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Sale of Charlton - (or more accurately, lack of Sale of Charlton)

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Comments

  • edited September 20

    For any buyer of us - surely they can see the potential of the club.
    Getting to the PL would be the obvious pull but maxing out on Corporate would add to the Income.
    We are a little'sleeping giant'

    Except for a couple recently promoted minnows, the majority of season tickets in the PL are about £600-2000 for the best seats and mostly £300-800 for the cheapest, now. Are Addicks prepared for that? I somehow don't think so. Tickets are so much more expensive than the last time CAFC were in the PL. Look at the lowest priced clubs and for the most part, where are they in the table?
    image

    Also, we would have one of the smaller stadiums. Combine the two, our match day revenue would be among the lowest in the PL.
    https://worldfootball.net/attendance/eng-premier-league-2017-2018/1/

    Which means we would struggle to stay in it. Clubs with low gate receipts typically go down sooner rather than later, which is why Palace and other clubs are desperate to increase their capacity and if necessary, attract a different kind of crowd. The ability to get 35,000+ for every match and charge tourist prices for many of them is not a luxury anymore, it's required.

    This is why that although I agree there is big potential here, what we really need to reach that potential (and keep it) in my opinion is an owner willing to spend £150-250M like Tony Bloom did on Brighton.

    Getting out of the Championship now requires clubs to lose the max allowable each year and often more the last year. If it were to take even just 4 years, that's £50M. If it takes seven, that's £90M. Unlike L1, the Championship has 3 new clubs every year getting parachute payments that are twice more than CAFC's entire turnover would be in that division. And often 4-8 clubs at any one time getting some form of parachutes. It's hell to get out of the Championship. Wolves lost £50-60M just the last two seasons to get out, breaching rules. Some think that is now the only way to get out, as there will always be a few clubs each year willing to role the dice. How to compete?

    The Valley by all accounts needs upgrades. Getting approvals, plans, plans approved, construction, cost overruns, etc.... at least another £75M over a decade and maybe£100M. Everton decided it would cost less per seat to just build a new stadium than re-develop Goodison due to proximity of houses and streets and the difficulty of approving one stand change at a time, plus the lost revenue each year a stand is under construction, which cannot be tolerated.

    Palace are renovating theirs. Arsenal have a newer one. Chelsea has approval for one. Shahid Khan is going to buy Wembley and yeah, he is eventually going to be tempted to move there. Palace is getting £100M to re-develop Selhurst and you just know the real price will be £150M+ by the end. West Ham now get attendances of 56,000 now, even in a crap stadium. You may all love the Valley, but it is not going to cut the mustard in the PL, as is.

    The training ground facilities themselves are not quality PL level, even if the pitches are. The proposed new building is at best "okay" for the PL and it is not under construction yet. Even MLS teams have facilities now that dwarf those of CAFC. Wolves spent £55M to get theirs to Category One and that was a few years ago. I think we need another £30M+ to get it to a level that will attract international talent. We won't survive in the PL without such an ability.

    So...... if we don't get an owner who can spend this kind of money without cringing, I think we have very long, hard road ahead. As in a generation or more. More smaller clubs will get sold to rich owners in that period who won't bat an eyelash at spending what is necessary to get to the PL.

    This is what worries me about the Aussies now. They seem scared by the £15M gap between their offer and Roland's wishes. If they can't deal with that, then how will they deal with the inevitable costs to get us to the PL? And even more... to stay there more than 1-2 seasons?



  • Next tour of the Valley is due with the Venkys being shown around ;)
  • Not that I particularly want Fawaz but he isn't as bad as Roland, don't care what any Forest fan says. We aren't in control at the end of the day and it is definitely the devil I don't know for me.

    Yea at least he watched Forest games week in week out! How many has Roland been too?? One isn't it
  • edited September 20
    uie2 said:

    Not that I particularly want Fawaz but he isn't as bad as Roland, don't care what any Forest fan says. We aren't in control at the end of the day and it is definitely the devil I don't know for me.

