[cite]Posted By: Nadou[/cite]Not playing Shelvey must make him think that he could equally well be not playing at a bigger club and for a bigger wage, surrounded by high profile players who could teach him a lot.
[cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite]No, we should over play him, heap lots of pressure on his shoulders and when he breaks down and misses most of next season and doesn't fulfil his potential then we can then blame Parky for overplaying him in a losing cause.
We had a young player a few years ago, we were in the top flight, but had little money so he became a first team player early, as a forward he was battered and bruised by big hairy a*sed central defenders and never really lived up to his potential, although occaisionally he showed glimpses of what he could do. He bacame a cult figure and some people wore a t-shirt celebrating seeing a goal by him or his one and only hat trick for us. But if he had not been our main striker, if he had not been over played at a young age, if he had been nurtured then maybe just maybe he would have become a legend because of his goal scoring prowess, not despite it. He was of course carl leaburn.
Not just the most effective 16, but almost the most effective 16 for that given match. Of course, any Liverpool fan would tell you that sometimes you need to engage in rotation as well, and we certainly seem to have a tonne of players in midfield, albeit a number on loan.
Leaburn would never have become a goalscoring legend. He eventually became a good all-round player and maybe that development was hindered by playing too much too early but if you think he would have ever scored 20 goals a season, I couldn't agree with you myself
Watch those old 'best of season' vids from the late 80s and you will see Leaburn was bloody superb making goals for Crooks, Paul Williams etc - not that he got much credit for it. I remember me and my two sons voiting for him as Player of the Season one year - everybody thought we did it to be 'ironic' but it was for real.
He wasn't a prolific goalscorer (unless you compare him to Deon Burton) but he was an absolutely totally invalubale member of the team (who funnily enough I think played some of his best football when we were playing ''home'' games at Upton Park). So no, I don't accept what Kap says at all.
Wasn't Mickey Bennett the young player who never fulfilled his potential because he got battered and bruised, rather than Carlo?
Leaburn was more than big and bad enough to look after himself - as anyone who recalls his reaction when he got knocked out at Stamford Bridge will testify !
Wasn't Mickey Bennett the young player who never fulfilled his potential because he got battered and bruised, rather than Carlo?
.......
He got injured against QPR the week after we won the Guinness Soccer Six thing...he was out the game for a year and just after he returned an offer came in from Wimbledon for about £250k and the club took it.
We've gone way off the topic of Jonjo, but I was genuinely excited when we had Leaburn, Bennett, Mortimer and Paul Williams all coming through at the same time...black players were not exactly a rarity in the 1980s but they were nowhere near as numerous as now and it really seemed quite something to have all four of them emerging simultaneously...
Lennie Lawrence has said more than once that he regrets playing Leaburn so much when he was so young, as it badly affected his development as a player. The analogy with JonJo is a very good one IMHO.
[cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite]Yep, out of adversity we had the making of a decent team around then - Johhnie H and Rob Lee, Shirtliff, Bolder etc.
No doubt in my mind that that team was the best I've ever seen in nearly 35 years watching. A team of home grown kids and reserves from some of the bigger clubs but worked so hard for the team and not without flare and talent either. I'd swap most of our our current lot for 'em today even if they are 50!
On Tuesday night after the Reading game I asked in this thread:
"Has Parky decided there is no room for ZZ and JonJo in the same squad - or is it just coincidence that the return of one has synchronised with the absence of the other?"
Well now Parky has given us the answer. Here's his reason given to the Bexley Times for dropping Jonjo:
"To put Jonjo on the bench, as well as Zizi, would be almost a case of replication - with two players who do similar roles."
Does anybody else buy the idea that we cannot play ZZ and Jonjo together? It seems nonsense to me but others may take a different view...
ps - further thought on edit : if Parkinson genuinely believes this and ZZ stays fit, then it seems we are going to see very little , if anything, of Jonjo over the rest of this season!
So he is saying that the club rock bottom of the second tier can't have its two best players (and prob. the only ones in the current squad who wouldn't look out of place in the Prem) in the same squad let alone team?
The bloke is utterly barmy - GET RID ASAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Leaburn was more than big and bad enough to look after himself - as anyone who recalls his reaction when he got knocked out at Stamford Bridge will testify !
What was this? I'm intrigued.
Parky doesn't think Jonjo's physically ready to play centrally in a flat midfield, so plays him off the striker. Problem being this formation doesn't seem to suit us too well with the attacking options we have. Jonjo said he knows he needs to get in the gym and build his strength, so hopefully after a chance to do this in pre-season he'll be ready to play in a straight 4-4-2 next year (when it really matters).
Parky is doing what he thinks is right by Jonjo, in the long term. I'm glad about that too.
