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Who's in better shape?

edited March 2009 in General Charlton
Charlton have had a disaster of a season; a car-crash, played out over nine months. Big debts; big losses; a squad full of other club's players. But Charlton own their stadium (the biggest in South London); own their training ground; have the biggest attendances in South London; and have a youth team and reserve squad full of promising prospects.

Crystal Palace have (almost certainly) secured tier-two football for next season. But their ground is a disgrace and not even theirs; their venerable manager is nearing retirement; the club is up for sale and hasn't attracted a sniff.

Who's in better shape?
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Comments

  • That's a bit like two eunuchs arguing about who's got the biggest piece!
  • At the moment, them.

    No shame in admitting. They will be a league higher than us next year, and that's pretty much the end of it.

    Long-term however, it may well be us. But we shall have to wait and see.
  • Yes, I know we've got a lot more assets, but a lovely stadium and training facilities seem little consulation when you are heading for league one.
  • Don't really give a shite if we r in a lower division than the scum. Lets face it at least we play in a decent ground, have a good youth set up and with a bit of patience it may not be too long before we are back in the CC. So what if Palarse take the piss out of us for bussing fans in, having shite support and a club with no rivals because TBH at least I am supporting a club that has a future, some may argue. We bring 20,000 most games and we r bottom of the bloody league, they r scrapping 12 k at mid table. Even IF we go down we will still bring more then them at home, I reckon in a few years they will be in L1 and I will be ready to spit on them when they do come down. Financially they are not much better off than us, and the fact that they don't own Selhurst puts them in a worse situation, who's gonna want to buy that shitehole when Jordan sells up. You wait in a few years our places will have reversed, I guarentee!!!
  • SE7, I am not doubting there are 20k paid seats at most of your home games this season, but do you honestly believe there are 20,000 bums on seats at those games?

    As a matter of interest, does anyone have any info on the amount of season tickets sold for next season so far.

    Honest question, not looking for point scoring, I've no idea what Palaces position is, but I'd guess it's similar to this seasons.
  • I think we need to be confirmed as relegated before Season tickets start going on sale .

    Even if it's not 20k bums, it's still a hell of a lot more than you'll ever have so not quite sure what your point is?
  • [cite]Posted By: L Block JT[/cite]I think we need to be confirmed as relegated before Season tickets start going on sale .

    Even if it's not 20k bums, it's still a hell of a lot more than you'll ever have so not quite sure what your point is?

    I think thats very optimistic, if you think you'll still be getting 'a hell of a lot more' than Palace, and if you do then I salute a very loyal support.
  • didn't realise our youth set up was that good ...
    palace have integrated more youth into their first team and appear to be in a better footballing position than us where youth players are concerned and any players come to think of it!
  • [cite]Posted By: oohaahmortimer[/cite]didn't realise our youth set up was that good ...
    You wouldn't.
  • [cite]Posted By: budgie[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: L Block JT[/cite]I think we need to be confirmed as relegated before Season tickets start going on sale .

    Even if it's not 20k bums, it's still a hell of a lot more than you'll ever have so not quite sure what your point is?

    I think thats very optimistic, if you think you'll still be getting 'a hell of a lot more' than Palace, and if you do then I salute a very loyal support.

    I look forward to still having higher attendances than you next season in a lower division.
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  • [cite]Posted By: LoOkOuT[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: oohaahmortimer[/cite]didn't realise our youth set up was that good ...
    You wouldn't.

    tell me why it is so good then oh wise one...
    maybe our league position is the give away to me
    take jonjo out of the equation and there isn't any championship quality youth players left imo and there haven't been any for a few years now and as someone who has invested in valley gold since the beginning i take a key interest in what comes through our ranks...
  • [cite]Posted By: L Block JT[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: budgie[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: L Block JT[/cite]I think we need to be confirmed as relegated before Season tickets start going on sale .

    Even if it's not 20k bums, it's still a hell of a lot more than you'll ever have so not quite sure what your point is?