    Yea at least he watched Forest games week in week out! How many has Roland been too?? One isn't it
    How many matches does Sheik Mansour attend? How many times does ManU's owner fly in from the US?

    I don't care if the owner EVER attends. I care about if they have ambition and the money to make the vision happen and the drive to put the pieces in place for long term success.

    Fawaz fails on those fronts. Yes, RD might be worse, but Fawaz is not the answer and we need to not settle for him.
  • The last six pages of this thread got me power-scrolling again, only stopping for big likes on posts.
    Where do you boys find the time!?
  • edited September 20
    uie2 said:

    Next tour of the Valley is due with the Venkys being shown around ;)

    They wouldn't dare. They're too chicken
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  • uie2 said:

    Not that I particularly want Fawaz but he isn't as bad as Roland, don't care what any Forest fan says. We aren't in control at the end of the day and it is definitely the devil I don't know for me.

    Yea at least he watched Forest games week in week out! How many has Roland been too?? One isn't it
    How many matches does Sheik Mansour attend? How many times does ManU's owner fly in from the US?

    I don't care if the owner EVER attends. I care about if they have ambition and the money to make the vision happen and the drive to put the pieces in place for long term success.

    Fawaz fails on those fronts. Yes, RD might be worse, but Fawaz is not the answer and we need to not settle for him.
    The Man. City owners have copied Roland's model of running clubs. He said so in his interview.

    I wonder if they asked for his advice ?


  • uie2 said:

    Not that I particularly want Fawaz but he isn't as bad as Roland, don't care what any Forest fan says. We aren't in control at the end of the day and it is definitely the devil I don't know for me.

    Yea at least he watched Forest games week in week out! How many has Roland been too?? One isn't it
    How many matches does Sheik Mansour attend? How many times does ManU's owner fly in from the US?

    I don't care if the owner EVER attends. I care about if they have ambition and the money to make the vision happen and the drive to put the pieces in place for long term success.

    Fawaz fails on those fronts. Yes, RD might be worse, but Fawaz is not the answer and we need to not settle for him.
    The Man. City owners have copied Roland's model of running clubs. He said so in his interview.

    With one exception

  • Thanks for the feedback

    I’m pretty certain that if I was a fan of the club and wanted to take us to the next level I would pretty much let everyone in for nothing

    £3.2m is great, potentially 25,000 crowds supporting the team is better

    Obviously i am at the wider end of the mark both sides but surely any Saudi/Rich person would just try to fill the ground in the first instance
  • Thanks for the feedback

    I’m pretty certain that if I was a fan of the club and wanted to take us to the next level I would pretty much let everyone in for nothing

    £3.2m is great, potentially 25,000 crowds supporting the team is better

    Obviously i am at the wider end of the mark both sides but surely any Saudi/Rich person would just try to fill the ground in the first instance

    You wouldn’t get 25,000 every week if it was free right now. A change of ownership will help but we have a lot of ground to recover.
    Ain’t that the truth.
  • For any buyer of us - surely they can see the potential of the club.
    Getting to the PL would be the obvious pull but maxing out on Corporate would add to the Income.
    We are a little'sleeping giant'

    Except for a couple recently promoted minnows, the majority of season tickets in the PL are about £600-2000 for the best seats and mostly £300-800 for the cheapest, now. Are Addicks prepared for that? I somehow don't think so. Tickets are so much more expensive than the last time CAFC were in the PL. Look at the lowest priced clubs and for the most part, where are they in the table?
    image

    Also, we would have one of the smaller stadiums. Combine the two, our match day revenue would be among the lowest in the PL.
    https://worldfootball.net/attendance/eng-premier-league-2017-2018/1/

    Which means we would struggle to stay in it. Clubs with low gate receipts typically go down sooner rather than later, which is why Palace and other clubs are desperate to increase their capacity and if necessary, attract a different kind of crowd. The ability to get 35,000+ for every match and charge tourist prices for many of them is not a luxury anymore, it's required.

