With the rumours that Bouazza may well be off to Birmingham, this is exactly the scenario I am fearing. If Bouazza goes now, in January, we can do something about it, finances permitting. My fear is what happens once all the transfer windows have been locked and bolted and we lose a player or two just when we are building a head of steam??
[cite]Posted By: Sailor Browneye[/cite]With the rumours that Bouazza may well be off to Birmingham, this is exactly the scenario I am fearing. If Bouazza goes now, in January, we can do something about it, finances permitting. My fear is what happens once all the transfer windows have been locked and bolted and we lose a player or two just when we are building a head of steam??
My comment from the Bouazza thread:
Whatever one thinks of Bouazza this scenario rather reinforces the point Sailor made on the Murty thread about how beholden we are to the whim of the parent club with loans.
The trouble is with no money to buy seemingly what other alternative do we have assuming our own players are deemed not good enough?
Well, the words 'man', 'dead' and 'walking' spring to mind!!
This loan player scenario is a bit esoteric. You see some loans working out as players gel and then, perhaps by luck, not getting recalled by their parent club. Then others, so often ours (!), just don't really seem to work - look at the Lee Cook and Scott Sinclair debacle last season and, frankly, aren't we wasting money on Waghorn's wages in truth right now??
The combination of a poor manager and his poor decision-making will mean most player loans/acquisitions won't be a success. Hence, our previous problems. Add to that a financial meltdown courtesy of the administration's poor management of the books, I'm sorry to say, and you have a recipe for a club in freefall without much hope of arresting the decline.
But we still have to look out for potential mine fields and the recall of key loan players is a major danger if we do give ourselves a sniff of survival. I'd say Parky needs to focus on this issue a great deal prior to the close of the window.
A back four of Murty-Hudson/AN Other-Fortune-McEveley is arguably a top ten combination and worth trying to secure at all costs until May.
We used too many loans last season. This season we're using them though desperation, we need players in and there isn't really any other option. Especially when the window was closed and we got Gillespie, McEveley and Waghorn in.
Scoham - I think the loan signings of Gillespie and Burton, considering they were both dropped to the bench within a fortnight of arriving, should have been the final nail in Parky's coffin as it demonstrated a similar scatter-gun approach to that of Pardew.
But because the Board cannot afford to appoint a new manager and first team coach, Parkinson has another chance to dabble in the market. So, optimistically, he can make a better fist of it.
Murty looks a solid start but only if we aren't then hoisted over a barrel in a month's time. This too is OK if PP then says 'thanks Graeme for your efforts, good luck back at Reading, and, Charlton fans, let me present our new right back...'
I'd love Moo2 to be good enough but he isn't and in our situation we are about three straight defeats away from certain relegation. Moo2 has had some chances and he hasn't ever really demonstrated that he can be relied on.
Maybe he can be re-invented as a midfielder, who knows, but the time for that isn't now.
Possibly our biggest problem this season is the ease with which the oppostion can score at The Valley. The full backs at the club are not good enough, so replacing them with quality experience players is spot on and if Murty is only for a month then it is a crucial month.
Parky doesn't have any option but to wheel and deal, he has been left an invertebrate squad and needs to bring in players with backbone. It would be the same for any manager as this bunch of players would let down whoever was in charge.
It's blatantly obvious but we need to win some games to give ourselves a chance, if we could somehow win two or three games, then the possible returns of ZZ and Racon could theoretically see us capitalize on that positive momentum and finish mid table. Then again ...
And as Salad has just said, and AFKA earlier - it's about creating momentum NOW.
It's now we need to shed that losing mentality, the meek acceptance that if we concede, the game is over.
That's exactly what Salad refers to when he says we need to bring in players with backbone.
And Murts reputation is just that, combined with the fact that he's longstanding good friends with Parky, Parky knows what he is getting, and the trust is there between them.
