Burton will score no more trhan 5 goals in a full season in League 1....not only is this a FACT but i would also be prepared to put money on it. He is gash.
[cite]Posted By: valleyman[/cite]Burton will score no more trhan 5 goals in a full season in League 1....not only is this a FACT but i would also be prepared to put money on it. He is gash.
[quote][cite]Posted By: Oggy Red[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: valleyman[/cite]Burton will score no more trhan 5 goals in a full season in League 1....not only is this a FACT but i would also be prepared to put money on it. He is gash.[/quote]
It's not a FACT at all mate, just your opinion.
Because you don't know.
;o)[/quote]
True, hands up on that one...however if he gets more than 5 next year I will raise this quote of mine back to the top of the message board and then eat my own hat (which fortunately is made from cake anyway!)
[cite]Posted By: valleyman[/cite]Burton will score no more trhan 5 goals in a full season in League 1....not only is this a FACT but i would also be prepared to put money on it. He is gash.
It's not a FACT at all mate, just your opinion.
Because you don't know.
;o)
True, hands up on that one...however if he gets more than 5 next year I will raise this quote of mine back to the top of the message board and then eat my own hat (which fortunately is made from cake anyway!)
One of the worrying aspects of this scarcity of decent strikers is shown up in the other thread concerning the teams of 'Charlton Youth'. Whilst there are any number of choices of those who have made it through the ranks for the defence and midfield there are only 4 names chosen for the forwards, I.e Leaburn,Walsh, Watson and Williams. Three of these made it under Lennie all within 2 to 3 years of each other with Walsh being 10 years earlier. Considering that the teams suggested go back some 45-50 years (Bailey and Bonds are included in some) isn't it odd that no other forwards have made the grade well enough in that time? Admittedly there are some good home grown wingers/midfielders listed who were often played up front as required but we're talking about out and out strikers so isn't it time we produced some? ( Hope you can follow all that: I'm on the 2nd. bottle of Tesco's Bank Holiday Special Vino Collapso so am a bit vague!).
Aha, I wondered if the South African connection might crop up! I must admit I don't know at what level he and Leary played in S.A so have not included them in my thinking but do so if you wish Oggy and that'll take us to 55 years! Then we'll get to my first game and Hans Jeppson, who joined us as an amateur in '51. There was also Fred Lucas who played inside forward in the mid '50s to early '60s, signed from Slade Green Athletic , a team my dad played for before the war, so that takes us to nine in 58 years, not a lot is it considering how much time and money the club must have invested in young forwards over such a length of time.
One of the worrying aspects of this scarcity of decent strikers is shown up in the other thread concerning the teams of 'Charlton Youth'. Whilst there are any number of choices of those who have made it through the ranks for the defence and midfield there are only 4 names chosen for the forwards, I.e Leaburn,Walsh, Watson and Williams. Three of these made it under Lennie all within 2 to 3 years of each other with Walsh being 10 years earlier. Considering that the teams suggested go back some 45-50 years (Bailey and Bonds are included in some) isn't it odd that no other forwards have made the grade well enough in that time? Admittedly there are some good home grown wingers/midfielders listed who were often played up front as required but we're talking about out and out strikers so isn't it time we produced some? ( Hope you can follow all that: I'm on the 2nd. bottle of Tesco's Bank Holiday Special Vino Collapso so am a bit vague!).
I noticed that, see my 'Something I realised on Saturday' thread. Not had a striker even make his debut (nevermind become a regular) from the youth team since Charlie MacDonald, and Lisbie before that. That's two debuts in nearly 15 years. Each year of youth players must have at least 1 or 2 strikers, pretty poor to think only 1 in all that time did anything, and even then Lisbie never scored regularly.
Find a striker that can get you 25-30 goals and you're sorted.
