIAL CHARLTON FAN'S site for stating your opinion on an OPINION BASED forum!
the rose tinted - diminshing daily
say it as you see it
moaners with an agenda
mix into those groups a varying amount of ITKs, bulls****ers, guessers and don't knows, and possibly don't cares..
those wishing to denigrate the opinion of their dissenters then sling whichever label is appropriate
Sometimes very difficult to tell these apart on here
That's a popular line amongst a very small number of people who appear unable to distinguish between personal abuse and reasoned argument. We've moved into the "what if......" time, it's hellish and I suspect that quite a few of us are pondering this question. We are a broad church and always will be, that's one of the things I love best. I hope that an outbreak of tolerance reaches one and all, because we really need each other at the moment. It's hard sometimes to put aside personal feelings and hurt feelings, but I would suggest that it is precisely what we need to try and do.
I’ve heard a rumour that, sadly, the Murray Evangelicals are about to be excommunicated.
I was passing their shiny, ambitious church this morning and there was just one person in there.
A tallish, bulky figure in the shadows next to the delightful little shrine of St Richard the Spinner. He had lit a candle and was holding a tiny effigy in his big hands sobbing, ’How could you do this to me! How could you do this to me!’
I was going to comfort the poor creature but I had to rush off as on Monday mornings Ooh Aah, Len and I lay fresh flowers at the tomb of Llewellyn the Great.
It used to be a fairly quiet place but just recently it’s been getting busier.
I said to the Warden if there were plans for expanding the public area to deal with the unexpected influx of new worshippers. He just smiled sheepishly and said ‘praps’.
;-)
(only joshing)
Thanks very much for that! Also thank you Queensland for your words me ol sport!
I remember back in the Curbs days poster after poster exaulting the club to spend more and more money. Curbs produced boring football which once "safety" had been achieved, the players would go on a virtual holiday. That wasn't good enough for many. Understandable but the risks of stretching the clubs resources were balanced by the risks of maintaining the status quo. My personal view is the club had punched above it's weight for years and without a shed load of additional investment, it would be folly to stretch the resources too thinly.
The board then took some risks. Bring in a manager who talked a good game especially with his powerpoint skills. Throw money at him quickly because pre-season was about to start. Bring in the skills of Andrew Mills, and see what players you could get for your money.
That threw up Jimmy Floyd Piggybaink, Jimmy Traore, Sorondo who was permanently injured, the American bloke who never played for us, the sicknote that was Andy Reid, Diawara who clearly wasn't that good and one or two fringe players.
The die was cast and from then on disaster piled upon disaster. The decision to sack Dowie - we still don't know why but that was very un-Charlton like. The decision to appoint Sir Les as manager when he clearly was going to be a temporary one. That led inexorably to the understandable but in some ways worst decision of the lot, to appoint the ego that is Alan Pardew when the club was in a very weak bargaining position and give him enough rope to hang himself and the club.
It seems to me that since then the club and the Board in particular has been in a kind of paralysis, unable to contemplate the likely denouement. But here we appear to be, with the club on the brink, the money gone, the slow lingering death that now has emerged into the light.
It may take 10 years or more before the club can challenge again for the top table but lets hope there will be club to mount that challenge.
But with your dolloping headlines, you can add a degree of hindsight to it. It is very easy to be wise after the event, and 'told you so' arguments can be painful and demoralising to read at low times. The constant referrals back to Curbs time by you and others does nothing but allianate others, in my opinion. It is from an era that is already so far in our past.
The Concentration now has to be on the here and now, and ways forward, otherwise we're all going to be at crossroads with each other.
You're right Bing. Curbs copped more flak than many will admit! It was staggering that people moaned about mid-table finishes and 'boring' 4-5-1. We achieved some unbelievable results and a number with that very formation. There was certainly enough criticism of Curbs, and his ability to take us further, that the man himself became aware of it and has mentioned it in several interviews.
The decision by Murray to throw huge amounts of cash (by our standards) at a manager unproven at The Valley (Mr Dowie) in the very year we needed to stay up to secure the higher rate of Sky Tv money (30M) was arguably his biggest mistake from a financial point of view.