So this player has been signed to put the fight and backbone into the side NOW, change things NOW, create that momentum NOW,
If that helps get us out of the bottom 3 by the end of the month, even if only by a whisker, and the players learn again that winning feeling - then that is one huge step forward for Charlton Athletic.
We can play only one game at a time. Let's just focus on that next one and take one step at a time.
[cite]Posted By: Oggy Red[/cite]And as Salad has just said, and AFKA earlier - it's about creating momentum NOW.
It's now we need to shed that losing mentality, the meek acceptance that if we concede, the game is over.
That's exactly what Salad refers to when he says we need to bring in players with backbone.
And Murts reputation is just that, combined with the fact that he's longstanding good friends with Parky, Parky knows what he is getting, and the trust is there between them.
So this player has been signed to put the fight and backbone into the side NOW, change things NOW, create that momentum NOW,
If that helps get us out of the bottom 3 by the end of the month, even if only by a whisker, and the players learn again that winning feeling - then that is one huge step forward for Charlton Athletic.
We can play only one game at a time. Let's just focus on that next one and take one step at a time.
Boys, I am all for creating momentum NOW - indeed that is what the main thrust of my point is about. But if we enter the latter stages of the season, the final ten games, and then, whoosh, there go our full backs, that's the problem, that's the worry.
I think January needs to be a very big month for us results-wise, no doubt, but we still have to perform well in February, March, April and early May.
Yes, Racon and ZZ (if he isn't sold) may well come back - great - but they aren't going to play full-back are they?
That responsibility may well fall to Yassin and Kelly or Grant...
I genuinely don't think it is easy for Parkinson with regard to controlling parent clubs, it's out of his hands, BUT when the final window slams shut, we will be in a very precarious situation if the likes of Murty and McEveley can be recalled at any time. Can we just keep stumbling blindly from one cock-up to the next?? Because, trust me, if we get some results under our belt, get a few clean sheets and then our defence has to be re-juggled it will feel like a cock-up.
Injuries, fine, that's bad luck, can't help that. Same with suspensions.
But if I was Phil Parkinson and I felt Moo2 wasn't good enough for the last 20 games, I don't think the fact I had Murty for four or five of those games would be enough of a solution. Or McEveley for nine or ten of them. This could come down to the final game of the season.
I'm not saying Murty shouldn't have been signed, not at all, but if Reading want him back in a month's time, Parky needs to have another option lined up. I hope that is what he is inferring from his comments on the OS.
Likewise with McEveley - hopefully Parky will get a clear steer from Derby on this.
Scoham - I think the loan signings of Gillespie and Burton, considering they were both dropped to the bench within a fortnight of arriving, should have been the final nail in Parky's coffin as it demonstrated a similar scatter-gun approach to that of Pardew.
I don't think they were scatter-gun signings in the way Pardew signed players. We clearly needed someone better (or at least more reliable) than Lloyd Sam on the right, especially as Ambrose had gone on loan to Ipswich. He was trying to replace one of the players in the team that wasn't performing, in a position we didn't have many options.
It didn't work as he would have hoped, but it was surely worth trying?
Burton Parkinson said himself he wanted another option to Andy Gray, again there weren't many players available. I can understand why it frustrates everyone though, Burton is a decent player but not a goalscorer, which we really need.
[cite]Posted By: Sailor Browneye[/cite]Boys, I am all for creating momentum NOW - indeed that is what the main thrust of my point is about. But if we enter the latter stages of the season, the final ten games, and then, whoosh, there go our full backs, that's the problem, that's the worry.
I think that's a fair point, but I don't think we have much choice at the moment. Parkinson will be hoping we start winning, McEveley and Murty play well, and we extend the loan until the rest of the season.
He will surely realise their clubs might want them back, hopefully he has other options.
Scoham, you really haven't got the hang of this t'internet thing have you.
The web is not the place for reasoned debate or trying to see the pros and cons of an argument. Take a position, entrench it and defend to the last man. That's the way to do it. : - )
The team started the season with 2 wins in 3. And 4 wins in our first 10 or so matches.
