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with/without ried (not to be read whilst holding sharp objects)

thinking about the thread on where we need to strengthen most, i know stats can be made to support arguments etc but this season;
with andy ried we played 23 won 11 drew 4 lost 8 getting 37 pts. put that over a season and it's 74 pts and play-off time.
without ried we've played 22 w 5 d 9 l 8 getting 24 pts. put that over the season and it's 48 pts (+ 2 games) and relegation fight.

i knew we missed him and i'm aware that injuries to other players haven't helped, but if we don't replace him and those stats prove to be the trend for next year................... :-(
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Comments

  • well done the board... take the money and run and rob us of ours as we watch dire football. 3-0 to BARNSLEY. dear me, a few years ago this club scored 4 at Highbury, 4 at home to Chelsea, not to mention wallopping West Ham 4-0 last spring.

    don't believe all this "injury prone", "he didn't fit into the team" bollocks, he was the captain, the best player at this club, the only player with an ounce of creativity - just look at his consistently high form for Sunderland now
  • [quote][cite]Posted By: paulbaconsarnie[/cite]thinking about the thread on where we need to strengthen most, i know stats can be made to support arguments etc but this season;
    with andy ried we played 23 won 11 drew 4 lost 8 getting 37 pts. put that over a season and it's 74 pts and play-off time.
    without ried we've played 22 w 5 d 9 l 8 getting 24 pts. put that over the season and it's 48 pts (+ 2 games) and relegation fight.

    i knew we missed him and i'm aware that injuries to other players haven't helped, but if we don't replace him and those stats prove to be the trend for next year................... :-([/quote]


    Do the stats you've quoted for when Reid was at the club include the matches he was injured for? ie how many did we win/lose/draw etc while he was injured? And do you think that correlation equals causation? Your statement may be correct for this particular set of data, but it may not necessarily be a universal truth. I suspect that you have discovered a linear regression equation and determined that your model was therefore a good fit without examining other variable criteria.

    In any case we couldn't really afford to keep him, Sunderland put a large contract in front of him that we could not afford. Well maybe we could have, but it would have meant paying an injury prone player an extra £16k a week, on top of his existing £8k, plus a hefty signing-on fee etc. A fair gamble if it comes off and we get into the play-offs and/or get promoted directly, but what if he broke down again? What would the reaction be then? Surely it would be categorised as another Pardew mistake for the nay-sayers to rake over?

    The fact is we would were a better team with Reid, but once he went it came down to how we spent the money and the fact is that recruiting Halford, Cook and then Lita on loan, and Gray permanently suggests in hindsight that the money wasn't wisely spent, at least this season, what was and is needed is a strong creative midfielder to replace Reid and we didn't get that. Meanwhile Gray might come good, but that is a question for next year.
  • [cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite]but it would have meant paying an injury prone player an extra £16k a week

    within 20 seconds!
  • BDLBDL
    edited April 2008
    FFS - Sunderland came in with a big money bid, we couldn't match it - Reid went. His choice not the clubs.
  • The club must have let him talk to Sunderland for them to offer him a contract. That being the case, the club had accepted the bid and the rest is just spin.
  • What do you expect them to do? Not tell him and piss him off for the rest of the season? Players rule the roost, we are in the championship - Reid would have wanted the chance to show his skills in the Prem.

    Harsh reality, but fact.
  • [quote][cite]Posted By: guinnessaddick[/cite]The club must have let him talk to Sunderland for them to offer him a contract. That being the case, the club had accepted the bid and the rest is just spin.[/quote]

    The club were well aware of what Sunderland were offering to both Reid and the club itself. Ultimately the £4m they paid represented a decent return on the money we paid a season before and we could never have matched the wages that Sunderland were offering. If we had we'd have had to have found approx £1.25m a year in wages, plus presumably Rrid would have signed a new contract - which in turn would have meant paying Reid a signing on fee - which is generally equal to a year's wages - so another £1.25m. Charlton gambled that they could use that money more effectively elsewhere. It didn't work.
  • [cite]Posted By: BDL[/cite]What do you expect them to do?

    if palace go up, colin comes knocking and says "jonjo, do you fancy trebling your wages and playing prem football. we always play our youngsters"
    is that acceptable?
  • edited April 2008
    Reid didn't want to go. The club sold him as a business decision. end of.
  • [quote][cite]Posted By: paulbaconsarnie[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: BDL[/cite]What do you expect them to do?[/quote]

    if palace go up, colin comes knocking and says "jonjo, do you fancy trebling your wages and playing prem football. we always play our youngsters"
    is that acceptable?[/quote]

    In this case I don't think he'll go, if he's as good as everyone thinks he'll be then he'll know that he's better off in the long-term playing regularly and learning his craft and looking for a big transfer in several years if Charlton don't get promoted. Charlton are not a bad team to do that at, our facilities are first class and I doubt he's being poorly paid, especially for a 16 yo, going to a Prem outfit now would be a big mistake. He's not good enough to play week-in/week-out - at a struggling club he'll get over-played and confidence will get hit, while at a good club he'll get sidelined when players with rather better track records come in and take his place in the team. Just look at what happened to Parker at Chelsea when he went chasing the money.