Down we went with players on telephone number salaries and major transfer fees invested.
I think the cautious route (which was always the Curbs, Varney approach previously) and keeping AC in control for his final year to make sure nothing terrible (like relegation) occurred was clearly the best option - even at the time.
But RM got a little carried away with what had been achieved and we started acting and dealing like a top ten club when, on paper, we clearly weren't. The Mills appointment was a clear example of Boardroom grandeur.
I think our first relegation, despite all this, is understandable as things don't always pan out as you want them to, but what has happened since, in our supposed attempts to get back up to the top flight has been truly awful and staggering. That has been the straw that has broken the camel's back. After seven odd years in the Prem, a club like ours should have been right up there competing for a bounce-back. We should have been far too strong but by then we were already cutting our cloth.
The well-run club was built on sand and that's why we find ourselves in this dark hole. The facts are there.
You have to put your trust in people sometimes - and the men who ran my football club seemed to be doing EVERYTHING right from the moment they took over. I quite happily put my faith in them when things started to go wrong - because I believed they were aware of their errors and could rectify them - or at least put us back on an even footing.
I may have been a fool to have thought that and certainly some of the recent rumblings seem to indicate that I (and several others) have seen things with rose tinted spectacles. But I'm an optimist. Always have been.
OK, so you've 'told me so'. But please show some humility and stop having a dig at people on here for attempting to put positive spin on certain situations. After all these people love the Club - just like the Board - and are part of everything that can be 'right' about CAFC.
Many thanks AFKA for the compliment.
With regard to content, that was my first post in almost six months (!) so your comment about 'constant referrals' is entirely inaccurate.
But this is an open forum if I am not mistaken, and this is a free country, so I guess if I want to make a point which I regard as relevant I will - irrespective of what others might think about its merit or otherwise.
One could reverse the argument and suggest that your post was 'always' coming as whenever anyone does invoke the past, someone invariably tells them to leave it be. Quite often that person is you if I am brutally honest mate.
The past, present and future are all equally important and in life we can learn a lot from history. I wonder how many posters would moan about being stuck in the middle of the Premier League if we get back there in a few years and after what we are going through now?
It would be 'history' that taught us that lesson.
As for 'wise after the event', I wanted Pardew sacked 12 months ago and when Zabeel came in I thought that finally we'd be able to get a decent manager in as this man was seriously damaging the club and its prospects.
I think that is/was foresight in actuality.
But when you set up this message board AFKA the one thing I imagine you wanted was a kaleidoscope of opinion. it would be boring if we were 'advised' away from certain subjects by moderators or even others posters.
But thanks for the feedback. It is a terrible time for OUR club, and all of us fans, and so differences of opinion are an inevitable consequence. Feeling 'low' is something shared by everyone, it isn't mutually exclusive.
If anyone feels alienated by anything I have written I'd suggest they toughen up a little and get a few things into perspective. We are talking about a football club's message board not living through ethnic cleansing or abject starvation in a war-torn country.
I respect your opinion and hopefully you'll understand mine.
;-)
Brilliant.
There are people out there who seem to want us to be trouble so thay can say 'aren't I clever, told you so, blimey why couldn't anyone else see this coming'
Why are you always so morbidly fascinated by 'who' people are !! This is a forum were people wish to chew the fat on all things Charlton. If people wish to maintain their anomility, then they are perfectly within their means.
There are many, many reasons why some people don't disclose their real identity, and the majority of them are not because someone has an agenda.
We know mistakes have been made in the past, but as for what is happening now - we are still in the dark.
Don't go off half-cocked as they say.
I like to know who my enemies are!..LOL!
I am more cynical than some however I have faith that RM has always done what he thought was best for CAFC, including trying to sell to buyers who were right for Charlton and not just some Tom Dick and Harry.
This is an open forum and opinions can be given, and thankfully then criticised/argued, etc and barring deleting/banning AFKA has as much right as anyone to respond in anyway he feels within the rules and regs.
Is it only me or is everyone now singing Pogues tunes and annoying their workmates?
All together now........One summer evening drunk to hell, I stood there nearly lifeless
well said afka.