First and foremost I want a succesful manager, of course I do - my point is I think their chances of success are far greater if they fit in. I know I'm happier working with people I get along with and feel I have something in common with than I am working with people I don't like/don't identify with.
It's not impossible to stamp your own ways on a club, but it's not easy. Even the great Brian Clough had a blot on his copy book because he just wasn't the right man for Leeds, regardless of his fantastic achievemnets elsewhere.
Massive ego, and self proclaimed 'Guvnor'. Pards Mk2 imo. If he comes I'll put my pre-judgements asside and judge him as I find him. Not one for me though if I were doing the hiring and firing.
Suspect you're right though and it'll be Parky next season, and if that's how it goes he'll have my full backing too. If there's one thing the club needs more than anything else now, it's to all be pulling in the same direction again and if Parky is th direction the board want us to pull in, then I'll swallow my pride and pull!
I'm not a particlular fan of Ince as a person persae and you are right he has a humungous ego and no mistake but in the managerial arena he has been prepared to get his hands dirty with Macclesfield and MK Dons, the jump to the Prem was to much to soon or possibly he just didn't cut it. I feel is worthy of another tier 2 or 3 appointment and if he stuff's that up then perhaps his early successes were just a flash in the pan.
I liked Pardew's pomp initially, felt we needed to get a bit nasty at the time we were in the dropzone but it soon became grating and he lost the plot in spectacular fashion. I would like Charlton to take a chance on Ince but as I said, I'm sure it won't happen. PP will be here in August and we must hope that the reasonable finish to the season (reasonable only when you consider how dire the rest of it was) will continue and then we can all happily eat humble pie.
[cite]Posted By: pilchard[/cite]All this not a Charlton type stuff annoys me, he has a great track record at the lower level and would add some steel and balls to our club which have been missing for so long that most of us have forgotten that such qualities even exist, I suppose PP is the Charlton type because he's nice and doesnt cost much, perhaps we need to have a winning type rather than a Charlton type.
I wouldn't say he has a great track record at all. A good season (near enough) with Macclesfield, and a good season with MK Dons.
Bit like Parkinson had a good season with Colchester, and Boothroyd had a good season with Watford. A few seasons later they are no longer seen as good managers like they were before.
We have to be very careful, just because Ince has had more recent success than Parkinson doesn't mean he's definitely a much better manager.
Ince's ego often gets brought up, do we want another manager like that after having one similar quite recently?
Any manager that comes in or if Parky stays needs to be given time, that is the only way for long term success in my opinion, chopping and changing doesn't work generally, might do for a short term fix, like to avoid relegation but seeing as though we missed that trick whoever is manager at the beginning of the season should be manager at the end come what may.
I agree Scoh, I think if we're going to take punts we're better taking a punt on someone who has done well at his last club and will be stepping up to us rather than back down after failing at their last club.
We've made too much of a habit of bringing in players and managers that have failed at their last clubs, in the hope we can get the best out of them. It's a system that worked wonders for Allardyce at Bolton, but it's been a bloody disaster for us and I think we should change tac. That's why I'm pleased to see us linked with people like Llera - I don't think MK Dons really want to let him go which is a decent reference in itself.
[cite]Posted By: Exiled_Addick[/cite]I agree Scoh, I think if we're going to take punts we're better taking a punt on someone who has done well at his last club and will be stepping up to us rather than back down after failing at their last club.
I think that's the way to go at the moment, perhaps with the right mix though, the odd player released from a Championship club for example might be a worthwhile signing.
At least we're forced to look for the best available for what we have now, two years ago Pardew went out and paid far too much money on Varney, McLeod etc. If he had £1m to spend on 2 or 3 strikers he'd have had to look for bargains, if you know what I mean. Instead he gambled a lot of money on several players (add to that Racon, Yassin, Sinclair and frees like Semedo, Todorov, Weaver etc on decent wages) with varying success.
Now instead of signing several players hoping they'll develop, we need players that can come straight in and do a good job. Llera should be that type of player, most of Pardew's signings 2 summers ago were the opposite. Gambles on players with injury problems like Weaver and Todorov, expensive lower league players, rather than perhaps an older lower league player with less potential, and foreign players that need time to adapt.
