I'm shocked at how far we have fallen since my last match as a resident of SE London (the 3-2 home defeat by Spurs in Oct 05 (we were 2 up at HT)).
However I will be still following from afar as avidly as ever & if CAFCTV is still around will be tuning in faithfully every Saturday morning at 8am MST to listen to us against the likes of Yeovil & Northampton. I would still be a ST holder & regular away fan if i was still over there.
It's gonna be a fascinating experience whatever happens, real football as opposed to the fantasy/make believe bubble that "supporters" of the big 4 live in.
[cite]Posted By: nigel w[/cite]Henry pointed out that: ''City, Villa, Stoke, Reading, Fulham, Hull, Sunderland, Birmingham have all been in Div 3 recently''.
But what was notable when clubs like Birmingham, Sunderland, Man City and Villa went down to div three is that it was their first time in that tier. Sunderland, Birmingham and City came back up in one season. Villa in two, I think. Their 'natural level' over their entire history has been bouncing around between divs one and two , and a season in div three was in most cases a once in a century blip (OK, I think it happened to Brum twice, but they came straight back up in one go on both occasions).
I'd like to believe that bouncing around between one and two is our 'natural level', too, and that like City, Brum, Sunderland etc. div three will be a one-season blip!
Points taken but bouncing around between divs 1 and 2 covers just under 50% of the 92 club league structure. That is a huge variation in position and I don't think you can call anywhere in the top two quartiles a "level"
The so called "natural" level can and has been changed by many clubs due to changes in the internal and external environment such as managers, owners, the maximum wage, economic decline and growth.
As Bing said our position is not pre-determined. We have shown that it can change for the better if well managed and for the worse if not. And not just recently but under the Glikstens when a lack of investment (partly due to WWII) meant we didn't capitalise on the success of the Seed team to build the club long term.
The future's not ours to see but I'm not writing off some more ups and downs to come.
With a good clear out and some decent management (players and management alike that understand this most unique of football clubs and what it stands for in the greater scheme of things)- a total re-invigoration there is absolutely no reason why we couldn't raise ourselves out of tier 3 at the first time of asking and return to the championship a leaner fitter fighting machine. With players used to success at an admittedly lower level we could be better prepared for Championship football and ....whisper it begin to try and get back in the top tier. Other clubs have done it, we can do it again. Fanciful it may seem but a freshly tuned Charlton Athletic could drop to Div 3, get promoted back and challenge for a Prem place in quicker time than clubs like Ipswich, Palace and a myriad of others just meandering in the comfort zone of the Championship year after year. In short a retreat may eventually lead to greater victories in the long run.
Leicester had never played in the third division until this season, but the drop seems to have reinvigorated them and I suspect they'll return to the second tier stronger both on and off the pitch.
What does worry me, though, is that we won't be the only unusual name falling into the third division - Norwich and Southampton are likely to join us. With Leeds unlikely to come up, that's a lot of big names scrapping for their reputations.
''there is absolutely no reason why we couldn't raise ourselves out of tier 3 at the first time of asking and return to the championship a leaner fitter fighting machine. With players used to success at an admittedly lower level we could be better prepared for Championship football.''
Wish I'd wrtten that, Pilchard. I reckon that is a really astute observation.
Looking back over the last two horrible seasons, you have to say that we have never really looked remotely as if we were prepared for the rigours of Championship football. We spent a season thinking we were a Prem side that was too good for the second tier and then a season realising that we actually hadn't got a clue how to tackle this league.
If we can come straight back up with a cheap, largely unknown team of players who want to prove themselves rather than a bunch of overpaid egos who think they should be superstars (Jerome Thomas etc), then there is no reason why we shouldn't take the Championship by storm in 2010/11, rather as Swansea have done this season.
That's what I call positive but realistic thinking, and it makes a welcome break from the tedious rose-tint cheerleaders v churlish doomsayers dichotomy which we've got locked into over the past few months.
It took Swansea a while to take the Championship by storm, though - their patience and unity of purpose is something we can learn from, as well as their neat football.
[cite]Posted By: nigel w[/cite]''there is absolutely no reason why we couldn't raise ourselves out of tier 3 at the first time of asking and return to the championship a leaner fitter fighting machine. With players used to success at an admittedly lower level we could be better prepared for Championship football.''
