I said what I said, Nigel ....simply because I can't see what benefit it would have at this time.
Any event that you seem to want would be hijacked by the media and turned into some very public humiliation - and then we'd surely be the laughing stock of the football world. BFR above has put it much more eloquently than I could.
Maybe you believe we're already a laughing stock - but in my experience talking to other club's supporters recently, they are simply puzzled and curious as to why Charlton has crashed and burned in the way we have, but generally there's no ridicule.
I've no doubt there's plenty going on behind the scenes currently. And that's where it should stay for now.
They'll come a time soon I'm sure, when perhaps through the Fans Forum, some discussion and Board self-analysis will be shared with the supporter base.
But I can't see what good it would do if it was to happen now.
[cite]Posted By: Oggy Red[/cite]Blame culture is endemic in 21st century society.
Bring back public executions I say. A good hanging never did anyone any harm.
Although the bad ones were more entertaining.
I thought Murray had accepted responsibility, whilst also including Pardew in the mix.
The hanging analogy of course is wrong. the board should nominate one of its members to go onto the pitch after the game against Norwich to perform the ritual of Seppuku. This could even be voted on by members of Charlton Life, so that a fair choice could be made, not just the board member most disliked by his colleagues. seppuku
[cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite]Given that the Board appointed both Dowie and Pardew (in fairness with the blessing of the fans in Pardew's case) it is all too clear that the buck stops there hence the silence.
For all of the wonderful things that Richard Murray has done for Charlton, he is also responsible for Dowie, Reed, Pardew and Parky.
Trusting Dowie was the worst; trusting in Pardew a close second. Parky makes Les Reed look like Brian Clough (or at least Peter Taylor).
Murray is still held in high esteem, and no one wants to put it all on him. But hiring Dowie ... My God. And then Coventry, then QPR, now Newcastle.
Temporary insanity seems to a common affliction amoung club chairmen the past few years!
[cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite]Given that the Board appointed both Dowie and Pardew (in fairness with the blessing of the fans in Pardew's case) it is all too clear that the buck stops there hence the silence.
For all of the wonderful things that Richard Murray has done for Charlton, he is also responsible for Dowie, Reed, Pardew and Parky.
Trusting Dowie was the worst; trusting in Pardew a close second. Parky makes Les Reed look like Brian Clough (or at least Peter Taylor).
Murray is still held in high esteem, and no one wants to put it all on him. But hiring Dowie ... My God.And then Coventry, then QPR, now Newcastle.
Temporary insanity seems to a common affliction amoung club chairmen the past few years!
During his time with Coventry & QPR - Dowie averaged 1.5 points per Championship game! A very respectable accomplishment & enough this season to be pushing for a play-off place.
He is statistically a significantly better Championship manager than our Parky.
[cite]Posted By: Oakster[/cite]During his time with Coventry & QPR - Dowie averaged 1.5 points per Championship game! A very respectable accomplishment & enough this season to be pushing for a play-off place.
He is statistically a significantly better Championship manager than our Parky.
exactly but we'll forget that and accept that 12 premiership games was long enough to judge him as our manager..... if he'd have stayed i don't even think he'd have got us to our present position cos his championship record is fairly good just like parkinsons third tier record !!
[quote][cite]Posted By: wellie[/cite]Its now about how good a Division 1 Manager he is. Lets see what sort of squad he's left with in the summer and judge him from there.[/quote]
Len Glover said 'leaving Parky in a position whereby he could only sign has beens or loans which hardly gave him the best opportunity of stopping the rot.'
didn't stop Brendan Rodgers or Billy Davies though did it and they have signed nowhere near as many loanees/has been's as Parky has.
[cite]Posted By: wellie[/cite]Its now about how good a Division 1 Manager he is. Lets see what sort of squad he's left with in the summer and judge him from there.
I'd rather judge him on what he has done so far rather than letting him have another bash and cock it up again.
Why are people so sensitive about addressing the title of this thread, 'where does the blame lie?'
I think it's because they are interepreting it as blaming individuals, which wasn't necessarily how I read it.
The blame may be due to systems and policy, whether it's related to training regime, club discipline, the wrong pay differentials in the squad, signing too many loanees, not blooding our own youngsters early enough, inadequate scouting methods etc etc. It's not about Murray and Chapple blaming each other, is it?
The failures may well be systemic - and that's why we need a full and thorough enquiry into what's wrong at Charlton and how it can best be fixed. And the supporters should be involved at some level, via the fans forum. Why people are saying such an enquiry is only going to make matters worse baffles me, to be honest.
Why are people so sensitive about addressing the title of this thread, 'where does the blame lie?'