In a good team, that player will guatantee the play-offs. (See Hooper/Scunthorpe, Beckford/Leeds, Fryatt/Leicester, Mackail-Smith/Peterboro). We've lost to all those team this year, but not been outplayed. Infact, been the better team at times. The difference was that they had one or two chances that player wasn't going to miss. Whereas we had Kandol(!)
In a crap team, he'll make sure you won't go down (See Lambert/Bristol Rovers, Cox/Swindon, Porter/Hartlepool).
Dickinson scored loads for Gills at that level. Surely he's your banker?
Jermaine Defoe was a pretty good product of the Charlton youth system, just not with us unfortunately. Likewise Ucechi was showing great promise but has been poached.
[cite]Posted By: Groucho78MFC[/cite]Dickinson scored loads for Gills at that level. Surely he's your banker?
He can get a few, but not sure about 20+. We'll just have to hope he can.
[cite]Posted By: Exiled_Addick[/cite]Jermaine Defoe was a pretty good product of the Charlton youth system, just not with us unfortunately. Likewise Ucechi was showing great promise but has been poached.
Uchechi is a decent player, but nothing like Defoe. I can't see him being as good a player as Defoe and other similar level players like Bent, Johnson, Agbonlahor etc.
Wasn't really compairing the two directly Sco, but Uchechi surely has the potential to be as good as say Leaburn or Lisbie? If he does then he warrants mention as a potential first team striker that has been 'pinched' from our academy before we got any real benefit from him.
Just saying that we've probably 'produced', or at least played a major role in producing, more than the 9 or 10 strikers March lists, it's just some may have been nabbed by larger clubs before they made our first team. This, of course, is probably also true of defenders and midfielders, also, so doesn't really alter the main thrust of the argument that we produce relatively few strikers.
Yes mate, I was really only using those listed in the other thread: homegrown players who made the grade with us and weren't flogged or nabbed as soon as they did. Watson, MacDonald,and Halom are three of those that made it to the first team but whose talent has mainly benefited other teams (there are many others, I'm sure) rather than than us.
And then there was young centre forward Paul Gilchrist who made his debut for us, hung around the fringes of our 1st team for a couple of years.
Last heard of playing main striker for Southampton in their 1976 Wembley Cup Final win over Man Utd.
I guess we don't really get 1st choice at the schoolboy striking talent.
Although I can't see any mention of Robert Lee and Mark Stuart (famous for his winning goal at Old Trafford, which got Ron Atkinson the sack).
On the other hand, we've done pretty well over the years raiding other peoples reserve teams for mainly young unfancied striking talent: Ray Treacy, Mike Flanagan, Derek Hales, Martin Robinson, Jimmy Melrose, Garth Crooks, Deon Burton, etc
I've always felt it's virtually impossible to pick out and coach youngsters into being a successful first team striker. Just look at Lisbie, outside of the first team he appeared to have wonderful talent. Straight away in the first team from around the 97-98 season it was obvious that his ability to score was inconsistent and something he himself had little control over; he was another striker who when the pressure told always took another touch, rarely looked up and rarely took a clean shot. Kim Grant was another, had everything to be a champ striker apart from presence and directness. Lisbie, Varney and Grant all suffered from this irregardless of whether they had more pace than their opposite number any pressure on them would result in them running an indirect angle to goal.
It's like Billy Beane says in baseball a school leaver pitcher is a complete waste of resources, on account of the statistical likelihood of him making it in the majors. Of course if you have a Michael Owen or Rooney then they are worth it.
I've often thought that resources should be placed towards developing defenders and midfielders. These players have more time to develop, and character and temprement is more easily defined and observed. Big money at small clubs should not be spent on full backs. A mixture of wages and budget should go on strikers in the Warnock way of a bag of proven strikers. And in the case of Andy Gray when someone offers you money for a quite good forward you take it.