    I think thats very optimistic, if you think you'll still be getting 'a hell of a lot more' than Palace, and if you do then I salute a very loyal support.

    I look forward to still having higher attendances than you next season in a lower division.

    If you do, it will take very good marketing.

    Maybe something along the lines of free season tickets, the following year if you go straight back up.
  • I think I'd rather be in our shoes than yours despite our impending relegation.

    I think you will have as much difficulty as us in keeping your decent players and with our own ground, training ground and proximity to the Thames Gateway we are the better long term prospect.

    Yes your average home attendances may (for once!) exceed ours next season.
  • [cite]Posted By: oohaahmortimer[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: LoOkOuT[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: oohaahmortimer[/cite]didn't realise our youth set up was that good ...
    You wouldn't.

    tell me why it is so good then oh wise one...
    maybe our league position is the give away to me
    take jonjo out of the equation and there isn't any championship quality youth players left imo and there haven't been any for a few years now and as someone who has invested in valley gold since the beginning i take a key interest in what comes through our ranks...

    On average a Prem/Champinship squad has about 30 players. Of these about two thirds will have either come from abroad or from the lower divisions. Therefore at any time any Prem/Champ youth system should have 10 graduates playing in squads in the Prem or Championship. Less than 10 and the youth system is doing poorly 10 to 15 the system is doing well, more than 15 and the system is doing very well/Excellent.

    Off the top of my head the Charlton graduates in squads at the moment are

    Defenders

    Konch
    Fortune
    Turner
    Shittu
    Bassey
    Primus
    Samual

    Midfield

    Parker
    Bowyer
    Cambell-Rice
    Sam
    Shelvey
    Wright
    Wagstaff

    Forwards

    Defoe
    Lisbie

    Goalkeepers

    Brown
    Elliot
    Randolf


    Thats 19 I can think of, there may be more.
    With the influx of forign players into our leagues to have 19 ex Charlton youth still plying there trade in the top 2 divisions is an exceptional achievment. There will probably be 5 or 6 other youth systems who can match that but no more.
  • edited March 2009
    There are more

    Goalkeepers

    Paul Smith (Forest)

    Defenders

    Simon Ford (Kilmarnock)
    Osei Sankofa (Southend)
    Barry Fuller (Gillingham)
    Nathan Ashton (Wycombe)

    Midfielders

    Kemi Izzet (Colchester)
    Myles Weston (Notts Co)

    Strikers

    Charlie MacDonald (Brentford)
    James Walker (Southend)
    Danny Haynes (Ipswich)
    George Boyd (Peterborough)

    I know they aren't all Championship players, but some of them potentially are with a lot more experience, much like Shittu and Turner.

    Add to that a few in the Conference like Stacy Long and Onome Sodje, who might get back in the Football League like Barry Fuller, there's more players throughout the Prem down to League Two from our youth system than the obvious ones.

    We've had to use the youth players more over the last 2 seasons in this league, and we'll have to carry on in League One. If he stays we'll see more of Josh Wright, and Solly will eventually get his chance.

    Players like Mambo will benefit from us being in League One rather than the Prem. Shittu, Turner and Campbell-Ryce would have all broken through if they we were a Championship or League One club at the time.
  • Oh and if you include Wagstaff, Yussuff and Arter can be added to that list. Also had Jack Clark and Aswad Thomas on the bench in the past, and as I said, Solly can't be far away.
  • [cite]Posted By: oohaahmortimer[/cite]tell me why it is so good then oh wise one...
    maybe our league position is the give away to me
    take jonjo out of the equation and there isn't any championship quality youth players left imo and there haven't been any for a few years now and as someone who has invested in valley gold since the beginning i take a key interest in what comes through our ranks...

