A lot of Dicko's goals for Gillingham were scored in the Johnstones Paint Trophy when teams were often not at full strength.
Don't get me wrong - I'd like to see him get a fair go at Charlton because I think he has the potential to offer something different but don't let us exaggerate what he has achieved thus far....
[cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite]A lot of Dicko's goals for Gillingham were scored in the Johnstones Paint Trophy when teams were often not at full strength.
Don't get me wrong - I'd like to see him get a fair go at Charlton because I think he has the potential to offer something different but don't let us exaggerate what he has achieved thus far....
7 in 9 starts in the League and 4 in 2 in the JPT for Gillingham. There aren't many strikers in the country with that goals to games ratio.
[cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite]A lot of Dicko's goals for Gillingham were scored in the Johnstones Paint Trophy when teams were often not at full strength.
Don't get me wrong - I'd like to see him get a fair go at Charlton because I think he has the potential to offer something different but don't let us exaggerate what he has achieved thus far....
7 in 9 starts in the League and 4 in 2 in the JPT for Gillingham. There aren't many strikers in the country with that goals to games ratio.
Last one I remember with stats like that was a young striker called Jermaine Defoe on loan at Bournemouth. But he hasn't gone on to do much after that, so why should Dicko? ;-)
[cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite]A lot of Dicko's goals for Gillingham were scored in the Johnstones Paint Trophy when teams were often not at full strength.
Don't get me wrong - I'd like to see him get a fair go at Charlton because I think he has the potential to offer something different but don't let us exaggerate what he has achieved thus far....
7 in 9 starts in the League and 4 in 2 in the JPT for Gillingham. There aren't many strikers in the country with that goals to games ratio.
If that is right then I must admit that his league record is better than I thought.
As I live in the area I take an interest in Gillingham and the fans view of him was mixed when he was there. Some reckoned he offered nothing if he wasn't scoring (contrast with attiudes to Varney) but others said he was worth a place because if he got a chance it was a goal more often than not.
I guess this is the dilemma Pardew has to come to terms with.
But it has ever been thus .........Clive Mendonca covering every blade of grass?
Gary Lineker crunching tackles and box-to-box, erm, nope........great hold up play from Clive Allen? ....... no, not really, but 49 top level goals in one season tells you what he was all about.
Jimmy Greaves said in his book something along the lines of, ".........I might not hardly touch the ball all game, but I had to concentate hard and stay focused for that one chance that would win us the game."
See, he knew his job ........ and so did his team mates and managers.
It was Sir Alf Ramsey who started the rot of the luxury goalscorer back in 1966, with his 'wingless wonders' England World cup winning side. But it wasn't just the wingers who were victims ..... so was Greavsie.
These days, it's all about running, pace, power and energy - and wingers having to be strikers and full backs too, before they are allowed to play the position they are in the team for ....principally to provide a service to the front men.
It's no different for strikers either - you're just as likely to see them chasing down an opponent in midfield or outwide, as much as in the box.
And there's Dicko's problem - he's a goalscorer and not a 100% allrounder.
I think the issue is Oggy that those players you list were playing in teams that were strong enough to carry a player like Dickson through the rest of the game. The only way we seem to be able to get a foothold in a game is by playing 5 in midfield and I don't know if Dicko can play as a lone striker, I suspect he'll need a partner to do the donkey work for him.
Perhaps we should be trying him and Varney as a pair.
Fair point, Exiled, although those teams were actually set up to carry a main goalscorer. And so were many of their opponents.
Although I wouldn't have said that the England teams of Bobby Robson and Graham Taylor, were strong enough to carry a player like Lineker but he still scored 49 goals for his country.
But of course, it's all subjective.
Dicko and Varney could be great running the channels, as could McLeod - but I can't see the ball sticking, so that would put our own defence under pressure too frequently.
Toddy and Gray, both hold the ball up brilliantly, with good vision and distribution - but neither has pace, so you can't really play them in tandem.