PAUL INCE'S MANAGERIAL RECORD
BLACKBURN Played 19 Won 6 Drawn 4 Lost 9 Win % 31.5
MK DONS (2007-08) Played 55 Won 33 Drawn 12 Lost 10 Win % 60
MACCLESFIELD (2006-07) Played 35 Won 14 Drawn 8 Lost 13 Win % 40
[cite]Posted By: pilchard[/cite]All this not a Charlton type stuff annoys me, he has a great track record at the lower level and would add some steel and balls to our club which have been missing for so long that most of us have forgotten that such qualities even exist, I suppose PP is the Charlton type because he's nice and doesnt cost much, perhaps we need to have a winning type rather than a Charlton type.
I wouldn't say he has a great track record at all. A good season (near enough) with Macclesfield, and a good season with MK Dons.
Bit like Parkinson had a good season with Colchester, and Boothroyd had a good season with Watford. A few seasons later they are no longer seen as good managers like they were before.
We have to be very careful, just because Ince has had more recent success than Parkinson doesn't mean he's definitely a much better manager.
Ince's ego often gets brought up, do we want another manager like that after having one similar quite recently?
Given that his managerial career has been relatively short he has done well IMO (Blackburn fashionably excepted and even then his record was better than anything PP has achieved here with us), his achievements at both his first two clubs were decent bordering on great given the quality and resources he had at his disposal IMO. Your comparisons with Boothroyd could indeed be valid Scoh but then again he could do well again given the right circumstances, whether that be Charlton or not who can say.
Who would we get at this point in time who had done well at his last club and whom would be prepared to step up/down? Sean Driscoll perhaps- but would he drop a league like Simon Grayson? Kenny Jackett doing good things at the rust box?
As I have said before, Ince may have been a flash in the pan or maybe not but there is nothing to say that he can't get things right again elsewhere or even here, but it is all academic as we have PP now and we may as well get used to it because thats where we are at nowadays.
I can't see into the future, but am able to make judgements based on experiences, and i can't see what Phil Parkinson achieved that couldn't have been achieved by picking players names from a hat. There are some who 'feel' Parkinson will do a good job for us in the future, absolutely a triumph of hope over experience. I tend to agree that Phil Parkinson should revert to trainer, or scout, or warmer upper...and in the absence of an alternative option, the team should be picked by a rotation of supporters chosen by a lucky number in the programme.
I agree, he has done nothing that couldnt be done using exactly the methods you describe Seth, but there tends to be an aura of acceptance regarding PP, I don't want him but he appears to be here to stay, making all talk of a successor sadly redundant.
Would Ince be running out of the tunnel half wearing his shirt? If yes and we can afford him, get him in. Can't do worse than Parky and will be part of my pre match entertainment.
Getting an affordable alternative to Parky who is appreciably better will be no easy task (unless of course the mythical takeover/influx of funds happens).
I would ask the "Parky out" fans to name some possible replacements.
Micky Adams and Steve Tilson are the only names I can come up with and they are at the same level so may well see a move to us as a move sideways.
[cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite]I also see Ince as a Pardew Mark 2.
The big difference I see between Ince and Pardew is that Ince wouldn`t allow players to regularly under perform and disapear from matches like Pardew did. There is no way on earth that the squad we had last season should have been relegated. Says a lot about the coaching imho.
[cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite]I also see Ince as a Pardew Mark 2.
Getting an affordable alternative to Parky who is appreciably better will be no easy task (unless of course the mythical takeover/influx of funds happens).
I would ask the "Parky out" fans to name some possible replacements.
Micky Adams and Steve Tilson are the only names I can come up with and they are at the same level so may well see a move to us as a move sideways.
Tisdale at Exeter would be my shout - 2 promotions in 2 seasons but would do very well to take them much past League 1 level. Would definitely see us a step up, young, used to working on a budget and would come to us on a high - he'd be looking to progress his career and prove he can handle the expectations of a bigger fan base, rather than prove he's not past it. Subtle difference maybe, and probably no more of a guarantee of success but I think we're a big(ish) fish in a small pond now so we should start acting like a carnivore and feed of smaller clubs, rather than scavanging for others leftovers, unless there's a good meal to be pinched from higher up (this analogy is faltering somewhat!) - like a Adkins or Driscol, but I'd be surprised if we could pick up either of them.
What is all this about affordability? If Ince feels he can take us somewhere and we feel the same it would be the right job. Surely that's all an out of work manager is looking for? The right job?