I think it's because they are interepreting it as blaming individuals, which wasn't necessarily how I read it.
........
I can't speak for others...but from my perspective the question of responsibility gets raised every 24 hours or so with the same points being made. That gets a bit dull after a while, more so when there's nothing new to say.
Look, we all know the financial situation, he will be our Manager next season. I'd personally rather have someone who knows what it takes to get out of Div 1, and I think players at that level will respond to him.
''the question of responsibility gets raised every 24 hours or so with the same points being made''
Exactly, BFR. It's being interpreted as the responsibility of specific individuals. My point is that it requires a far wider interpretation in which we examine our methods, systems and policies - not whether this individual or that made a bad call on one day or the other...
We're probably the only club in the top 2 divisions, where the Board involve the supporter to the degree that they do.
But some things, like in every business, need to be done behind closed doors.
And only a final announcement made public, when the timing has to be right.
I have a gut feeling that Richard Murray may decide to give Parkinson another season.
As I said in my original post Parkinson has a track record of 3 wins from 25 matches. Forget all of the mitigating factors such as loan players and injuries. The fact is that 3 wins from 25 matches are probably in the top 5 worst statistics of any football manager If Richard Murray decides to give him another season and he fails so abysmally again the club may well never recover. That is why as soon as our fate is confirmed long-term decisions need to be made. Some people are saying that they will not renew their season tickets until they know who is in charge, and that is why I say the club need to keep the supporters informed.
Let me give you an analogy. As some of you know, during the 1980s I was employed by the Labour Party and was Kinnocks press officer in the 1987 general election.
When we lost that election, the party's National Executive Committee set up a committee of enquiry - to which I gave evidence - which looked at every aspect of our defeat and how to put it ríght next time.
That included the question of Kinnock's leadership ( in the end he stayed). But it also included a thorough examination of policies, tactics, organisation on the ground, funding of the campaign and every other aspect you can possibly imagine.
The cttee sat and took evidence in private, but then communicated its broad findings to the party and the membershp and put an action plan into operation.
The result? Er, we lost again in 1992 and had to go through the entire porcess all over again!
Sadly, our 'management team' with our form now even worse than under Pardew's. We had a great opportunity of employing an even mildly capable manager after Pardew's dismissal only to have Parky and we are now cut adrift at the bottom. All other teams that appointed fresh blood, have a realistic chance of survival, we certainly don't.
[cite]Posted By: LargeAddick[/cite]Len Glover said'leaving Parky in a position whereby he could only sign has beens or loans which hardly gave him the best opportunity of stopping the rot.'
didn't stop Brendan Rodgers or Billy Davies though did it and they have signed nowhere near as many loanees/has been's as Parky has.
Bit unfair, Davies actually had money to spend (as did Nigel Clough), I am not so sure about Rogers but I think he had more dough than us - but that would not have been hard.
Regarding Dowie, he got VERY lucky with Palace when Andy Johnson basically got them up in his first season with 32 goals, nearly kept them up in the Premiership with 21 goals and then nearly got them back up again (and probably would have but for injury) with another 15 goals.
My boss, a longtime (very football savvy) Palace fan, told me that even when they were doing well he thought Dowie was a BS merchant and that he had no clue about tactics and was really a Mr. Motivator character - I am pretty sure he was right.
Dowie bombed with us and his Coventry days are better remembered for their Cup form rather than League form where he got sacked after they plummeted down to the relegation zone.
As for his time at QPR, well, he did OK there but then again he was well resourced compared to other teams in the division and 15 games in the Championship is not that long because the results fluctuate more than they do in the Premiership.
Nobody knows what would have happened if Dowie had stayed at Charlton, my hunch is that we would certainly have still gone down simply because of his dreadful record in the transfer market where his purchases such as Diawara, Faye, Walton, Pouso and Traore were disastrous and his sole decent buy Andy Reid was a renowned sicknote.
Nothing in his reign convinced me he was up to the task, the only two league wins were a pretty lucky 2-0 win over Bolton where they missed a penalty and a 1-0 win over perennial whipping boys Man City where they somehow failed to score against our porous defence.
The 3-2 loss at Wigan was the final straw simply because it exposed his "best defender you've never heard of" as an absolute clown of the highest order who could not defend the most routine long balls pumped straight at him.
I would still bloody love to hear from Minty or Reg the EXACT reasons for the sacking as they have always claimed it was not results related.
Perhaps some modern day fans should look at where we were and what we had between the 70's and up until the mid 90's. We were going nowhere, had no money. low crowds. no grounds, no youth development, and still played in the league one and two.
Football is like a tide, not just for us, but every club in the world, its not out time to ride the creast of a wave that brings us the good times, and the reality is it wont be here for atleeast another five years.