I don't buy this can't play 2 strikers that don't have pace. Hunt and Mendonca were both slowish strikers who relied on inteligence of movement and good hold up play and they did alright as a pair. Mendonca also was partnered for most of our play-off season with either Leaburn or Bright, again hardly greyhounds, but we scored hatfuls that season.
I still feel Toddy and Grey could work, the key is giving service that they can get under control and then hold up (too many of our long balls are either aimless or at head height rather than to chest or feet) and then getting support to them, especially out wide so they can play the wingers/fullbacks in, spin and attack the cross which will (hopefully) soon be heading their way. Bailey can then hang around the edge of the box for any underhit clearances.
Maybe I'm putting too much faith in our wingers, but our central midfields are willing but a little workmanlike, I don't think they have the vision to consistently feed an on the shoulders type striker with service they need. I think playing the way I suggest would yield us more goalscoring chances and also play more to the strengths of the two 'proven' strikers at the club.
When Toddy came on at Argyle for the last 20, he played alongside Gray for 5 mins until Dicko came on.
Then with Sam tricky wide right, Gray dropped deeper into attacking midfield - suddenly we were playing some neat pass and move, ball to feet into some advanced positions, with Toddy doing his stuff. Both Youga and Moo2 were bombing down both flanks and Argyle defenders were being turned inside out.
[cite]Posted By: Exiled_Addick[/cite]Maybe I'm putting too much faith in our wingers, but our central midfields are willing but a little workmanlike, I don't think they have the vision to consistently feed an on the shoulders type striker with service they need. I think playing the way I suggest would yield us more goalscoring chances and also play more to the strengths of the two 'proven' strikers at the club.
I think thats a fair point, I haven't seen many through balls from our central midfield in a long time.
[cite]Posted By: Exiled_Addick[/cite]I don't buy this can't play 2 strikers that don't have pace. Hunt and Mendonca were both slowish strikers who relied on inteligence of movement and good hold up play and they did alright as a pair. Mendonca also was partnered for most of our play-off season with either Leaburn or Bright, again hardly greyhounds, but we scored hatfuls that season.
I still feel Toddy and Grey could work, the key is giving service that they can get under control and then hold up (too many of our long balls are either aimless or at head height rather than to chest or feet) and then getting support to them, especially out wide so they can play the wingers/fullbacks in, spin and attack the cross which will (hopefully) soon be heading their way. Bailey can then hang around the edge of the box for any underhit clearances.
Maybe I'm putting too much faith in our wingers, but our central midfields are willing but a little workmanlike, I don't think they have the vision to consistently feed an on the shoulders type striker with service they need. I think playing the way I suggest would yield us more goalscoring chances and also play more to the strengths of the two 'proven' strikers at the club.
I think thats a very good point. I think Gray and Toddy are far and away the best "footballers"out of our strikers and should be tried. Intelligent movement and clever touches don't require pace.
[cite]Posted By: Exiled_Addick[/cite]Maybe I'm putting too much faith in our wingers, but our central midfields are willing but a little workmanlike, I don't think they have the vision to consistently feed an on the shoulders type striker with service they need. I think playing the way I suggest would yield us more goalscoring chances and also play more to the strengths of the two 'proven' strikers at the club.
I think thats a fair point, I haven't seen many through balls from our central midfield in a long time.
I was watching SSN last night and they showed 4 goals from a game (Spanish League i think).
3 of the goals came from defense splitting through balls that the pacey striker got onto the end of and slotted home.
I sat there and tried to remember the last time we scored a goal like that, it must have been when we still had Bent.
[cite]Posted By: Exiled_Addick[/cite]Maybe I'm putting too much faith in our wingers, but our central midfields are willing but a little workmanlike, I don't think they have the vision to consistently feed an on the shoulders type striker with service they need. I think playing the way I suggest would yield us more goalscoring chances and also play more to the strengths of the two 'proven' strikers at the club.
I think thats a fair point, I haven't seen many through balls from our central midfield in a long time.
