[cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]BDL, Suzi, what's the bottom line then guys ?
We stick with the status quo, through thick or thin, regardless of results ? Regardless of the impact it will have ?
I'm not being mischivous, i'm genuinely interested to know how long you people that are currently more patient than me are prepared to stay with it if results do not turn around for the better.
I don't understand why there has to be a bottom line. Maybe its just that I don't see the deadline at the moment. I know my positivity is probably annoying to some, but yours probably was too until a few weeks ago when you reached the end of your teather, my teather must just be longer than yours! oo-er!
I dare say there may be a point when I lose my patience and lose my confidence in the side, but that hasn't happened yet, and I don't know if it will. I do know that I didn't give up until right near the end of the relegation season and I felt very low after the everton game when we were all singing valley floyd road in the pub as we scored for mcfadden to score and break our hearts, that was the point i gave up hope for staying up - which was a lot longer than a lot of people. having said that, I dont ever think that i felt anger or a need for someone to lose their job or a change in management/players etc because i thought "oh well, lets get on with it, and get ourselves out of the championship" which I guess is the same opinion i have now. its a collective thing, they are a team - WE are a team, I don't think one person shoudl be to blame, nor lose their job, and i don't see how that could help when i can't see how anyone else would be guaranteed to do better. I think a lot of people on here are after a guarantee, and sadly that just doesn't happen in football and i think by thinking that results, success could be guaranteed by a manager, player, or promotion, a rich buyer, means a lot of you could face a lot of disappointment over and over when it doesn't quite come off.
There is always at least 1 person that starts off pushing the blame on one person - Pardew seems to have to bite the bullet for us Last two games we should have won.
[cite]Posted By: WhenIwasLittleBoy[/cite]At what point BDL do u stop beig Mr Positive and become Mr Realisitic, if we havent done it by now we never will.
I have to disagree, not so much with the sentiment but that being positive and being realistic are not mutually exclusive nor are being negative and realistic.
I've reached the point where I don't think Pardew is the right person to manage the first team but that does not mean that he is solely to blame, that all the factors were within his control or that others do not have to shoulder the blame and by that I especially mean the players. I felt the same about Les Reed who was badly let down by the players and inherited a poor situation but he couldn't turn it around. It was right that he went and he went with a lot of dignity for which I continue to respect him.
And Pardew may turn it around. I would love it for him to take the team on a great run to the play offs and then him to say to me and the others who doubted him "Yar, boo sucks! what do you say now" I really would.
Suzi is right "we" are all in this together and if Pardew can turn that to our advantage and create a siege mentality among the players or a "We'll prove the boo boys and AFKA wrong" attitude then great. I don't care how he does it just as long as he does it.
No WMD in Iraq ? Just one of those honest mistakes that you go to war over.
Charlton with less points than we've played games? Just one of those seasons.
Harry Truman had a sign on his desk in the Oval Office that contained the words "buck", "stops" and "here".
There used to be a code of honour that when things went wrong, those with overall responsibility fell on their swords. They then at least had the satsfaction of knowing they had done the honourable thing. People don't seem to do that any more. The pay-off is more important than honour and to maximise the size of the cheque, the lawyers instruct their clients never to admit any personal liability or fault.
That's why a blame culture has developed - in response to people in office, whether politicians or football managers, who refuse to accept responsibility and won't do the honourable thing.
ps on edit : there are one or two honourable exceptions. Didn't Estelle Morris resign from the government saying she didn't think she was up to the job ? And dear old Les Reed probably belongs in the 'honourable' camp as well.
[cite]Posted By: nigel w[/cite]Run on the pound? Just one of those things.
No WMD in Iraq ? Just one of those honest mistakes that you go to war over.
Charlton with less points than we've played games? Just one of those seasons.
Harry Truman had a sign on his desk in the Oval Office that contained the words "buck", "stops" and "here".