I thought the Blackburn job was a step up too far for him but I like him as a man manager, tactically he would need some help.
Either way, I worry that if we leave it much longer it'll be too late to get a new manager in.
Possible replacement is Jim Gannon, did a fine job at stockport with no money getting them to league1, establishing them and if it was not for fninaces could have got them to play offs. also he is out of work so cheap Ince imo did not do as bad at blackburn at people think considering santa cruz was injured, he had to replace a great manager in mark hughes who'd overachieved and they'd lost players like Friedlel , if he had been given longer then they'd have stayed up. if not boothroyd or steve cotterill
[cite]Posted By: BigRedEvil[/cite]PAUL INCE'S MANAGERIAL RECORD
BLACKBURN Played 19 Won 6 Drawn 4 Lost 9 Win % 31.5
MK DONS (2007-08) Played 55 Won 33 Drawn 12 Lost 10 Win % 60
MACCLESFIELD (2006-07) Played 35 Won 14 Drawn 8 Lost 13 Win % 40
Better record than:
Parky
Played-28 Won 4 Drawn 11 Lost 13 Win % 14
Better record (at his big failure, Blackburn alone) than our previous 4 managers.
I think the other thing that you have to look at is what he did at Mac. Took over when they were doomed and adrift by a long way and kept them up.
The problem with Paul Ince is that half a decent season and he'll be off. I'd like to see a manager who'll grow with the club and be around for two-three seasons which is what we'll need to achieve promotion and re-establish ourselves as a strong club in the CCC. If we get promoted next year I can see him thinking - job done and buggering off to a bigger/better established club.
[cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite]The problem with Paul Ince is that half a decent season and he'll be off. I'd like to see a manager who'll grow with the club and be around for two-three seasons which is what we'll need to achieve promotion and re-establish ourselves as a strong club in the CCC. If we get promoted next year I can see him thinking - job done and buggering off to a bigger/better established club.
That's the feeling I get from him. An offer from a club a division above and I doubt he'd turn it down. I'm just not completely convinced by him yet.
[cite]Posted By: seth plum[/cite]
I tend to agree that Phil Parkinson should revert to trainer, or scout, or warmer upper...and in the absence of an alternative option,
the team should be picked by a rotation of supporters chosen by a lucky number in the programme.
Surely, Steve Waggott should get the chance to pick the team....... ?
[cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]Thought it was common knowledge that Steve Waggott did pick the team hence the improvement seen towards end of season.
Micky Adams and Steve Tilson are the only names I can come up with and they are at the same level so may well see a move to us as a move sideways.[/quote]
Micky Adams took the Port Vale job back on 4th June so that counts him out. There isn't anyone out there and with the club so skint we haven't got the resources to pay off PP and get someone else in. I could be wrong but it'll surely be PP next season.
Comments
It's not impossible to stamp your own ways on a club, but it's not easy. Even the great Brian Clough had a blot on his copy book because he just wasn't the right man for Leeds, regardless of his fantastic achievemnets elsewhere.
Suspect you're right though and it'll be Parky next season, and if that's how it goes he'll have my full backing too. If there's one thing the club needs more than anything else now, it's to all be pulling in the same direction again and if Parky is th direction the board want us to pull in, then I'll swallow my pride and pull!
I liked Pardew's pomp initially, felt we needed to get a bit nasty at the time we were in the dropzone but it soon became grating and he lost the plot in spectacular fashion. I would like Charlton to take a chance on Ince but as I said, I'm sure it won't happen. PP will be here in August and we must hope that the reasonable finish to the season (reasonable only when you consider how dire the rest of it was) will continue and then we can all happily eat humble pie.
I wouldn't say he has a great track record at all. A good season (near enough) with Macclesfield, and a good season with MK Dons.
Bit like Parkinson had a good season with Colchester, and Boothroyd had a good season with Watford. A few seasons later they are no longer seen as good managers like they were before.
We have to be very careful, just because Ince has had more recent success than Parkinson doesn't mean he's definitely a much better manager.
Ince's ego often gets brought up, do we want another manager like that after having one similar quite recently?
We've made too much of a habit of bringing in players and managers that have failed at their last clubs, in the hope we can get the best out of them. It's a system that worked wonders for Allardyce at Bolton, but it's been a bloody disaster for us and I think we should change tac. That's why I'm pleased to see us linked with people like Llera - I don't think MK Dons really want to let him go which is a decent reference in itself.