    Besides that clubs have far more power over players under the age of 21 than players over the age of 21 and Charlton won't sell him just yet. In a year or two with a few more games under his belt he'll be worth a lot more than whatever we get now.
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  • [quote][cite]Posted By: ISawLeaburnScore[/cite]Reid didn't want to go. The club sold him as a business decision. end of.[/quote]

    Then why did he go? Reportedly he asked if the club could match Sunderland's offer and the answer was no. So ultimately it was his choice.

    Again playing the what if game - say we did, there is still no guarantee that we would have been promoted this season and if so then next year we'd have had a player on our books receiving around £1.25m in wages every year. For a CCC side we couldn't have afforded that, the chances are that we'd be selling him in the close season and perhaps for less than Sunderland were offering, sometimes it's better to take the definite offer.
  • Reid was under to contract to Charlton if the club had wanted him to stay another 5 months and help us back up thats what should have been done.

    It was once again lack of ambition by our club. It's no coincedence that Watford also sold there best player in Marlonn King and they will be lucky to make the play offs.

    Im sorry our board were fantastic up until the last 3 years but since then mistake after mistake.
  • [cite]Posted By: paulbaconsarnie[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: BDL[/cite]What do you expect them to do?

    if palace go up, colin comes knocking and says "jonjo, do you fancy trebling your wages and playing prem football. we always play our youngsters"
    is that acceptable?

    Who knows? You cut your cloth to suit your circumstances - We are a Championship side, if a prem side comes knocking, what can we do?

    Like you I wanted Reid to stay, I want Jonjo to stay. I'm not stupid to deny our current position. Reality is sometimes harsh!
  • We took a risk buying an injury prone player for good money from Spurs, where his career had stalled and I don't recall any other Prem sides being interested in him.

    As it was he was absent in the last half of the relegation season, just when we needed him. I don't think anyone wanted him to go this January but I don't begrudge him going and if the officual reason for his transfer is legit then I understand why. Players get transferred all the time and at his age taking the extra money is not something that should be underestimated. With his injury record he might not enjoy a long career and needs to make money when he can.
  • Its basic economics people. If a premier league club comes in and offers to double what we're paying a player then its a no-brainer for the club - especially since our wage structure is one of the highest in the Chumpionship after seven years of paying ridiculous wages for players. And if anyone on here thinks Reid 'didn't want to go' they are living in cloud cuckoo land. I like my current job - but you can bet your arse if someone came along and said they were willing to double what i was earning and give me a guaranteed job over four years - even if I performed absolute dross over most of that period I'd be gone before you could say 'skilful but injury prone Irishman with a weight problem'
  • It was Reid's decision to go. He made it clear that he would stay, but ONLY if Charlton matched the salary offered by Sunderland. We were never going to be able to afford to do that. Pardew also decided the club would be better off letting him go & recommended this to the board. The board did nothing other than accept Pardew's recommendation.

    The big problem ocurred when Pardew wasted the opportunity to bring in some decent players in the transfer window. The purchase of Grey & all those loan signings were an unmitigated disaster. It wasn't Reid going that was our problem; it was our failure to adequately replace him.
  • edited April 2008
    [cite]Posted By: Leroy Ambrose[/cite]And if anyone on here thinks Reid 'didn't want to go' they are living in cloud cuckoo land.

    i'd rather live there than Barnsley that's for sure... hopefully you aren't subjected to Pardew's shite in cloud cuckoo land
  • [cite]Posted By: Red_Pete[/cite]It was Reid's decision to go. He made it clear that he would stay, but ONLY if Charlton matched the salary offered by Sunderland. We were never going to be able to afford to do that. Pardew also decided the club would be better off letting him go & recommended this to the board. The board did nothing other than accept Pardew's recommendation.

    The big problem ocurred when Pardew wasted the opportunity to bring in some decent players in the transfer window. The purchase of Grey & all those loan signings were an unmitigated disaster. It wasn't Reid going that was our problem; it was our failure to adequately replace him.
    Agree with most of that, though the fact that there weren't actually that many decent players available that could have filled Reid's shoes would have made it difficult to get anyone in the transfer window (which, by the way, always has and always will be a ****ing stupid idea). He has brought some dross in on loan though - wouldn't have kept any of them with the possible exception of Cook.
  • [cite]Posted By: ISawLeaburnScore[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: Leroy Ambrose[/cite]And if anyone on here thinks Reid 'didn't want to go' they are living in cloud cuckoo land.