There used to be a code of honour that when things went wrong, those with overall responsibility fell on their swords. They then at least had the satsfaction of knowing they had done the honourable thing. People don't seem to do that any more. The pay-off is more important than honour and to maximise the size of the cheque, the lawyers instruct their clients never to admit any personal liability or fault.
That's why a blame culture has developed - in response to people in office, whether politicians or football managers, who refuse to accept responsibility and won't do the honourable thing.
ps on edit : there are one or two honourable exceptions. Didn't Estelle Morris resign from the government saying she didn't think she was up to the job ? And dear old Les Reed probably belongs in the 'honourable' camp as well.
You've said it all Nigel.
A lot of "blame culture" is borne from frustration stemming from the lack of honour, integrity and accountability in modern society.
"Not my fault guv" which is fine when it genuinely isn't but surely in Baby P's case the Director of Social services must be accountable and in Charlton's case the manager.
[cite]Posted By: nigel w[/cite]Run on the pound? Just one of those things.
No WMD in Iraq ? Just one of those honest mistakes that you go to war over.
Charlton with less points than we've played games? Just one of those seasons.
Harry Truman had a sign on his desk in the Oval Office that contained the words "buck", "stops" and "here".
There used to be a code of honour that when things went wrong, those with overall responsibility fell on their swords. They then at least had the satsfaction of knowing they had done the honourable thing. People don't seem to do that any more. The pay-off is more important than honour and to maximise the size of the cheque, the lawyers instruct their clients never to admit any personal liability or fault.
That's why a blame culture has developed - in response to people in office, whether politicians or football managers, who refuse to accept responsibility and won't do the honourable thing.
ps on edit : there are one or two honourable exceptions. Didn't Estelle Morris resign from the government saying she didn't think she was up to the job ? And dear old Les Reed probably belongs in the 'honourable' camp as well.
You've said it all Nigel.
A lot of "blame culture" is borne from frustration stemming from the lack of honour, integrity and accountability in modern society.
"Not my fault guv" which is fine when it genuinely isn't but surely in Baby P's case the Director of Social services must be accountable and in Charlton's case the manager.
If not them then who?
not saying they are not responsible, but surely there are more than just 1 person responisible, it wasn't just 1 person involved same as there isn't in charlton, the players are as much at fault as pardew may be for picking them to play in the first place, or choosing to gamble on purchasing them. what i meant was, things are far too easy to blame someone, they leave, everybodies happy. i don't believe thats right. if another manager came in, he'd inherit the squad he may or may not get them playing, does that mean it is his fault? i do'nt know why 1 person has to be held accountable for everything.
With reward comes responsibilty (or it should do). If that is not the case why do "Chiefs" earn more than "Indians?"
In Charlton's case Pardew is (a very well rewarded) Chief.
Not saying I want him out by the way, I'm still in the "Trust the Board" camp but the question is a legitimate one and I understand why people ask it.
I do too, and totally see why he is being questioned. I agree that those who hold the responsibility are culpable, but just don't understand that that is where the blame ends. surely it goes both ways and branches out left right and centre and hopefully rectified so it never happens again. i just wish the energy some put into the questioning of pards and charlton put the same into positively supporting the board, the manager and the players and kept their hope for a bit longer. I think people are too quick to judge and call for action. obviously some disagree and think they've been patient with pardew, but the weaver post today asking for his head has got me at a loss. he's not the best keeper in the league, granted, but making two mistakes and costing us 3 points, when this season alone he's gained us a fair few has absolutely baffled me, which is why i started this post, more about blaming anyone rather than just a pardew post.
The Weaver thing is a bit odd...as I said elsewhere Ive never rated him as anything other than an average keeper.....he has committed a few howlers...Saturday wasnt an exception...he was flapping about at Ipswich and seems very uneasy when it comes to catching the ball...great shot stopper on his day which was Deano's biggest weakness.....another good to average keeper in his day. So at the end of the day why shouldnt Weavers place come into question when every other players position is changed for even the slightest of misdemeanours? Doesnt make sense to me.....Its not a witch hunt, players drop in and out of form, thats why we have a squad...why should Weaver be treated any differently?