We were firmly esconsced in mid-table but aiming for the play-offs.
The difference back then was belief. Our players, despite a few defensive howlers, were playing with sufficient confidence to at least put some wins on the table.
And then came the disappointment of the Zabeel affair. The wheels fell off, the dressing room was damagingly divided and Pardew lost the plot.17 winless matches later, the players have plunged into their 'we can't win' psyche.
That's the root of the whole problem - lack of belief. That's what needs changing. And changing now.
Maybe Murty can contribute towards that. Experienced, tough campaigner - a dog of war if you like, and a tried and trusted mate of Parky. If he stays only 1 month but helps break the losing mentality, and after that first win, helps create a points gathering momentum, then he's done his job.
If he stays on after his initial month's loan - great. And if he goes back, we'll just get on with it.
In any case, we've no idea who else may be signed in this transfer window, we just don't know.
Also, we've Racon (maybe even ZZ will stay?) to come back in midfield, so we could easily find Semedo playing rightback, a position where he's put in some decent performances earlier this season. So let's take it that one match at a time.
Personally, I can see the recall of a player or two resulting in the dip in quality required to stifle any rally which we might create this month.
But, we are in a big hole as it is, and we have to arrest our slide right now and we cannot afford another run of winless games. So all this theorising might be academic anyway!!
You’re absolutely right Semedo could slip into the right back position and he’s never had a sustained run there but I’m not sure he’d offer as much reliability as Murty might, assuming the Reading man is fully fit and in form.
We probably have to finish in the top 12 results wise, from here on in, to get out of this mess as one or two of those around us will surely improve their points returns too.
Anyhow, you are certainly not alone in thinking a few good results with our present loanees might motivate some of under-achievers to raise their game if they then need to step in, so I just hope you are right.
Like Scoham rightly says above we aren’t exactly in a strong position with regard to our choices, so one thing we will need is a major slice of luck. So let’s hope we avoid having our loan signings recalled or alternatively Parky has more settled options in mind.
We have to get out of this winless rut and over the hump. It's a mental thing, isn't it?
All I'm saying is Murty can help towards doing that now. Should that result in a new belief gradually making itself felt, that momentum can be sustained by the team and whover may replace him - and he may very well even stay, who knows?
We may stay stuck in a rut or revive. So may other teams. It's a tight league and still others now comfortably in mid-table may yet sink like a stone - it happened to us earlier this season, remember?
It's not about blind optimism. But it is about considering how to approach our predicament from different angles.
Oggy mate - you? blindly optimistic??!!!! I have to put sunglasses on when I read some of your posts after some of our defeats!! ;-)
No, seriously, I understand your point entirely - and it's true Murty might be staying on. His comments on the OS don't really indicate that but you never know...
Let's hope we get out of this - it would feel like winning the FA Cup I think after all our problems!
[cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]Does make me laugh, Oggy down in Plymouth making friends with a Sailor.......
Excuse me, AFKA young man, I don't live in Plym-merrrrrfffff.
That's in England.
Oi lives with the Heathens, in the Indepenent Republic of Cornwall, me loverrrrrr!
We don't have sailors down here, we just make out with fishermen's wives, while their husbands are at sea.
Comments
My comment from the Bouazza thread:
Whatever one thinks of Bouazza this scenario rather reinforces the point Sailor made on the Murty thread about how beholden we are to the whim of the parent club with loans.
The trouble is with no money to buy seemingly what other alternative do we have assuming our own players are deemed not good enough?
Just something I've noticed when we've played well, not claiming that's all there is to it or I know better than any manager.
We rarely get in behind our opponents defence, the few times we've been able to we create chances.
Well, the words 'man', 'dead' and 'walking' spring to mind!!
This loan player scenario is a bit esoteric. You see some loans working out as players gel and then, perhaps by luck, not getting recalled by their parent club. Then others, so often ours (!), just don't really seem to work - look at the Lee Cook and Scott Sinclair debacle last season and, frankly, aren't we wasting money on Waghorn's wages in truth right now??