That's definitely true. The players carry on that momentum and belief that they can win. Wasn't long ago we forgot how to win and finish off a game, and we're still not convincing now.
[quote][cite]Posted By: Scoham[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: nigel w[/cite]''there is absolutely no reason why we couldn't raise ourselves out of tier 3 at the first time of asking and return to the championship a leaner fitter fighting machine. With players used to success at an admittedly lower level we could be better prepared for Championship football.''[/quote]
That's definitely true. The players carry on that momentum and belief that they can win. Wasn't long ago we forgot how to win and finish off a game, and we're still not convincing now.[/quote]
That was my one! Nigel was quoting me, I do agree though ;o)
[cite]Posted By: nigel w[/cite]''there is absolutely no reason why we couldn't raise ourselves out of tier 3 at the first time of asking and return to the championship a leaner fitter fighting machine. With players used to success at an admittedly lower level we could be better prepared for Championship football.''
That's definitely true. The players carry on that momentum and belief that they can win. Wasn't long ago we forgot how to win and finish off a game, and we're still not convincing now.
That was my one! Nigel was quoting me, I do agree though ;o)
Yes, I was quoting Pilchard. If you read my post properly, I said ''I wish I'd wrtten that'' .
Anyway, great post Pilchard. An object lesson in how to be positive and realistic at the same time. The way the terms 'realist' and 'rose-tinted' have become insults on CL in recent weeks has been rather silly, IMO !
I for one don't believe "Charlton deserve better" no team DESERVES any status.
This is a zero sum game. For one team to do well, another has to fail. In the CCC most teams are about the same quality and various factors such as determination and even luck come into it. Any team can win on their day and even beat top prem teams e.g. Coventry, Barnsley, Burnley.
What seems to matter in the long term is the support of the fans and whether they turn up week in week out and pay their money.
The future of this club is in our hands (and the director/sharholders). If we turn out each week this will turn around eventually. Every club (except perhaps Rochdale) has it's day. perhaps we have had ours for a while.
I SUPPORT A CLUB NOT A DIVISION - who ever said that was spot on.
Nigel, I'm surprised that you see 'no reason why we can't lift ourselves...etc.' considering your views on the current manager.( Views with which I agree by the way).
[cite]Posted By: InspectorSands[/cite]Leicester had never played in the third division until this season, but the drop seems to have reinvigorated them and I suspect they'll return to the second tier stronger both on and off the pitch.
What does worry me, though, is that we won't be the only unusual name falling into the third division - Norwich and Southampton are likely to join us. With Leeds unlikely to come up, that's a lot of big names scrapping for their reputations.
I think it is a dangerous game to compare our demise to that of Leceister. I've heard and read a great deal of comment along the lines of "look at Leceister this year, it hasn't harmed them".
Lets not forget, Leceister went down with 52 points on the last day of the season. They fought tooth and nail to the end. We are going with a whimper and are in spiral which if we aren't careful could carry on next year.
There have been comments about youngster stepping up to the plate next year - we were spun that one in the summer. Of our crop of youngster who have really stood out?. Shelvey of course, but I'm unconvinced by any of the others.
The game will get even more physical next season and to put our faith in youngsters again is probably going to be asking too much.
Loads of ifs and buts at the moment but what will the squad look like next season?. We all know who won't be here and I agree that anyone out of contract is likely to be on their way. The budget will dictate that people that will bring a price will be fair game too. I can see us losing Bailey, Racon and even the likes of Lloyd Sam.
With this in mind, I find myself asking the question "is it acceptable for us to give the season up whilst it is still mathematically possible to stay up"?. "Should we be sending loan players back and testing the water with those that are going to be here next season"?
Granted we have no option but to hang onto Ward and Kandol as we don't really have anyone else, further to this, they might if we are to believe the noises made by the club, be here next year. Realistically, in the current youth squad there is no one who will be ready in either of those positions next year. Before anyone puts Mambo in the frame, he isn't a regular starter for the reserves yet and will need a loan spell before we could even contemplate putting him near the first team.
I believe we could send Butterfield & Soares back, don't know how much they are costing but if we accept the season is gone then we have people that can play in those positions. I know nothing about Solly, but all I do know is if he is going to play next year it is unfair to give him a pre-season and chuck him in. Play him now, give him 10 games that don't really matter. We could learn an awful lot about him.