    This is why that although I agree there is big potential here, what we really need to reach that potential (and keep it) in my opinion is an owner willing to spend £150-250M like Tony Bloom did on Brighton.

    Getting out of the Championship now requires clubs to lose the max allowable each year and often more the last year. If it were to take even just 4 years, that's £50M. If it takes seven, that's £90M. Unlike L1, the Championship has 3 new clubs every year getting parachute payments that are twice more than CAFC's entire turnover would be in that division. And often 4-8 clubs at any one time getting some form of parachutes. It's hell to get out of the Championship. Wolves lost £50-60M just the last two seasons to get out, breaching rules. Some think that is now the only way to get out, as there will always be a few clubs each year willing to role the dice. How to compete?

    The Valley by all accounts needs upgrades. Getting approvals, plans, plans approved, construction, cost overruns, etc.... at least another £75M over a decade and maybe£100M. Everton decided it would cost less per seat to just build a new stadium than re-develop Goodison due to proximity of houses and streets and the difficulty of approving one stand change at a time, plus the lost revenue each year a stand is under construction, which cannot be tolerated.

    Palace are renovating theirs. Arsenal have a newer one. Chelsea has approval for one. Shahid Khan is going to buy Wembley and yeah, he is eventually going to be tempted to move there. Palace is getting £100M to re-develop Selhurst and you just know the real price will be £150M+ by the end. West Ham now get attendances of 56,000 now, even in a crap stadium. You may all love the Valley, but it is not going to cut the mustard in the PL, as is.

    The training ground facilities themselves are not quality PL level, even if the pitches are. The proposed new building is at best "okay" for the PL and it is not under construction yet. Even MLS teams have facilities now that dwarf those of CAFC. Wolves spent £55M to get theirs to Category One and that was a few years ago. I think we need another £30M+ to get it to a level that will attract international talent. We won't survive in the PL without such an ability.

    So...... if we don't get an owner who can spend this kind of money without cringing, I think we have very long, hard road ahead. As in a generation or more. More smaller clubs will get sold to rich owners in that period who won't bat an eyelash at spending what is necessary to get to the PL.

    This is what worries me about the Aussies now. They seem scared by the £15M gap between their offer and Roland's wishes. If they can't deal with that, then how will they deal with the inevitable costs to get us to the PL? And even more... to stay there more than 1-2 seasons?



    Christ that is depressing, we really shit the bed didn't we.

    Based on that we can only sell to a platinum club member, billionaire, prepared to throw money at it.

    And there are many clubs far more attractive than us in our current state.

    Bad times.

  • Page 1300 looms and it only seems like yesterday (in best Year 2000 worry mode) that page 1000 would break CL....
  • I’m not going to quote the long posts above about how we’re doomed if we make it to the PL and don’t have mega rich owners. Season tickets don’t have to go up to eye watering levels. They can stay at a reasonable price to fill the bulk of the ground and thereby reduce the number available on a casual match basis. Those tickets can be sold at a premium if the match warrants it (Man Utd, Arsenal Chelsea etc) otherwise it’s the tv and other ancillary income that is what the club would survive and thrive on
  • Why am I getting a Zabeel ad on this thread?
  • I’m not going to quote the long posts above about how we’re doomed if we make it to the PL and don’t have mega rich owners. Season tickets don’t have to go up to eye watering levels. They can stay at a reasonable price to fill the bulk of the ground and thereby reduce the number available on a casual match basis. Those tickets can be sold at a premium if the match warrants it (Man Utd, Arsenal Chelsea etc) otherwise it’s the tv and other ancillary income that is what the club would survive and thrive on

    I agree.

    But to be honest I prefer us to be in the Championship. I also think it is a much better product than it is treated as.