When it does arrive you do enjoy it alot more.
We as a club are in the same bracket as clubs such as
Coventry Sheff Wed Hull Stoke Burnley Derby Plus many more, all of which are capable of getting promotion, capable of having a cup run, as well as more than caable of getting knocked in the third round of the cup by a lower league team at home and getting relegated in consecutive seasons, its football, its part of being a fan.
It can also be read as Parkinson has a track record of 3 wins in 14 matches.
Or 3 defeats in 11.
Or 1 defeat in 6 matches.
Or undefeated in 4.
Statistics, eh? ...... you can make them mean anything you want.
Anyway, if you think Parky's hopeless and the team crap, what do you think of Colin W*nker's team down the road ....?
In their last 17 matches, they've won, erm .....3
Lost 10.
Points: 13
In fact, if you take the Charlton v Palace match as a threshold, we've played 2 less games:
Won, erm .... 3
Lost: 5
Points: 15
Which just goes to show statistics can be made to prove anything.
Includingduring the past 3 months, Charlton have proved they are a better team than Palace.
[cite]Posted By: Oggy Red[/cite]It can also be read as Parkinson has a track record of 3 wins in 14 matches.
Or 3 defeats in 11.
Or 1 defeat in 6 matches.
Or undefeated in 4.
Statistics, eh? ...... you can make them mean anything you want.
Anyway, if you think Parky's hopeless and the team crap, what do you think of Colin W*nker's team down the road ....?
In their last 17 matches, they've won, erm .....3
Lost 10.
Points: 13
In fact, if you take the Charlton v Palace match as a threshold, we've played 2 less games:
Won, erm .... 3
Lost: 5
Points: 15
Which just goes to show statistics can be made to prove anything.
Includingduring the past 3 months, Charlton haveprovedthey are a better team than Palace.
Comments
Any event that you seem to want would be hijacked by the media and turned into some very public humiliation - and then we'd surely be the laughing stock of the football world. BFR above has put it much more eloquently than I could.
Maybe you believe we're already a laughing stock - but in my experience talking to other club's supporters recently, they are simply puzzled and curious as to why Charlton has crashed and burned in the way we have, but generally there's no ridicule.
I've no doubt there's plenty going on behind the scenes currently. And that's where it should stay for now.
They'll come a time soon I'm sure, when perhaps through the Fans Forum, some discussion and Board self-analysis will be shared with the supporter base.
But I can't see what good it would do if it was to happen now.
Even Ooh Aah's thrown in his 2 penn'orth again that Curbs is god.
;o)
it's more exciting than reading about the top five guitar songs by some hippy or whatever ;-0
Although the bad ones were more entertaining.
I thought Murray had accepted responsibility, whilst also including Pardew in the mix.
The hanging analogy of course is wrong. the board should nominate one of its members to go onto the pitch after the game against Norwich to perform the ritual of Seppuku. This could even be voted on by members of Charlton Life, so that a fair choice could be made, not just the board member most disliked by his colleagues. seppuku
For all of the wonderful things that Richard Murray has done for Charlton, he is also responsible for Dowie, Reed, Pardew and Parky.
Trusting Dowie was the worst; trusting in Pardew a close second. Parky makes Les Reed look like Brian Clough (or at least Peter Taylor).
Murray is still held in high esteem, and no one wants to put it all on him. But hiring Dowie ...
My God. And then Coventry, then QPR, now Newcastle.
Temporary insanity seems to a common affliction amoung club chairmen the past few years!
During his time with Coventry & QPR - Dowie averaged 1.5 points per Championship game! A very respectable accomplishment & enough this season to be pushing for a play-off place.
He is statistically a significantly better Championship manager than our Parky.
exactly but we'll forget that and accept that 12 premiership games was long enough to judge him as our manager..... if he'd have stayed i don't even think he'd have got us to our present position cos his championship record is fairly good just like parkinsons third tier record !!
Spot on!
didn't stop Brendan Rodgers or Billy Davies though did it and they have signed nowhere near as many loanees/has been's as Parky has.
I'd rather judge him on what he has done so far rather than letting him have another bash and cock it up again.
I think it's because they are interepreting it as blaming individuals, which wasn't necessarily how I read it.
The blame may be due to systems and policy, whether it's related to training regime, club discipline, the wrong pay differentials in the squad, signing too many loanees, not blooding our own youngsters early enough, inadequate scouting methods etc etc. It's not about Murray and Chapple blaming each other, is it?
The failures may well be systemic - and that's why we need a full and thorough enquiry into what's wrong at Charlton and how it can best be fixed. And the supporters should be involved at some level, via the fans forum. Why people are saying such an enquiry is only going to make matters worse baffles me, to be honest.