Personally I'm at a loss as to what strikers will do for us in the third tier. Kandol and Dickson would be good enough. But someone still needs to address who supplies. Sam can do it especially if Parkinson would insist he takes the early cross. Bailey, Spring, Shelvey and Racon are all capable of assists but we still need a bit more width/pace. As much as we have improved and the introduction of Zheng and Kandol has made 4-5-1 possible, every time Dickson comes on his pace and directness creates chances often inadvertently but some of the only chances in the box. Without Dickson's presence and unpredictability we face the same problems again in a lower div, one where our approach will be slow and easily defende against.
There's plenty of skilful players playing at senior non-professional level - but the main difference between good amateur status and professional footballer ..... is concentration and strong mentality.
Once you go up the Leagues, it becomes even more marked.
The Kim Grants, Carl Leaburns and Kevin Lisbies of this world, all had/have sufficient footballing ability to make their mark - but rarely could any one of them could be ruthless in front of goal.
Lisbie, for example, was no doubt a worldbeater in training, and we were all amazed at his hat-trick performance against Liverpool.
Concentration and confidence was what he lacked - and fear of failure he had in abundance. It was all mental for him, all in his head - but the difference was, when he didn't have to think about it, he just did it instinctively.
Perhaps you can coach mental strength, I don't know.
Compare to the clinical strikers, they are not afraid to miss - so what, there'll be another chance, and another after that.
They'll score enough goals just by the law of averages and being in the right place at the right time.
But can you teach that ? I don't know.
Charlton have had plenty of young skilful forwards over the years - but few have made the breakthrough.
Why? Because they never developed the mental strength, never learned that clinical, ruthless, selfish streak.
Charlton have had plenty of young skilful forwards over the years - but few have made the breakthrough.
Why? Because they never developed the mental strength, never learned that clinical, ruthless, selfish streak.
..........
Defoe had a ruthless, selfish streak, and so did his mother.
[cite]Posted By: March51[/cite]Good post Oggy, the key word being 'instinctively', it just can't be taught or coached. Was Superclive our last truly instinctive striker?
i'd like to think darren bent was pretty instinctive
[cite]Posted By: March51[/cite]Good post Oggy, the key word being 'instinctively', it just can't be taught or coached. Was Superclive our last truly instinctive striker?
It is, indeed, all in the mind and those that don't go missing when they've missed a chance or two still end up being prolific goalscorers. Interestingly though some of the world's most "instinctive" strikers are the worst Penalty takers e.g. Michael Owen. Perhaps because they do have to think about where they're going to put the ball AND what the Keeper might do.
Comments
It's not a FACT at all mate, just your opinion.
Because you don't know.
;o)
It's not a FACT at all mate, just your opinion.
Because you don't know.
;o)[/quote]
True, hands up on that one...however if he gets more than 5 next year I will raise this quote of mine back to the top of the message board and then eat my own hat (which fortunately is made from cake anyway!)
Ha ha ....... good reply!
;o)
;o)
compared to our current strikers Lisbie is a fecking superstar !!
There was also Fred Lucas who played inside forward in the mid '50s to early '60s, signed from Slade Green Athletic , a team my dad played for before the war, so that takes us to nine in 58 years, not a lot is it considering how much time and money the club must have invested in young forwards over such a length of time.
I noticed that, see my 'Something I realised on Saturday' thread. Not had a striker even make his debut (nevermind become a regular) from the youth team since Charlie MacDonald, and Lisbie before that. That's two debuts in nearly 15 years. Each year of youth players must have at least 1 or 2 strikers, pretty poor to think only 1 in all that time did anything, and even then Lisbie never scored regularly.
In a good team, that player will guatantee the play-offs. (See Hooper/Scunthorpe, Beckford/Leeds, Fryatt/Leicester, Mackail-Smith/Peterboro). We've lost to all those team this year, but not been outplayed. Infact, been the better team at times. The difference was that they had one or two chances that player wasn't going to miss. Whereas we had Kandol(!)
In a crap team, he'll make sure you won't go down (See Lambert/Bristol Rovers, Cox/Swindon, Porter/Hartlepool).