    My 16 yr old finds the Prem a bit boring and is very selective in the games he will watch. Always watches the games from the Championship though as he says they are more competitive. Also interesting is that when he and his mates play FIFA they set up as clubs from lower leagues. (It is why he has an affinity with Burnley, and because Deeney was so successful for him, Watford. Wanted his name on his Charlton top ffs).

    Now more live games are being shown it will be interesting to see if the audience will grow.
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  • Croydon said:

    Redrobo said:

    I’m not going to quote the long posts above about how we’re doomed if we make it to the PL and don’t have mega rich owners. Season tickets don’t have to go up to eye watering levels. They can stay at a reasonable price to fill the bulk of the ground and thereby reduce the number available on a casual match basis. Those tickets can be sold at a premium if the match warrants it (Man Utd, Arsenal Chelsea etc) otherwise it’s the tv and other ancillary income that is what the club would survive and thrive on

    I agree.

    But to be honest I prefer us to be in the Championship. I also think it is a much better product than it is treated as.

    My 16 yr old finds the Prem a bit boring and is very selective in the games he will watch. Always watches the games from the Championship though as he says they are more competitive. Also interesting is that when he and his mates play FIFA they set up as clubs from lower leagues. (It is why he has an affinity with Burnley, and because Deeney was so successful for him, Watford. Wanted his name on his Charlton top ffs).

    Now more live games are being shown it will be interesting to see if the audience will grow.
    Fuck the Premiership. That league and Sky are everything wrong with modern football. The Championship is competitive, has some big, historic names and you won't have 7+ games a season moved to Sunday at midday just so some armchair Bournemouth fan can watch his team play on the telly.
    Oil agree.

    Oh but the armchair fan from Bournemouth supports Man.U.
  • I’m not going to quote the long posts above about how we’re doomed if we make it to the PL and don’t have mega rich owners. Season tickets don’t have to go up to eye watering levels. They can stay at a reasonable price to fill the bulk of the ground and thereby reduce the number available on a casual match basis. Those tickets can be sold at a premium if the match warrants it (Man Utd, Arsenal Chelsea etc) otherwise it’s the tv and other ancillary income that is what the club would survive and thrive on

    Completely agree. The TV money dominates so much that according to this article on the BBC website. 11 of the 20 PL teams in 2016/2017 could have made a profit without selling a single ticket! So they could sell S/Ts at a reasonable price - but, of course, they don't as many of them have a waiting list. To me, and most I would think, seeing the team you support live will always be better than the TV, so they will never be short of people willing to pay. Seems a rip-off of their fans when some (like Arsenal) charge excessive prices though.
  • Croydon said:

    Redrobo said:

    I’m not going to quote the long posts above about how we’re doomed if we make it to the PL and don’t have mega rich owners. Season tickets don’t have to go up to eye watering levels. They can stay at a reasonable price to fill the bulk of the ground and thereby reduce the number available on a casual match basis. Those tickets can be sold at a premium if the match warrants it (Man Utd, Arsenal Chelsea etc) otherwise it’s the tv and other ancillary income that is what the club would survive and thrive on

    I agree.

    But to be honest I prefer us to be in the Championship. I also think it is a much better product than it is treated as.

    My 16 yr old finds the Prem a bit boring and is very selective in the games he will watch. Always watches the games from the Championship though as he says they are more competitive. Also interesting is that when he and his mates play FIFA they set up as clubs from lower leagues. (It is why he has an affinity with Burnley, and because Deeney was so successful for him, Watford. Wanted his name on his Charlton top ffs).

    Now more live games are being shown it will be interesting to see if the audience will grow.
    Fuck the Premiership. That league and Sky are everything wrong with modern football. The Championship is competitive, has some big, historic names and you won't have 7+ games a season moved to Sunday at midday just so some armchair Bournemouth fan can watch his team play on the telly.
    ........unless you're a Leeds fan
  • Croydon said:

    Redrobo said:

    I’m not going to quote the long posts above about how we’re doomed if we make it to the PL and don’t have mega rich owners. Season tickets don’t have to go up to eye watering levels. They can stay at a reasonable price to fill the bulk of the ground and thereby reduce the number available on a casual match basis. Those tickets can be sold at a premium if the match warrants it (Man Utd, Arsenal Chelsea etc) otherwise it’s the tv and other ancillary income that is what the club would survive and thrive on

    I agree.