I guess this is yet another down beat post from yours truly (much less drunken this time) but I can't shake the nagging feeling that we haven't bottomed out yet.
Butterfield is on-loan for an initial month so we've got him for the next three weeks regardless. I think Soares is on-loan until the end of the season.
Regarding the comparison with Leicester, they pretty much kept their team together after getting relegated, selling only one or two players like Richard Stearman. The comparison I'd make is with our relegation from the premiership a decade ago, then we sold Danny Mills and kept the squad together and walked the league.
The key for us will be keeping the main players in the squad - Bailey, Shelvey, Racon etc and building around them. Leicester have though had Matt Fryatt fully fit this season. Had be played a bit more often last year maybe they'd have stayed up? A decade ago we had Andy Hunt, who will score the goals for us next season?
I should be able to do most games next season, if the girl who is on maternity leave currently comes back part time in June, then that will free up all my Saturday's again.
I'm with you Tavern, bring it on, old skool tour, and I might even let Terry Naylor on my bus! :-)
Across the evening sky, all the birds are leaving
But how can they know it's time for them to go?
Before the winter fire, I will still be dreaming
I have no thought of time
For who knows where the time goes?
Who knows where the time goes?
Sad, deserted shore, your fickle friends are leaving
Ah, but then you know it's time for them to go
But I will still be here, I have no thought of leaving
I do not count the time
For who knows where the time goes?
Who knows where the time goes?
And I am not alone while my love is near me
I know it will be so until it's time to go
So come the storms of winter and then the birds in spring again
I have no fear of time
For who knows how my love grows?
And who knows where the time goes?
Comments
However I will be still following from afar as avidly as ever & if CAFCTV is still around will be tuning in faithfully every Saturday morning at 8am MST to listen to us against the likes of Yeovil & Northampton. I would still be a ST holder & regular away fan if i was still over there.
It's gonna be a fascinating experience whatever happens, real football as opposed to the fantasy/make believe bubble that "supporters" of the big 4 live in.
What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.
Points taken but bouncing around between divs 1 and 2 covers just under 50% of the 92 club league structure. That is a huge variation in position and I don't think you can call anywhere in the top two quartiles a "level"
The so called "natural" level can and has been changed by many clubs due to changes in the internal and external environment such as managers, owners, the maximum wage, economic decline and growth.
As Bing said our position is not pre-determined. We have shown that it can change for the better if well managed and for the worse if not. And not just recently but under the Glikstens when a lack of investment (partly due to WWII) meant we didn't capitalise on the success of the Seed team to build the club long term.
The future's not ours to see but I'm not writing off some more ups and downs to come.
There are clubs in the Prem right now who did just that.
Within the last 10 years, Fulham, Wigan and Hull City were all 4th Division clubs.
So you always have to strive for what can be achieved.
Generally speaking, the limits are set only by your own limitations, within your own head.
Fanciful it may seem but a freshly tuned Charlton Athletic could drop to Div 3, get promoted back and challenge for a Prem place in quicker time than clubs like Ipswich, Palace and a myriad of others just meandering in the comfort zone of the Championship year after year. In short a retreat may eventually lead to greater victories in the long run.
What does worry me, though, is that we won't be the only unusual name falling into the third division - Norwich and Southampton are likely to join us. With Leeds unlikely to come up, that's a lot of big names scrapping for their reputations.
Wish I'd wrtten that, Pilchard. I reckon that is a really astute observation.
Looking back over the last two horrible seasons, you have to say that we have never really looked remotely as if we were prepared for the rigours of Championship football. We spent a season thinking we were a Prem side that was too good for the second tier and then a season realising that we actually hadn't got a clue how to tackle this league.
If we can come straight back up with a cheap, largely unknown team of players who want to prove themselves rather than a bunch of overpaid egos who think they should be superstars (Jerome Thomas etc), then there is no reason why we shouldn't take the Championship by storm in 2010/11, rather as Swansea have done this season.
That's what I call positive but realistic thinking, and it makes a welcome break from the tedious rose-tint cheerleaders v churlish doomsayers dichotomy which we've got locked into over the past few months.
That's definitely true. The players carry on that momentum and belief that they can win. Wasn't long ago we forgot how to win and finish off a game, and we're still not convincing now.