I was watching SSN last night and they showed 4 goals from a game (Spanish League i think).
3 of the goals came from defense splitting through balls that the pacey striker got onto the end of and slotted home.
I sat there and tried to remember the last time we scored a goal like that, it must have been when we still had Bent.
there's been a few this year, although you never remeber them as you never expect varney to score, unlike Bent who you knew would put away, 2 outa 3 chances like that (although atleast 1 of those would be called for offside!!)
[quote][cite]Posted By: Oggy Red[/cite]When Toddy came on at Argyle for the last 20, he played alongside Gray for 5 mins until Dicko came on.
Then with Sam tricky wide right, Gray dropped deeper into attacking midfield - suddenly we were playing some neat pass and move, ball to feet into some advanced positions, with Toddy doing his stuff. Both Youga and Moo2 were bombing down both flanks and Argyle defenders were being turned inside out.
So maybe you've got a point.[/quote]
You will only get space in midfield if you have someone pacy standing on the last man's shoulder, otherwise the defence can push up and condense the play. I wonder if Pard's new training method's recognise this (at both ends) because we have seen precious little of it in the two years he's been here.
Yes AG, but the pace comes by pushing the wingers up the pitch, what good is having a pacy man on the last defendrs shoulder if we've noone capable of picking him out? So he'll open paly up a bit but we've got noone who'll take advantage.
I don’t know how Dickson played yesterday but it was another example where he is used as a last resort.
The following is a breakdown of Dickson’s appearances in the first team this season:
Yeovil – came on after 67 minutes (score 0-1) during which time we drew 0-0
Watford – came on after 72 minutes (score 0-1) during which time we drew 0-0
Preston – came on after 78 minutes (score 1-2) during which time we drew 0-0
Wolves – came on after 79 minutes (score 1-1) during which time we lost 2-0
Bristol City – came on after 57 minutes (score 0-2) during which time we drew 0-0
Ipswich - came on after 78 minutes during (score 0-1) which time we won 1-0
Barnsley - came on after 73 minutes (score 0-3) during which time we won 1-0
Plymouth - came on after 74 minutes (score 0-1) during which time we won 2-1
Blackpool – came on after 80 minutes (score 0-2) during which time we drew 0-0
Norwich – came on after 80 minutes (score 1-1) during which time we drew 0-0
Sheffield Wednesday - came on after 68 minutes (score 0-3) during which time we drew 1-1
So, in summary:
Results before Dickson came on – Won 0 Drew 2 Lost 9 For 3 Against 18
Results after Dickson came on – Won 3 Drew 7 Lost 1 For 5 Against 4
On the one hand it could be argued that Dickson has failed to find the net from the limited opportunities he has had. On the other, however, the results themselves show that, as a team, we have fared infinitely better when he has been on the pitch (scored 5 and let in 4 in 204 minutes) than when he hasn’t (scored just 3 but let in 18 in 800 minutes).
We have the worst away record of any team in the League. We have scored just 10 in 14 away games. Why? We’ve stuck with 4-5-1 all season and the only League game where it’s worked (in terms of a result) is Doncaster (though we did have Varney as well as Gray in the team). Even then, by all accounts, we were outclassed and if it wasn’t for their lack of finishing we would have lost there as well.
We’ve even played 4-5-1 at home and it hasn’t worked by virtue of the fact that we have given the initiative to the opposition. We have, effectively, invited them to attack us and all that happens is we end up giving away free kicks and corners from which we are most vulnerable. Moreover, we have no lead to cling onto and end up chasing the game. Though, from the stats above, we’ve not done too badly after we’ve made that change but the damage by then has already been done.
The solution has to be to revert to 4-4-2 and try and shoot out way out of trouble. Yes we might well get thumped in a few games by doing it but we might also get a few results from which some confidence would be gained.
Although the most damning stat of all remains the fact that the longest he has been given is 33 mins and the average time he has been allowed on the pitch is around 14-15 mins...