    Well I think others above have answered your question better than I could have. However, my point was that you wouldn't see our youth setup as any good even if we had graduated Kaka and Messi.
  • i agree with morts look at the players Palace have brought through compared to ours and I think they have the better set up.
  • who have they brought through then.

    from memory

    Bostock
    Moses
    erm
    erm

    struggling now name some more
  • This season
    Clyne
    Scannell
    Hills
    Dijali
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  • soares,watson
  • [cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite]I think I'd rather be in our shoes than yours despite our impending relegation.

    I think you will have as much difficulty as us in keeping your decent players and with our own ground, training ground and proximity to the Thames Gateway we are the better long term prospect.

    Yes your average home attendances may (for once!) exceed ours next season.

    To some extent I'd agree, Palace's future is definately unclear at the moment.

    Jordan wants out, and there are rumours starting to appear, that he has found a buyer, once that becomes certain, and we find out who it is, we can then start to get a clearer picture of the future.
  • Defenders

    Konch .... according to wiki he came thru west ham's set up b4 joining our youth lot late
    Fortune.... charlton thru and thru
    Turner.... came through ours but we didn't rate him and he had to leave to improve
    Shittu... did he represent our first team and did we receive any fee , he had to leave to improve
    Bassey... what league will he be playing in next year and imo not good enough for tier 2
    Primus... another one who didn't improve till he left
    Samual..... yep slipped through our net unfortunatley

    Midfield

    Parker..... a major success
    Bowyer..... a major success
    Cambell-Rice..... had to leave and has improved a lot since leaving but a second tier player
    Sam...... see basey
    Shelvey..... a succcess but wont be with us next year
    Wright.... see basey
    Wagstaff.... see basey

    Forwards

    Defoe..... success but we wuz robbed
    Lisbie......tier two

    Goalkeepers

    Brown....not sure who he iis did he ever play for the first team, did we receive a transfer fee or not rate him
    Elliot.... see basey
    Randolf.... see basey...

    what i'm really saying is at a time when we needed to have a crop of youngsters good enough to come in and do the business i don't think they have been here for us and our current plight has more to do with bad management than the youth set up but the quality of player coming thru clearly can't be good enough cos we are where we are and only jonjo out of any one u-21 at the club imo will ply their next ten years of football in the top two tiers
  • yeah coming up with loads of names there boys - blowing me away with their qualtiy.

    lol
  • As this is a fairly pointless debate I thought I would add my own contribution.

    "Erse"
  • [cite]Posted By: budgie[/cite]SE7, I am not doubting there are 20k paid seats at most of your home games this season, but do you honestly believe there are 20,000 bums on seats at those games?

    As a matter of interest, does anyone have any info on the amount of season tickets sold for next season so far.

    None. They haven't been announced yet.

    No, i don't believe there are 20k bums on seat at every game. At our lowest, one actual ttendance dipped below 14k for a midweek game.

    I also understand that the 'actual attendance' for you recent game with Birmingham was 8,400.
  • I really dont see why we cant have declared the actual attendance at games.

    The season ticket plus roll up sales is a meaningless figure in my mind purely there for accountants.
  • This thread is the personification of bitterness!

    We're in a very bad position, lets deal with that rather than worry if Palace are in an even worse one.
  • It's in the trees.......................it's coming.
  • [cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: budgie[/cite]SE7, I am not doubting there are 20k paid seats at most of your home games this season, but do you honestly believe there are 20,000 bums on seats at those games?

    As a matter of interest, does anyone have any info on the amount of season tickets sold for next season so far.

    None. They haven't been announced yet.

    No, i don't believe there are 20k bums on seat at every game. At our lowest, one actual ttendance dipped below 14k for a midweek game.

    I also understand that the 'actual attendance' for you recent game with Birmingham was 8,400.

    I've no idea what the official attendances for Palace are, but I must admit I'd be shocked the Brum attendance was that low, I was there and while I admit it was poor, I'd have thought it was higher than that, however the weather was disgusting that night, and the lure of Champions League on telly convinced many to stay in. I know I wished I had missed it.

    If your attendances are holding up that well though, it shouldn't impact too much for you next year.
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