In answer to your question, BBClaus, Leaburn gor knocked unconscious (I think by Clarke) v Chelsea in May 88. Really tense match - we got a point to stay up and pushed Chelsea into the play-offs; they eventually went down.
Anyway, when Leaburn came round, he jumped up and wanted to take on anybody and everybody wearing a blue shirt. I think he'd have happily fought all 11 of them at the same time , and had to be restrained by his Charlton team mates.
Another interesting point about that match was that the Chelsea side contained three future Charlton players in Pates, McLaughlinn and Bumstead.
Re your point that Parky ''doesn't think Jonjo's physically ready to play centrally in a flat midfield'', I'm not sure that's true and it's not what Parkinson himself is saying.
He says that Jonjo and ZZ ''replicate'' each other. As ZZ can certainly play central midfield, that must surely mean he thinks Jonjo can, too ?
Loved the Gerrard/Lampard analogy, WSS. And great response from Kinveachy !
[cite]Posted By: nigel w[/cite]In answer to your question, BBClaus, Leaburn gor knocked unconscious (I think by Clarke) v Chelsea in May 88. Really tense match - we got a point to stay up and pushed Chelsea into the play-offs; they eventually went down.
Anyway, when Leaburn came round, he jumped up and wanted to take on anybody and everybody wearing a blue shirt. I think he'd have happily fought all 11 of them at the same time , and had to be restrained by his Charlton team mates.
Another interesting point about that match was that the Chelsea side contained three future Charlton players in Pates, McLaughlinn and Bumstead.
Re your point that Parky ''doesn't think Jonjo's physically ready to play centrally in a flat midfield'', I'm not sure that's true and it's not what Parkinson himself is saying.
He says that Jonjo and ZZ ''replicate'' each other. As ZZ can certainly play central midfield, that must surely mean he thinks Jonjo can, too ?
Loved the Gerrard/Lampard analogy, WSS. And great response from Kinveachy !
And we smashed them up & down the Fulham Road and in their benches area. LOL
[cite]Posted By: nigel w[/cite]
Re your point that Parky ''doesn't think Jonjo's physically ready to play centrally in a flat midfield'', I'm not sure that's true and it's not what Parkinson himself is saying.
He says that Jonjo and ZZ ''replicate'' each other. As ZZ can certainly play central midfield, that must surely mean he thinks Jonjo can, too ?
That's what he said this time, but when jonjo signed he said "Phil Parkinson has told me he mainly sees me in a 4-4-1-1 formation for the time being. I agree with that, and it allows me to be more attacking-minded. I can play in a 4-4-2 - I just need to get in the gym and do some power exercises".
That's why i hope he'll be able to do it after a good pre-season. It'll make Jonjo easier to accomodate in the team.
[cite]Posted By: nigel w[/cite]In answer to your question, BBClaus, Leaburn gor knocked unconscious (I think by Clarke) v Chelsea in May 88. Really tense match - we got a point to stay up and pushed Chelsea into the play-offs; they eventually went down.
Anyway, when Leaburn came round, he jumped up and wanted to take on anybody and everybody wearing a blue shirt. I think he'd have happily fought all 11 of them at the same time , and had to be restrained by his Charlton team mates.
Another interesting point about that match was that the Chelsea side contained three future Charlton players in Pates, McLaughlinn and Bumstead.
Re your point that Parky ''doesn't think Jonjo's physically ready to play centrally in a flat midfield'', I'm not sure that's true and it's not what Parkinson himself is saying.
He says that Jonjo and ZZ ''replicate'' each other. As ZZ can certainly play central midfield, that must surely mean he thinks Jonjo can, too ?
Loved the Gerrard/Lampard analogy, WSS. And great response from Kinveachy !
[cite]Posted By: nigel w[/cite]Re your point that Parky ''doesn't think Jonjo's physically ready to play centrally in a flat midfield'', I'm not sure that's true and it's not what Parkinson himself is saying.
I think it's more of a case of his defensive ability at this level, and fitness. He's going to get stronger and fitter as he gets older, at the moment 90 minutes as a CM in the Championship is a lot of running for him.
In the right team, even against the right team, playing behind the striker in a free role, given freedom to concentrate on attacking it's perfect for him at the moment.
I just fear that with ZZ back and Parkinson's comments above, we are going to see very little of the lad over the last nine games this season.
Seems that the only way he might get back in is if we're only playing one upfront away from home and ZZ gets injured again.
I think that's a shame. You can only learn so much on the training ground and in the ressies. He's not going to become a better player if he doesn't play.
Comments
But he IS playing for us. Just not every match.
It should represent the most effective team unit, plus the contingency of players on the bench to come on and maintain that most effective team unit.