The combination of a poor manager and his poor decision-making will mean most player loans/acquisitions won't be a success. Hence, our previous problems. Add to that a financial meltdown courtesy of the administration's poor management of the books, I'm sorry to say, and you have a recipe for a club in freefall without much hope of arresting the decline.
But we still have to look out for potential mine fields and the recall of key loan players is a major danger if we do give ourselves a sniff of survival. I'd say Parky needs to focus on this issue a great deal prior to the close of the window.
A back four of Murty-Hudson/AN Other-Fortune-McEveley is arguably a top ten combination and worth trying to secure at all costs until May.
But because the Board cannot afford to appoint a new manager and first team coach, Parkinson has another chance to dabble in the market. So, optimistically, he can make a better fist of it.
Murty looks a solid start but only if we aren't then hoisted over a barrel in a month's time. This too is OK if PP then says 'thanks Graeme for your efforts, good luck back at Reading, and, Charlton fans, let me present our new right back...'
I'd love Moo2 to be good enough but he isn't and in our situation we are about three straight defeats away from certain relegation. Moo2 has had some chances and he hasn't ever really demonstrated that he can be relied on.
Maybe he can be re-invented as a midfielder, who knows, but the time for that isn't now.
Parky doesn't have any option but to wheel and deal, he has been left an invertebrate squad and needs to bring in players with backbone. It would be the same for any manager as this bunch of players would let down whoever was in charge.
It's blatantly obvious but we need to win some games to give ourselves a chance, if we could somehow win two or three games, then the possible returns of ZZ and Racon could theoretically see us capitalize on that positive momentum and finish mid table. Then again ...
It's now we need to shed that losing mentality, the meek acceptance that if we concede, the game is over.
That's exactly what Salad refers to when he says we need to bring in players with backbone.
And Murts reputation is just that, combined with the fact that he's longstanding good friends with Parky, Parky knows what he is getting, and the trust is there between them.
So this player has been signed to put the fight and backbone into the side NOW, change things NOW, create that momentum NOW,
If that helps get us out of the bottom 3 by the end of the month, even if only by a whisker, and the players learn again that winning feeling - then that is one huge step forward for Charlton Athletic.
We can play only one game at a time. Let's just focus on that next one and take one step at a time.
A Cliff Holton for the 21st Century?
Boys, I am all for creating momentum NOW - indeed that is what the main thrust of my point is about. But if we enter the latter stages of the season, the final ten games, and then, whoosh, there go our full backs, that's the problem, that's the worry.
I think January needs to be a very big month for us results-wise, no doubt, but we still have to perform well in February, March, April and early May.
Yes, Racon and ZZ (if he isn't sold) may well come back - great - but they aren't going to play full-back are they?
That responsibility may well fall to Yassin and Kelly or Grant...
I genuinely don't think it is easy for Parkinson with regard to controlling parent clubs, it's out of his hands, BUT when the final window slams shut, we will be in a very precarious situation if the likes of Murty and McEveley can be recalled at any time. Can we just keep stumbling blindly from one cock-up to the next?? Because, trust me, if we get some results under our belt, get a few clean sheets and then our defence has to be re-juggled it will feel like a cock-up.
Injuries, fine, that's bad luck, can't help that. Same with suspensions.
But if I was Phil Parkinson and I felt Moo2 wasn't good enough for the last 20 games, I don't think the fact I had Murty for four or five of those games would be enough of a solution. Or McEveley for nine or ten of them. This could come down to the final game of the season.
I'm not saying Murty shouldn't have been signed, not at all, but if Reading want him back in a month's time, Parky needs to have another option lined up. I hope that is what he is inferring from his comments on the OS.
Likewise with McEveley - hopefully Parky will get a clear steer from Derby on this.