However, Pardew bought the players in and told them what to do. He's the one who needs to stop blaming others.
The baby P is a different matter and really doesn't bear comparison. I love CAFC, but that is real life. If we get relegated I will be pissed off and depressed for a bit, but I'll get over it. I think you can see what I'm trying to say here.....
When something that wrong happens people MUST take responsibility. Although showing them going about their normal private lives for a cheap photo scoop is irrelevant and unfair. They are well paid and are expected to do their job properly - end of story.
It must be hard for those on the inside who work with or see Pardew every day. I am sure he is a nice guy & all that.....
but
football is a results game, there are no prizes for coming second or dropping points despite playing well. We are in a dire position & unless recent form DOES improve we will certainly be relegation candidates with all that entails.
It's not about blame or desire for nice people to lose their jobs, its about desire to succeed & at present Pardew is failing in his job - ie to successfully manage Charlton Athletic - I hope/pray he turns it round but a point may come sooner or later where enough is enough & he will be, as countless other managers have been before, looking for a new job.
Interesting fact - Hull City were roughly in our league position at exactly this time last year - it can be done.
Shirty, I think you will find that in early December Hull were in the drop zone or perilously close to it. Then their manager left 'by mutual consent'. His name? Phil Parkinson.
Next he came to Charlton and became part of the same management team that reduced us to the position Hull were in...
Not that I'm blaming anyone, of course. Hull were just having one of those seasons. Now Charlton are having just one of those seasons.
[cite]Posted By: nigel w[/cite]Shirty, I think you will find that in early December Hull were in the drop zone or perilously close to it. Then their manager left 'by mutual consent'. His name? Phil Parkinson.
Next he came to Charlton and became part of the same management team that reduced us to the position Hull were in...
Not that I'm blaming anyone, of course. Hull were just having one of those seasons. Now Charlton are having just one of those seasons.
Nobody's fault . S**t happens.
The lowest Hull were last december was 14th.
Parkinson went in 2006. Phil brown took over January 2007.
You talking about 2006/2007? They were in the bottom 3 for most of that season, and stayed up in 21st place.
The reason I think people don't put their hands up and take responsibility (in employment) is it normally results in them losing their post.
It gets right on my nerves that I have to keep records of what everyone including me is up to at work that revolves around something I have a say in. It's because as soon as something goes nipples north everyone goes 'weren't me mate'.
So it's all about blaming someone.
That poor baby, most of Harringey council should be out on their arses in my opinion, simple as, that should never, ever, ever be allowed to happen and all involved should be never in a position like the ones they are still in. However that is not really appropriate and a different matter.
I don't think on the other things us morons that make up the general public and buy newspapers other than the guardian are 'appeased' or silenced when someone gets sacked most people are just glad that whatever dickhead in a position of responsiblity have been held responsible for their balls up.
What film is it or who said with great power comes great responsibility ;-)
Anyway I'm going to get pissed and blame a brewery for my hangover tomorrow
It is not fair to blame the media, they only reflwct what their market wants. Thare's a blame culture because, sadly, most people are a bit dumb and complexity is beyond them. In times gone by when a crop failed the rabble would get together and burn some woman, it wasn't because of the media, it was because they were just really stupid and angry and need someone to suffer for their upset, but lack the capacity to work out who it should be. So it was then, so it is now. Get over it, or cryogenically freeze yourself and hope that in another 2000 years the average punter has evolved beyond retarded. If you do go down this road though remember the chilling end to Planet of the Apes. Do you want to be like Charlton, kneeling in front of a ruined Nelsons column while your monkey masters press you into slavery. It's a real possivility IMO.
the press have a choice not to pander to 'the mob', they can lead, it is money that does it and sensationalism sells newspapers. Its also why we have a public service broadcast media, although for some bizarre reason they tend to mimic the commercial media nowadays.