If we had Mendoca and Hunt banging them in, that might be fair enough. But in case anyone hadn't noticed (like those who stand on the touch-line with their arms folded and make these decisions), M & H both retired rather a long time ago...
I don't see much difference between Dickson and McLeod, yet McLeod has had several starts and Dickson hasn't had one. Is that because McLeod is the £1m+ player? Or does he have a better attitude, or work harder in trianing? The difference between them I have seen is Dickson is a decent finisher, McLeod isn't.
Dickson has now become a "no win" figure for Parky. If he doesn't play him and we continue not to get the results then the call for him from the fans will become even greater. If, however, he does play him and he scores on a regular basis then major questions will be asked about Parky's inability to manage i.e. why has it taken him so long to play him.
Clearly he's been hoping that Burton, Gray, Waghorn plus any other strikers he can get in on loan will produce the goods but time is now rapidly running out for us all and certainly there is no room for one man's ego to become more important than the good of the Club overall. After all, we will all be here tomorrow but will Parky?
[cite]Posted By: Addick Addict[/cite]Dickson has now become a "no win" figure for Parky. If he doesn't play him and we continue not to get the results then the call for him from the fans will become even greater. If, however, he does play him and he scores on a regular basis then major questions will be asked about Parky's inability to manage i.e. why has it taken him so long to play him.
Clearly he's been hoping that Burton, Gray, Waghorn plus any other strikers he can get in on loan will produce the goods but time is now rapidly running out for us all and certainly there is no room for one man's ego to become more important than the good of the Club overall. After all, we will all be here tomorrow but will Parky?
I think you're right here but the fact is PP was here under Pardew so must have seen that Gray hasn't been performing, must've seen that Waghorn isn't quite ready yet, must've seen that Todorov can't play more than 20 minutes, and if he had any knowledge of th division must've known that after 1 goal in about 20 games for Sheff Weds that Burton wasn't going to get goals to get us up the table. So you'd have thought he'd try something that Pardew didn't and give Dickson a game.
Either the management think Dickson's rubbish or he's got an attitude problem but if thats the case then why keep giving him sub appearances and loan McLeod out?
And from comments Uncle made he obviously isn't rubbish and he links up well with Shelvey in reserve games, so with us clearly having thrown every other dice available, why not throw it a last time and start the bloke. I can categorically 100% state that he can do no worse than the sh*t we see up front every week.
Just checked Gray's stats to complement Addict's very thorough research on Dicko's appearances.
AG made a decent start, along with the team - four goals in the first six games, although two were pens.
But since scoring the winner at Doncaster on Sept 16, he's managed just two from open play. That's an average of one goal every two months.So we're due another one some time in March, by when we will be relegated,anyway... how Dicko or Izale can be any worse than that is surely a figment of Pardky's imagination shared by nobody else.
[cite]Posted By: Chris_from_Sidcup[/cite]Either the management think Dickson's rubbish or he's got an attitude problem but if thats the case then why keep giving him sub appearances and loan McLeod out?
To be fair they did confirm that Dickson has rejected loan offers. He only wants to leave permanently (or get a chance here I guess). McLeod was probably happy to go and get some games.
Comments
Don't get me wrong - I'd like to see him get a fair go at Charlton because I think he has the potential to offer something different but don't let us exaggerate what he has achieved thus far....
7 in 9 starts in the League and 4 in 2 in the JPT for Gillingham. There aren't many strikers in the country with that goals to games ratio.
Last one I remember with stats like that was a young striker called Jermaine Defoe on loan at Bournemouth. But he hasn't gone on to do much after that, so why should Dicko? ;-)
If that is right then I must admit that his league record is better than I thought.
As I live in the area I take an interest in Gillingham and the fans view of him was mixed when he was there. Some reckoned he offered nothing if he wasn't scoring (contrast with attiudes to Varney) but others said he was worth a place because if he got a chance it was a goal more often than not.
I guess this is the dilemma Pardew has to come to terms with.
Gary Lineker crunching tackles and box-to-box, erm, nope........great hold up play from Clive Allen? ....... no, not really, but 49 top level goals in one season tells you what he was all about.