I don't think they were scatter-gun signings in the way Pardew signed players. We clearly needed someone better (or at least more reliable) than Lloyd Sam on the right, especially as Ambrose had gone on loan to Ipswich. He was trying to replace one of the players in the team that wasn't performing, in a position we didn't have many options.
It didn't work as he would have hoped, but it was surely worth trying?
Burton Parkinson said himself he wanted another option to Andy Gray, again there weren't many players available. I can understand why it frustrates everyone though, Burton is a decent player but not a goalscorer, which we really need.
I think that's a fair point, but I don't think we have much choice at the moment. Parkinson will be hoping we start winning, McEveley and Murty play well, and we extend the loan until the rest of the season.
He will surely realise their clubs might want them back, hopefully he has other options.
The web is not the place for reasoned debate or trying to see the pros and cons of an argument. Take a position, entrench it and defend to the last man. That's the way to do it. : - )
The team started the season with 2 wins in 3. And 4 wins in our first 10 or so matches.
We were firmly esconsced in mid-table but aiming for the play-offs.
The difference back then was belief. Our players, despite a few defensive howlers, were playing with sufficient confidence to at least put some wins on the table.
And then came the disappointment of the Zabeel affair. The wheels fell off, the dressing room was damagingly divided and Pardew lost the plot.17 winless matches later, the players have plunged into their 'we can't win' psyche.
That's the root of the whole problem - lack of belief. That's what needs changing. And changing now.
Maybe Murty can contribute towards that. Experienced, tough campaigner - a dog of war if you like, and a tried and trusted mate of Parky. If he stays only 1 month but helps break the losing mentality, and after that first win, helps create a points gathering momentum, then he's done his job.
If he stays on after his initial month's loan - great. And if he goes back, we'll just get on with it.
In any case, we've no idea who else may be signed in this transfer window, we just don't know.
Also, we've Racon (maybe even ZZ will stay?) to come back in midfield, so we could easily find Semedo playing rightback, a position where he's put in some decent performances earlier this season. So let's take it that one match at a time.
Personally, I can see the recall of a player or two resulting in the dip in quality required to stifle any rally which we might create this month.
But, we are in a big hole as it is, and we have to arrest our slide right now and we cannot afford another run of winless games. So all this theorising might be academic anyway!!
You’re absolutely right Semedo could slip into the right back position and he’s never had a sustained run there but I’m not sure he’d offer as much reliability as Murty might, assuming the Reading man is fully fit and in form.
We probably have to finish in the top 12 results wise, from here on in, to get out of this mess as one or two of those around us will surely improve their points returns too.
Anyhow, you are certainly not alone in thinking a few good results with our present loanees might motivate some of under-achievers to raise their game if they then need to step in, so I just hope you are right.
Like Scoham rightly says above we aren’t exactly in a strong position with regard to our choices, so one thing we will need is a major slice of luck. So let’s hope we avoid having our loan signings recalled or alternatively Parky has more settled options in mind.
We have to get out of this winless rut and over the hump. It's a mental thing, isn't it?
All I'm saying is Murty can help towards doing that now. Should that result in a new belief gradually making itself felt, that momentum can be sustained by the team and whover may replace him - and he may very well even stay, who knows?
We may stay stuck in a rut or revive. So may other teams. It's a tight league and still others now comfortably in mid-table may yet sink like a stone - it happened to us earlier this season, remember?
It's not about blind optimism. But it is about considering how to approach our predicament from different angles.
No, seriously, I understand your point entirely - and it's true Murty might be staying on. His comments on the OS don't really indicate that but you never know...
Let's hope we get out of this - it would feel like winning the FA Cup I think after all our problems!
Cheers for now.
Excuse me, AFKA young man, I don't live in Plym-merrrrrfffff.
That's in England.
Oi lives with the Heathens, in the Indepenent Republic of Cornwall, me loverrrrrr!
We don't have sailors down here, we just make out with fishermen's wives, while their husbands are at sea.
;o)