I think that's the way to go at the moment, perhaps with the right mix though, the odd player released from a Championship club for example might be a worthwhile signing.
At least we're forced to look for the best available for what we have now, two years ago Pardew went out and paid far too much money on Varney, McLeod etc. If he had £1m to spend on 2 or 3 strikers he'd have had to look for bargains, if you know what I mean. Instead he gambled a lot of money on several players (add to that Racon, Yassin, Sinclair and frees like Semedo, Todorov, Weaver etc on decent wages) with varying success.
Now instead of signing several players hoping they'll develop, we need players that can come straight in and do a good job. Llera should be that type of player, most of Pardew's signings 2 summers ago were the opposite. Gambles on players with injury problems like Weaver and Todorov, expensive lower league players, rather than perhaps an older lower league player with less potential, and foreign players that need time to adapt.
BLACKBURN Played 19 Won 6 Drawn 4 Lost 9 Win % 31.5
MK DONS (2007-08) Played 55 Won 33 Drawn 12 Lost 10 Win % 60
MACCLESFIELD (2006-07) Played 35 Won 14 Drawn 8 Lost 13 Win % 40
Better record than:
Parky
Played-28 Won 4 Drawn 11 Lost 13 Win % 14
Given that his managerial career has been relatively short he has done well IMO (Blackburn fashionably excepted and even then his record was better than anything PP has achieved here with us), his achievements at both his first two clubs were decent bordering on great given the quality and resources he had at his disposal IMO. Your comparisons with Boothroyd could indeed be valid Scoh but then again he could do well again given the right circumstances, whether that be Charlton or not who can say.
Who would we get at this point in time who had done well at his last club and whom would be prepared to step up/down? Sean Driscoll perhaps- but would he drop a league like Simon Grayson? Kenny Jackett doing good things at the rust box?
As I have said before, Ince may have been a flash in the pan or maybe not but there is nothing to say that he can't get things right again elsewhere or even here, but it is all academic as we have PP now and we may as well get used to it because thats where we are at nowadays.
Getting an affordable alternative to Parky who is appreciably better will be no easy task (unless of course the mythical takeover/influx of funds happens).
I would ask the "Parky out" fans to name some possible replacements.
Micky Adams and Steve Tilson are the only names I can come up with and they are at the same level so may well see a move to us as a move sideways.
The big difference I see between Ince and Pardew is that Ince wouldn`t allow players to regularly under perform and disapear from matches like Pardew did. There is no way on earth that the squad we had last season should have been relegated. Says a lot about the coaching imho.
Tisdale at Exeter would be my shout - 2 promotions in 2 seasons but would do very well to take them much past League 1 level. Would definitely see us a step up, young, used to working on a budget and would come to us on a high - he'd be looking to progress his career and prove he can handle the expectations of a bigger fan base, rather than prove he's not past it. Subtle difference maybe, and probably no more of a guarantee of success but I think we're a big(ish) fish in a small pond now so we should start acting like a carnivore and feed of smaller clubs, rather than scavanging for others leftovers, unless there's a good meal to be pinched from higher up (this analogy is faltering somewhat!) - like a Adkins or Driscol, but I'd be surprised if we could pick up either of them.
I thought the Blackburn job was a step up too far for him but I like him as a man manager, tactically he would need some help.
Either way, I worry that if we leave it much longer it'll be too late to get a new manager in.
Ince imo did not do as bad at blackburn at people think considering santa cruz was injured, he had to replace a great manager in mark hughes who'd overachieved and they'd lost players like Friedlel , if he had been given longer then they'd have stayed up.
if not boothroyd or steve cotterill
I think the other thing that you have to look at is what he did at Mac. Took over when they were doomed and adrift by a long way and kept them up.
That's the feeling I get from him. An offer from a club a division above and I doubt he'd turn it down. I'm just not completely convinced by him yet.
Surely, Steve Waggott should get the chance to pick the team....... ?
;o)
i'd love half a decent season as opposed to the dross that we've been served for the last 3 years.
Certainly made to work for his salary isnt he!!
Micky Adams took the Port Vale job back on 4th June so that counts him out. There isn't anyone out there and with the club so skint we haven't got the resources to pay off PP and get someone else in. I could be wrong but it'll surely be PP next season.