Dickinson scored loads for Gills at that level. Surely he's your banker?
He can get a few, but not sure about 20+. We'll just have to hope he can.
Uchechi is a decent player, but nothing like Defoe. I can't see him being as good a player as Defoe and other similar level players like Bent, Johnson, Agbonlahor etc.
Just saying that we've probably 'produced', or at least played a major role in producing, more than the 9 or 10 strikers March lists, it's just some may have been nabbed by larger clubs before they made our first team. This, of course, is probably also true of defenders and midfielders, also, so doesn't really alter the main thrust of the argument that we produce relatively few strikers.
I wish we could have seen this current midfield 5 with Iwelumo. Dont think that would have been viewed as defensive.
And he dispensed with Chrissy Powell and we know how that one is playing out too now.
Sorry bit off topic.
Last heard of playing main striker for Southampton in their 1976 Wembley Cup Final win over Man Utd.
I guess we don't really get 1st choice at the schoolboy striking talent.
Although I can't see any mention of Robert Lee and Mark Stuart (famous for his winning goal at Old Trafford, which got Ron Atkinson the sack).
On the other hand, we've done pretty well over the years raiding other peoples reserve teams for mainly young unfancied striking talent: Ray Treacy, Mike Flanagan, Derek Hales, Martin Robinson, Jimmy Melrose, Garth Crooks, Deon Burton, etc
;o)
It's like Billy Beane says in baseball a school leaver pitcher is a complete waste of resources, on account of the statistical likelihood of him making it in the majors. Of course if you have a Michael Owen or Rooney then they are worth it.
I've often thought that resources should be placed towards developing defenders and midfielders. These players have more time to develop, and character and temprement is more easily defined and observed. Big money at small clubs should not be spent on full backs. A mixture of wages and budget should go on strikers in the Warnock way of a bag of proven strikers. And in the case of Andy Gray when someone offers you money for a quite good forward you take it.
Personally I'm at a loss as to what strikers will do for us in the third tier. Kandol and Dickson would be good enough. But someone still needs to address who supplies. Sam can do it especially if Parkinson would insist he takes the early cross. Bailey, Spring, Shelvey and Racon are all capable of assists but we still need a bit more width/pace. As much as we have improved and the introduction of Zheng and Kandol has made 4-5-1 possible, every time Dickson comes on his pace and directness creates chances often inadvertently but some of the only chances in the box. Without Dickson's presence and unpredictability we face the same problems again in a lower div, one where our approach will be slow and easily defende against.
Once you go up the Leagues, it becomes even more marked.
The Kim Grants, Carl Leaburns and Kevin Lisbies of this world, all had/have sufficient footballing ability to make their mark - but rarely could any one of them could be ruthless in front of goal.
Lisbie, for example, was no doubt a worldbeater in training, and we were all amazed at his hat-trick performance against Liverpool.
Concentration and confidence was what he lacked - and fear of failure he had in abundance. It was all mental for him, all in his head - but the difference was, when he didn't have to think about it, he just did it instinctively.
Perhaps you can coach mental strength, I don't know.
Compare to the clinical strikers, they are not afraid to miss - so what, there'll be another chance, and another after that.
They'll score enough goals just by the law of averages and being in the right place at the right time.
But can you teach that ? I don't know.
Charlton have had plenty of young skilful forwards over the years - but few have made the breakthrough.
Why? Because they never developed the mental strength, never learned that clinical, ruthless, selfish streak.
Why? Because they never developed the mental strength, never learned that clinical, ruthless, selfish streak.
..........
Defoe had a ruthless, selfish streak, and so did his mother.
i'd like to think darren bent was pretty instinctive
It is, indeed, all in the mind and those that don't go missing when they've missed a chance or two still end up being prolific goalscorers. Interestingly though some of the world's most "instinctive" strikers are the worst Penalty takers e.g. Michael Owen. Perhaps because they do have to think about where they're going to put the ball AND what the Keeper might do.