That's definitely true. The players carry on that momentum and belief that they can win. Wasn't long ago we forgot how to win and finish off a game, and we're still not convincing now.[/quote]
That was my one! Nigel was quoting me, I do agree though ;o)
Agree
Anyway, great post Pilchard. An object lesson in how to be positive and realistic at the same time. The way the terms 'realist' and 'rose-tinted' have become insults on CL in recent weeks has been rather silly, IMO !
This is a zero sum game. For one team to do well, another has to fail. In the CCC most teams are about the same quality and various factors such as determination and even luck come into it. Any team can win on their day and even beat top prem teams e.g. Coventry, Barnsley, Burnley.
What seems to matter in the long term is the support of the fans and whether they turn up week in week out and pay their money.
The future of this club is in our hands (and the director/sharholders). If we turn out each week this will turn around eventually. Every club (except perhaps Rochdale) has it's day. perhaps we have had ours for a while.
I SUPPORT A CLUB NOT A DIVISION - who ever said that was spot on.
I did realise that, just how I quoted it.
I did realise that, just how I quoted it.[/quote]
aha!
Now I KNOW why you married him
Top post Tavern!
I think it is a dangerous game to compare our demise to that of Leceister. I've heard and read a great deal of comment along the lines of "look at Leceister this year, it hasn't harmed them".
Lets not forget, Leceister went down with 52 points on the last day of the season. They fought tooth and nail to the end. We are going with a whimper and are in spiral which if we aren't careful could carry on next year.
There have been comments about youngster stepping up to the plate next year - we were spun that one in the summer. Of our crop of youngster who have really stood out?. Shelvey of course, but I'm unconvinced by any of the others.
The game will get even more physical next season and to put our faith in youngsters again is probably going to be asking too much.
Loads of ifs and buts at the moment but what will the squad look like next season?. We all know who won't be here and I agree that anyone out of contract is likely to be on their way. The budget will dictate that people that will bring a price will be fair game too. I can see us losing Bailey, Racon and even the likes of Lloyd Sam.
With this in mind, I find myself asking the question "is it acceptable for us to give the season up whilst it is still mathematically possible to stay up"?. "Should we be sending loan players back and testing the water with those that are going to be here next season"?
Granted we have no option but to hang onto Ward and Kandol as we don't really have anyone else, further to this, they might if we are to believe the noises made by the club, be here next year. Realistically, in the current youth squad there is no one who will be ready in either of those positions next year. Before anyone puts Mambo in the frame, he isn't a regular starter for the reserves yet and will need a loan spell before we could even contemplate putting him near the first team.
I believe we could send Butterfield & Soares back, don't know how much they are costing but if we accept the season is gone then we have people that can play in those positions. I know nothing about Solly, but all I do know is if he is going to play next year it is unfair to give him a pre-season and chuck him in. Play him now, give him 10 games that don't really matter. We could learn an awful lot about him.
I guess this is yet another down beat post from yours truly (much less drunken this time) but I can't shake the nagging feeling that we haven't bottomed out yet.
Regarding the comparison with Leicester, they pretty much kept their team together after getting relegated, selling only one or two players like Richard Stearman. The comparison I'd make is with our relegation from the premiership a decade ago, then we sold Danny Mills and kept the squad together and walked the league.
The key for us will be keeping the main players in the squad - Bailey, Shelvey, Racon etc and building around them. Leicester have though had Matt Fryatt fully fit this season. Had be played a bit more often last year maybe they'd have stayed up? A decade ago we had Andy Hunt, who will score the goals for us next season?
A decade ago?? Dear me *shakes head*
Who knows where the time goes?
I'm with you Tavern, bring it on, old skool tour, and I might even let Terry Naylor on my bus! :-)
But how can they know it's time for them to go?
Before the winter fire, I will still be dreaming
I have no thought of time
For who knows where the time goes?
Who knows where the time goes?
Sad, deserted shore, your fickle friends are leaving
Ah, but then you know it's time for them to go
But I will still be here, I have no thought of leaving
I do not count the time
For who knows where the time goes?
Who knows where the time goes?
And I am not alone while my love is near me
I know it will be so until it's time to go
So come the storms of winter and then the birds in spring again
I have no fear of time
For who knows how my love grows?
And who knows where the time goes?