[cite]Posted By: DA9[/cite]Oi Henry, when did you become Oscar Wilde?
You calling me a wit and genius with words or a fat Irish poof : - )
LOL...now you come to mention it?
Once shared a train journey with Mike Reid the DJ, many years ago, he was writing the script for an Oscar Wilde stage play at the time, think it had a short local town run somewhere.
Comments
I don't understand why there has to be a bottom line. Maybe its just that I don't see the deadline at the moment. I know my positivity is probably annoying to some, but yours probably was too until a few weeks ago when you reached the end of your teather, my teather must just be longer than yours! oo-er!
I dare say there may be a point when I lose my patience and lose my confidence in the side, but that hasn't happened yet, and I don't know if it will. I do know that I didn't give up until right near the end of the relegation season and I felt very low after the everton game when we were all singing valley floyd road in the pub as we scored for mcfadden to score and break our hearts, that was the point i gave up hope for staying up - which was a lot longer than a lot of people. having said that, I dont ever think that i felt anger or a need for someone to lose their job or a change in management/players etc because i thought "oh well, lets get on with it, and get ourselves out of the championship" which I guess is the same opinion i have now. its a collective thing, they are a team - WE are a team, I don't think one person shoudl be to blame, nor lose their job, and i don't see how that could help when i can't see how anyone else would be guaranteed to do better. I think a lot of people on here are after a guarantee, and sadly that just doesn't happen in football and i think by thinking that results, success could be guaranteed by a manager, player, or promotion, a rich buyer, means a lot of you could face a lot of disappointment over and over when it doesn't quite come off.
I have to disagree, not so much with the sentiment but that being positive and being realistic are not mutually exclusive nor are being negative and realistic.
I've reached the point where I don't think Pardew is the right person to manage the first team but that does not mean that he is solely to blame, that all the factors were within his control or that others do not have to shoulder the blame and by that I especially mean the players. I felt the same about Les Reed who was badly let down by the players and inherited a poor situation but he couldn't turn it around. It was right that he went and he went with a lot of dignity for which I continue to respect him.
And Pardew may turn it around. I would love it for him to take the team on a great run to the play offs and then him to say to me and the others who doubted him "Yar, boo sucks! what do you say now" I really would.
Suzi is right "we" are all in this together and if Pardew can turn that to our advantage and create a siege mentality among the players or a "We'll prove the boo boys and AFKA wrong" attitude then great. I don't care how he does it just as long as he does it.
No WMD in Iraq ? Just one of those honest mistakes that you go to war over.
Charlton with less points than we've played games? Just one of those seasons.
Harry Truman had a sign on his desk in the Oval Office that contained the words "buck", "stops" and "here".
There used to be a code of honour that when things went wrong, those with overall responsibility fell on their swords. They then at least had the satsfaction of knowing they had done the honourable thing. People don't seem to do that any more. The pay-off is more important than honour and to maximise the size of the cheque, the lawyers instruct their clients never to admit any personal liability or fault.
That's why a blame culture has developed - in response to people in office, whether politicians or football managers, who refuse to accept responsibility and won't do the honourable thing.
ps on edit : there are one or two honourable exceptions. Didn't Estelle Morris resign from the government saying she didn't think she was up to the job ? And dear old Les Reed probably belongs in the 'honourable' camp as well.
You've said it all Nigel.
A lot of "blame culture" is borne from frustration stemming from the lack of honour, integrity and accountability in modern society.
"Not my fault guv" which is fine when it genuinely isn't but surely in Baby P's case the Director of Social services must be accountable and in Charlton's case the manager.
If not them then who?
not saying they are not responsible, but surely there are more than just 1 person responisible, it wasn't just 1 person involved same as there isn't in charlton, the players are as much at fault as pardew may be for picking them to play in the first place, or choosing to gamble on purchasing them. what i meant was, things are far too easy to blame someone, they leave, everybodies happy. i don't believe thats right. if another manager came in, he'd inherit the squad he may or may not get them playing, does that mean it is his fault? i do'nt know why 1 person has to be held accountable for everything.