We had a young player a few years ago, we were in the top flight, but had little money so he became a first team player early, as a forward he was battered and bruised by big hairy a*sed central defenders and never really lived up to his potential, although occaisionally he showed glimpses of what he could do. He bacame a cult figure and some people wore a t-shirt celebrating seeing a goal by him or his one and only hat trick for us. But if he had not been our main striker, if he had not been over played at a young age, if he had been nurtured then maybe just maybe he would have become a legend because of his goal scoring prowess, not despite it. He was of course carl leaburn.
Leaburn would never have become a goalscoring legend. He eventually became a good all-round player and maybe that development was hindered by playing too much too early but if you think he would have ever scored 20 goals a season, I couldn't agree with you myself
He wasn't a prolific goalscorer (unless you compare him to Deon Burton) but he was an absolutely totally invalubale member of the team (who funnily enough I think played some of his best football when we were playing ''home'' games at Upton Park). So no, I don't accept what Kap says at all.
Wasn't Mickey Bennett the young player who never fulfilled his potential because he got battered and bruised, rather than Carlo?
Leaburn was more than big and bad enough to look after himself - as anyone who recalls his reaction when he got knocked out at Stamford Bridge will testify !
.......
He got injured against QPR the week after we won the Guinness Soccer Six thing...he was out the game for a year and just after he returned an offer came in from Wimbledon for about £250k and the club took it.
He was overweight and overslow, and just a shadow of the young winger we'd had such high hopes for.
No doubt in my mind that that team was the best I've ever seen in nearly 35 years watching. A team of home grown kids and reserves from some of the bigger clubs but worked so hard for the team and not without flare and talent either. I'd swap most of our our current lot for 'em today even if they are 50!
"Has Parky decided there is no room for ZZ and JonJo in the same squad - or is it just coincidence that the return of one has synchronised with the absence of the other?"
Well now Parky has given us the answer. Here's his reason given to the Bexley Times for dropping Jonjo:
"To put Jonjo on the bench, as well as Zizi, would be almost a case of replication - with two players who do similar roles."
Does anybody else buy the idea that we cannot play ZZ and Jonjo together? It seems nonsense to me but others may take a different view...
ps - further thought on edit : if Parkinson genuinely believes this and ZZ stays fit, then it seems we are going to see very little , if anything, of Jonjo over the rest of this season!
The bloke is utterly barmy - GET RID ASAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FACT.
What was this? I'm intrigued.
Parky doesn't think Jonjo's physically ready to play centrally in a flat midfield, so plays him off the striker. Problem being this formation doesn't seem to suit us too well with the attacking options we have. Jonjo said he knows he needs to get in the gym and build his strength, so hopefully after a chance to do this in pre-season he'll be ready to play in a straight 4-4-2 next year (when it really matters).
Parky is doing what he thinks is right by Jonjo, in the long term. I'm glad about that too.
But England can bench one of those two and bring in Barry, Carrick or Hargreaves.
We've got Matthew Spring!!!!!!!
Anyway, when Leaburn came round, he jumped up and wanted to take on anybody and everybody wearing a blue shirt. I think he'd have happily fought all 11 of them at the same time , and had to be restrained by his Charlton team mates.
Another interesting point about that match was that the Chelsea side contained three future Charlton players in Pates, McLaughlinn and Bumstead.
Re your point that Parky ''doesn't think Jonjo's physically ready to play centrally in a flat midfield'', I'm not sure that's true and it's not what Parkinson himself is saying.
He says that Jonjo and ZZ ''replicate'' each other. As ZZ can certainly play central midfield, that must surely mean he thinks Jonjo can, too ?
Loved the Gerrard/Lampard analogy, WSS. And great response from Kinveachy !
And we smashed them up & down the Fulham Road and in their benches area. LOL
That's what he said this time, but when jonjo signed he said "Phil Parkinson has told me he mainly sees me in a 4-4-1-1 formation for the time being. I agree with that, and it allows me to be more attacking-minded. I can play in a 4-4-2 - I just need to get in the gym and do some power exercises".
That's why i hope he'll be able to do it after a good pre-season. It'll make Jonjo easier to accomodate in the team.
It was Steve Wicks...
I think it's more of a case of his defensive ability at this level, and fitness. He's going to get stronger and fitter as he gets older, at the moment 90 minutes as a CM in the Championship is a lot of running for him.
In the right team, even against the right team, playing behind the striker in a free role, given freedom to concentrate on attacking it's perfect for him at the moment.
I just fear that with ZZ back and Parkinson's comments above, we are going to see very little of the lad over the last nine games this season.
Seems that the only way he might get back in is if we're only playing one upfront away from home and ZZ gets injured again.
I think that's a shame. You can only learn so much on the training ground and in the ressies. He's not going to become a better player if he doesn't play.
Well from him signing the contract it seems he just wanted to show us some loyalty.
Hopefully not. I think we'll see him back in the squad soon. Maybe not starting but he'll be involved again at some point.