Jimmy Greaves said in his book something along the lines of, ".........I might not hardly touch the ball all game, but I had to concentate hard and stay focused for that one chance that would win us the game."
See, he knew his job ........ and so did his team mates and managers.
It was Sir Alf Ramsey who started the rot of the luxury goalscorer back in 1966, with his 'wingless wonders' England World cup winning side. But it wasn't just the wingers who were victims ..... so was Greavsie.
These days, it's all about running, pace, power and energy - and wingers having to be strikers and full backs too, before they are allowed to play the position they are in the team for ....principally to provide a service to the front men.
It's no different for strikers either - you're just as likely to see them chasing down an opponent in midfield or outwide, as much as in the box.
And there's Dicko's problem - he's a goalscorer and not a 100% allrounder.
Perhaps we should be trying him and Varney as a pair.
Although I wouldn't have said that the England teams of Bobby Robson and Graham Taylor, were strong enough to carry a player like Lineker but he still scored 49 goals for his country.
But of course, it's all subjective.
Dicko and Varney could be great running the channels, as could McLeod - but I can't see the ball sticking, so that would put our own defence under pressure too frequently.
Toddy and Gray, both hold the ball up brilliantly, with good vision and distribution - but neither has pace, so you can't really play them in tandem.
But you could play either one of them with Dicko.
I still feel Toddy and Grey could work, the key is giving service that they can get under control and then hold up (too many of our long balls are either aimless or at head height rather than to chest or feet) and then getting support to them, especially out wide so they can play the wingers/fullbacks in, spin and attack the cross which will (hopefully) soon be heading their way. Bailey can then hang around the edge of the box for any underhit clearances.
Maybe I'm putting too much faith in our wingers, but our central midfields are willing but a little workmanlike, I don't think they have the vision to consistently feed an on the shoulders type striker with service they need. I think playing the way I suggest would yield us more goalscoring chances and also play more to the strengths of the two 'proven' strikers at the club.
Then with Sam tricky wide right, Gray dropped deeper into attacking midfield - suddenly we were playing some neat pass and move, ball to feet into some advanced positions, with Toddy doing his stuff. Both Youga and Moo2 were bombing down both flanks and Argyle defenders were being turned inside out.
So maybe you've got a point.
I think thats a fair point, I haven't seen many through balls from our central midfield in a long time.
I think thats a very good point. I think Gray and Toddy are far and away the best "footballers"out of our strikers and should be tried. Intelligent movement and clever touches don't require pace.
I was watching SSN last night and they showed 4 goals from a game (Spanish League i think).
3 of the goals came from defense splitting through balls that the pacey striker got onto the end of and slotted home.
I sat there and tried to remember the last time we scored a goal like that, it must have been when we still had Bent.
and Dickson can make the runs and score!!!
;o)
there's been a few this year, although you never remeber them as you never expect varney to score, unlike Bent who you knew would put away, 2 outa 3 chances like that (although atleast 1 of those would be called for offside!!)
http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/sport/3844932.Pards_prepared_to_wait_a_little_longer_for_signings/
Then with Sam tricky wide right, Gray dropped deeper into attacking midfield - suddenly we were playing some neat pass and move, ball to feet into some advanced positions, with Toddy doing his stuff. Both Youga and Moo2 were bombing down both flanks and Argyle defenders were being turned inside out.
So maybe you've got a point.[/quote]
You will only get space in midfield if you have someone pacy standing on the last man's shoulder, otherwise the defence can push up and condense the play. I wonder if Pard's new training method's recognise this (at both ends) because we have seen precious little of it in the two years he's been here.