    i'd rather live there than Barnsley that's for sure... hopefully you aren't subjected to Pardew's shite in cloud cuckoo land
    Personally, I'd rather we sit on a sound financial footing for the future by trying to offset the absolutely enormous losses we will undoubtedly make if we don't get promoted next season. I look at what Ridsdale did to Leeds (admittedly with the full backing of the board) and it scares me - similar things happened at Southampton and Leicester in recent years - would you want to swap places with them?
  • edited April 2008
    no thanks Leroy

    it's a shame we are so prudent with who we sell and for a "good price" that we don't give a toss how much we actually pay for incoming players. 2mil+ for Andy Gray. 2.5M for Bougherra. 1.5M for McLeod. 38 players' wages. who really is in cloud cuckoo land? how many other Championship clubs do you see carting in £2million players left right and centre?

    i'm sorry Leroy but i'm a bit wary of them throwing money around like there's no tomorrow, largely on crap, and then protesting to me that selling is the only option for a stable financial future

    don't waste the money in the first place!
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  • [cite]Posted By: Red_Pete[/cite] It wasn't Reid going that was our problem; it was our failure to adequately replace him.

    that is what i was getting at with my 1st post.
    i have yet to see shelvey play (plastic), but hopefully he will help to fill the gap left by reid departure.
  • [cite]Posted By: ISawLeaburnScore[/cite]no thanks Leroy

    it's a shame we are so prudent with who we sell and for a "good price" that we don't give a toss how much we actually pay for incoming players. 2mil+ for Andy Gray. 2.5M for Bougherra. 1.5M for McLeod. 38 players' wages. who really is in cloud cuckoo land?
    You know what? A couple of years ago I'd have been rowing with you by now and it would have got spiteful - double spiteful. Now I just can't be arsed. The money we pay for players is market rate. We don't get mugged off. We paid what everyone else was looking at paying for McLeod and he didn't pan out. We paid what I would consider market rate for Bougherra (the best centre half in the championship the season and a half before we bought him). The possible exc eption to this is Gray, who was overpriced and a panic buy - but he's scored more goals in the championship than almost any other player over the past three seasons. For a team that is in the championship to buy players that have performed well in the league is not bad business.
  • [quote][cite]Posted By: ISawLeaburnScore[/cite]no thanks Leroy

    it's a shame we are so prudent with who we sell and for a "good price" that we don't give a toss how much we actually pay for incoming players. 2mil+ for Andy Gray. 2.5M for Bougherra. 1.5M for McLeod. 38 players' wages. who really is in cloud cuckoo land?[/quote]


    No one denies that mistakes have been made, and we need to look at some of those players over the long-term. I was talking to a Burnley fan mid-week, he thought that £2m for Gray was a bit a over the top but not by much and he rates him as a 15-20 goals a season striker at this level. If he does that next year then £2m will look a bargain, more so if it helps us to promotion.

    Weaver came on a free, Semedo/Mou2 were cheap, Varney and McLeod haven't yet justified their price tags and Bougherra has been injury prone, which demonstrates the wisdom of sometimes selling on players who might miss a chunk of the season if the offer is right.

    Fundamentally the problem has been that Pardew and Charlton have had a collectively poor year. What I want besides a strong creative midfielder is to find one or two characters who the team can gel around and who will provide leadership on and off the pitch.
  • [cite]Posted By: Leroy Ambrose[/cite]You know what? A couple of years ago I'd have been rowing with you by now and it would have got spiteful - double spiteful. Now I just can't be arsed.

    why? we're having a difference in opinion. why would it be spiteful? seems a strange thing to say... i think with your cuckoo land comment you were the first to personalise anything.
    [cite]Posted By: Leroy Ambrose[/cite]We don't get mugged off

    i'm afraid that's exactly the way I feel, not least after the gutless lying down yesterday. painful.
  • [cite]Posted By: ISawLeaburnScore[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: Leroy Ambrose[/cite]You know what? A couple of years ago I'd have been rowing with you by now and it would have got spiteful - double spiteful. Now I just can't be arsed.

    why? we're having a difference in opinion. why would it be spiteful? seems a strange thing to say... i think with your cuckoo land comment you were the first to personalise anything.
    LOL - you obviously haven't seen anything of Ricky Grover. It was a joke man - chill out for ****s sake! If you go back and read my original post you'll see I said 'ANYONE living in cloud cuckoo land'. I can't think of any way you could construe that as me 'personalising' anything with you.
  • perfectly chilled... just wondering what you're going on about! crossed wires
  • people want it both way, we spend then you get the moans of 'mugged off' and then if it's the other way we're buying cheap and not good enough.

    On Reid,he took the money, all his spinning to friends that he didn't want to go is bs, he tripled his money, and got a fat signing on fee.
  • edited April 2008
    .
  • Our league position at the time we sold Reid belied our true status, we were still struggling to score goals when he was in the team and we were still rotten at the back. I never thought his sale was a bad thing for the team however the timing didn't help, I think if he had been sold a week earlier, than on deadline day, then Pardew could perhaps have found better replacements.
  • have not read all above but he did want to saty and asked if we would match the wage club said they could not

    surely offloading a few of teh watsers would have helped and im sure there must be a bit of Darren Bents money around
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