I think it's because they are interepreting it as blaming individuals, which wasn't necessarily how I read it.
........
I can't speak for others...but from my perspective the question of responsibility gets raised every 24 hours or so with the same points being made. That gets a bit dull after a while, more so when there's nothing new to say.
Can't be bothered to re-read the same stuff thats all!
Exactly, BFR. It's being interpreted as the responsibility of specific individuals. My point is that it requires a far wider interpretation in which we examine our methods, systems and policies - not whether this individual or that made a bad call on one day or the other...
But some things, like in every business, need to be done behind closed doors.
And only a final announcement made public, when the timing has to be right.
As I said in my original post Parkinson has a track record of 3 wins from 25 matches. Forget all of the mitigating factors such as loan players and injuries. The fact is that 3 wins from 25 matches are probably in the top 5 worst statistics of any football manager If Richard Murray decides to give him another season and he fails so abysmally again the club may well never recover. That is why as soon as our fate is confirmed long-term decisions need to be made. Some people are saying that they will not renew their season tickets until they know who is in charge, and that is why I say the club need to keep the supporters informed.
When we lost that election, the party's National Executive Committee set up a committee of enquiry - to which I gave evidence - which looked at every aspect of our defeat and how to put it ríght next time.
That included the question of Kinnock's leadership ( in the end he stayed). But it also included a thorough examination of policies, tactics, organisation on the ground, funding of the campaign and every other aspect you can possibly imagine.
The cttee sat and took evidence in private, but then communicated its broad findings to the party and the membershp and put an action plan into operation.
The result? Er, we lost again in 1992 and had to go through the entire porcess all over again!
So please ignore that final sentence !
Bit unfair, Davies actually had money to spend (as did Nigel Clough), I am not so sure about Rogers but I think he had more dough than us - but that would not have been hard.
Regarding Dowie, he got VERY lucky with Palace when Andy Johnson basically got them up in his first season with 32 goals, nearly kept them up in the Premiership with 21 goals and then nearly got them back up again (and probably would have but for injury) with another 15 goals.
My boss, a longtime (very football savvy) Palace fan, told me that even when they were doing well he thought Dowie was a BS merchant and that he had no clue about tactics and was really a Mr. Motivator character - I am pretty sure he was right.
Dowie bombed with us and his Coventry days are better remembered for their Cup form rather than League form where he got sacked after they plummeted down to the relegation zone.
As for his time at QPR, well, he did OK there but then again he was well resourced compared to other teams in the division and 15 games in the Championship is not that long because the results fluctuate more than they do in the Premiership.
Nobody knows what would have happened if Dowie had stayed at Charlton, my hunch is that we would certainly have still gone down simply because of his dreadful record in the transfer market where his purchases such as Diawara, Faye, Walton, Pouso and Traore were disastrous and his sole decent buy Andy Reid was a renowned sicknote.
Nothing in his reign convinced me he was up to the task, the only two league wins were a pretty lucky 2-0 win over Bolton where they missed a penalty and a 1-0 win over perennial whipping boys Man City where they somehow failed to score against our porous defence.
The 3-2 loss at Wigan was the final straw simply because it exposed his "best defender you've never heard of" as an absolute clown of the highest order who could not defend the most routine long balls pumped straight at him.
I would still bloody love to hear from Minty or Reg the EXACT reasons for the sacking as they have always claimed it was not results related.
Football is like a tide, not just for us, but every club in the world, its not out time to ride the creast of a wave that brings us the good times, and the reality is it wont be here for atleeast another five years.
When it does arrive you do enjoy it alot more.
We as a club are in the same bracket as clubs such as
Coventry
Sheff Wed
Hull
Stoke
Burnley
Derby
Plus many more, all of which are capable of getting promotion, capable of having a cup run, as well as more than caable of getting knocked in the third round of the cup by a lower league team at home and getting relegated in consecutive seasons, its football, its part of being a fan.
Or 3 defeats in 11.
Or 1 defeat in 6 matches.
Or undefeated in 4.
Statistics, eh? ...... you can make them mean anything you want.
Anyway, if you think Parky's hopeless and the team crap, what do you think of Colin W*nker's team down the road ....?
In their last 17 matches, they've won, erm .....3
Lost 10.
Points: 13
In fact, if you take the Charlton v Palace match as a threshold, we've played 2 less games:
Won, erm .... 3
Lost: 5
Points: 15
Which just goes to show statistics can be made to prove anything.
Includingduring the past 3 months, Charlton have proved they are a better team than Palace.
Oh, of course, we beat Palace too, lol
;o)
True, but have a look at the league table...