The following is a breakdown of Dickson’s appearances in the first team this season:
Yeovil – came on after 67 minutes (score 0-1) during which time we drew 0-0
Watford – came on after 72 minutes (score 0-1) during which time we drew 0-0
Preston – came on after 78 minutes (score 1-2) during which time we drew 0-0
Wolves – came on after 79 minutes (score 1-1) during which time we lost 2-0
Bristol City – came on after 57 minutes (score 0-2) during which time we drew 0-0
Ipswich - came on after 78 minutes during (score 0-1) which time we won 1-0
Barnsley - came on after 73 minutes (score 0-3) during which time we won 1-0
Plymouth - came on after 74 minutes (score 0-1) during which time we won 2-1
Blackpool – came on after 80 minutes (score 0-2) during which time we drew 0-0
Norwich – came on after 80 minutes (score 1-1) during which time we drew 0-0
Sheffield Wednesday - came on after 68 minutes (score 0-3) during which time we drew 1-1
So, in summary:
Results before Dickson came on – Won 0 Drew 2 Lost 9 For 3 Against 18
Results after Dickson came on – Won 3 Drew 7 Lost 1 For 5 Against 4
On the one hand it could be argued that Dickson has failed to find the net from the limited opportunities he has had. On the other, however, the results themselves show that, as a team, we have fared infinitely better when he has been on the pitch (scored 5 and let in 4 in 204 minutes) than when he hasn’t (scored just 3 but let in 18 in 800 minutes).
We have the worst away record of any team in the League. We have scored just 10 in 14 away games. Why? We’ve stuck with 4-5-1 all season and the only League game where it’s worked (in terms of a result) is Doncaster (though we did have Varney as well as Gray in the team). Even then, by all accounts, we were outclassed and if it wasn’t for their lack of finishing we would have lost there as well.
We’ve even played 4-5-1 at home and it hasn’t worked by virtue of the fact that we have given the initiative to the opposition. We have, effectively, invited them to attack us and all that happens is we end up giving away free kicks and corners from which we are most vulnerable. Moreover, we have no lead to cling onto and end up chasing the game. Though, from the stats above, we’ve not done too badly after we’ve made that change but the damage by then has already been done.
The solution has to be to revert to 4-4-2 and try and shoot out way out of trouble. Yes we might well get thumped in a few games by doing it but we might also get a few results from which some confidence would be gained.
As it is our death is a long lingering one.
Although the most damning stat of all remains the fact that the longest he has been given is 33 mins and the average time he has been allowed on the pitch is around 14-15 mins...
If we had Mendoca and Hunt banging them in, that might be fair enough. But in case anyone hadn't noticed (like those who stand on the touch-line with their arms folded and make these decisions), M & H both retired rather a long time ago...
Clearly he's been hoping that Burton, Gray, Waghorn plus any other strikers he can get in on loan will produce the goods but time is now rapidly running out for us all and certainly there is no room for one man's ego to become more important than the good of the Club overall. After all, we will all be here tomorrow but will Parky?
I think you're right here but the fact is PP was here under Pardew so must have seen that Gray hasn't been performing, must've seen that Waghorn isn't quite ready yet, must've seen that Todorov can't play more than 20 minutes, and if he had any knowledge of th division must've known that after 1 goal in about 20 games for Sheff Weds that Burton wasn't going to get goals to get us up the table. So you'd have thought he'd try something that Pardew didn't and give Dickson a game.
Either the management think Dickson's rubbish or he's got an attitude problem but if thats the case then why keep giving him sub appearances and loan McLeod out?
And from comments Uncle made he obviously isn't rubbish and he links up well with Shelvey in reserve games, so with us clearly having thrown every other dice available, why not throw it a last time and start the bloke. I can categorically 100% state that he can do no worse than the sh*t we see up front every week.
AG made a decent start, along with the team - four goals in the first six games, although two were pens.
But since scoring the winner at Doncaster on Sept 16, he's managed just two from open play. That's an average of one goal every two months.So we're due another one some time in March, by when we will be relegated,anyway... how Dicko or Izale can be any worse than that is surely a figment of Pardky's imagination shared by nobody else.
To be fair they did confirm that Dickson has rejected loan offers. He only wants to leave permanently (or get a chance here I guess). McLeod was probably happy to go and get some games.