With reward comes responsibilty (or it should do). If that is not the case why do "Chiefs" earn more than "Indians?"
In Charlton's case Pardew is (a very well rewarded) Chief.
Not saying I want him out by the way, I'm still in the "Trust the Board" camp but the question is a legitimate one and I understand why people ask it.
I do too, and totally see why he is being questioned. I agree that those who hold the responsibility are culpable, but just don't understand that that is where the blame ends. surely it goes both ways and branches out left right and centre and hopefully rectified so it never happens again. i just wish the energy some put into the questioning of pards and charlton put the same into positively supporting the board, the manager and the players and kept their hope for a bit longer. I think people are too quick to judge and call for action. obviously some disagree and think they've been patient with pardew, but the weaver post today asking for his head has got me at a loss. he's not the best keeper in the league, granted, but making two mistakes and costing us 3 points, when this season alone he's gained us a fair few has absolutely baffled me, which is why i started this post, more about blaming anyone rather than just a pardew post.
He has done far more good things than bad since he joined.
However, Pardew bought the players in and told them what to do. He's the one who needs to stop blaming others.
The baby P is a different matter and really doesn't bear comparison. I love CAFC, but that is real life. If we get relegated I will be pissed off and depressed for a bit, but I'll get over it. I think you can see what I'm trying to say here.....
When something that wrong happens people MUST take responsibility. Although showing them going about their normal private lives for a cheap photo scoop is irrelevant and unfair. They are well paid and are expected to do their job properly - end of story.
but
football is a results game, there are no prizes for coming second or dropping points despite playing well. We are in a dire position & unless recent form DOES improve we will certainly be relegation candidates with all that entails.
It's not about blame or desire for nice people to lose their jobs, its about desire to succeed & at present Pardew is failing in his job - ie to successfully manage Charlton Athletic - I hope/pray he turns it round but a point may come sooner or later where enough is enough & he will be, as countless other managers have been before, looking for a new job.
Interesting fact - Hull City were roughly in our league position at exactly this time last year - it can be done.
Hull were 9th after 17 games played, however Palace were 20th and got in the play offs as we all know. Palace did have a new boss by then though.
• This Manager bought most of these players
• Players do not get sacked, Mangers do.
Next he came to Charlton and became part of the same management team that reduced us to the position Hull were in...
Not that I'm blaming anyone, of course. Hull were just having one of those seasons. Now Charlton are having just one of those seasons.
Nobody's fault . S**t happens.
The lowest Hull were last december was 14th.
Parkinson went in 2006. Phil brown took over January 2007.
You talking about 2006/2007? They were in the bottom 3 for most of that season, and stayed up in 21st place.
Shirty, yes I am indeed. Please bon't blame me though in this blame free culture !
It gets right on my nerves that I have to keep records of what everyone including me is up to at work that revolves around something I have a say in. It's because as soon as something goes nipples north everyone goes 'weren't me mate'.
So it's all about blaming someone.
That poor baby, most of Harringey council should be out on their arses in my opinion, simple as, that should never, ever, ever be allowed to happen and all involved should be never in a position like the ones they are still in. However that is not really appropriate and a different matter.
I don't think on the other things us morons that make up the general public and buy newspapers other than the guardian are 'appeased' or silenced when someone gets sacked most people are just glad that whatever dickhead in a position of responsiblity have been held responsible for their balls up.
What film is it or who said with great power comes great responsibility ;-)
Anyway I'm going to get pissed and blame a brewery for my hangover tomorrow
Cripes!
Doesn't look too good does it?
You calling me a wit and genius with words or a fat Irish poof : - )
LOL...now you come to mention it?
Once shared a train journey with Mike Reid the DJ, many years ago, he was writing the script for an Oscar Wilde stage play at the time, think it had a short local town run somewhere.
Even the cameras are at it!