    But to be honest I prefer us to be in the Championship. I also think it is a much better product than it is treated as.

    My 16 yr old finds the Prem a bit boring and is very selective in the games he will watch. Always watches the games from the Championship though as he says they are more competitive. Also interesting is that when he and his mates play FIFA they set up as clubs from lower leagues. (It is why he has an affinity with Burnley, and because Deeney was so successful for him, Watford. Wanted his name on his Charlton top ffs).

    Now more live games are being shown it will be interesting to see if the audience will grow.
    Fuck the Premiership. That league and Sky are everything wrong with modern football. The Championship is competitive, has some big, historic names and you won't have 7+ games a season moved to Sunday at midday just so some armchair Bournemouth fan can watch his team play on the telly.
    Problem is. Until everyone realises that the Premier League is killing football outside of its little club nothing will change. The finances are completely insane but again until something changes the only place to be is in the Premier League. I detest it with a passion.

  • Best thing about the Championship is a different team wins it each year. Probably the biggest football competition in the World where that’s the case.

    It's the biggest prize in sport you can't defend. Maybe the Derby or similar?
  • Um, so yeah, any takeover news?
    Anyone?
    Anyone?
  • Fumbluff said:

    Um, so yeah, any takeover news?
    Anyone?
    Anyone?

    Jimmy Seed blog has a different take on things.

    Won't link it as don't want to upset those who don't want to read it
  • <
    Also, we would have one of the smaller stadiums. Combine the two, our match day revenue would be among the lowest in the PL.
    https://worldfootball.net/attendance/eng-premier-league-2017-2018/1/

    Which means we would struggle to stay in it. Clubs with low gate receipts typically go down sooner rather than later, which is why Palace and other clubs are desperate to increase their capacity and if necessary, attract a different kind of crowd. The ability to get 35,000+ for every match and charge tourist prices for many of them is not a luxury anymore, it's required.

    There is more than one way to skin a cat. Bournemouth have a much lower capacity then Charlton and all teams outside the top six or eight can be relegated. Sunderland, Newcastle, Villa all have 40k or 50K capacities but went down. Gate reciepts are becoming LESS important as TV money is a far larger proportion of income for all premier league clubs.

    This is why that although I agree there is big potential here, what we really need to reach that potential (and keep it) in my opinion is an owner willing to spend £150-250M like Tony Bloom did on Brighton.

    Brighton had to build a whole new stadium, we don't.

    Getting out of the Championship now requires clubs to lose the max allowable each year and often more the last year. If it were to take even just 4 years, that's £50M. If it takes seven, that's £90M. Unlike L1, the Championship has 3 new clubs every year getting parachute payments that are twice more than CAFC's entire turnover would be in that division. And often 4-8 clubs at any one time getting some form of parachutes. It's hell to get out of the Championship. Wolves lost £50-60M just the last two seasons to get out, breaching rules. Some think that is now the only way to get out, as there will always be a few clubs each year willing to role the dice. How to compete?

    Agree that getting out of the Championship is getting harder and harder but relegated clubs often have large overheads and don't always go back up (Sunderland and Villa again) and we are seeing "new" teams like Brighton, Wolves, Fulham breaking into the EPL, albeit spending money.

    The Valley by all accounts needs upgrades.

    Arguable. It would benefit from a clean and a lick of paint but it can cope with Premier League football. The South Stand Jimmy Seed stand really does warrant a rebuild but I dispute the Valley as a whole NEEDS an upgrade.

    Getting approvals, plans, plans approved, construction, cost overruns, etc.... at least another £75M over a decade and maybe£100M.

    Not sure where you are getting £75m to £100m from. £15m to £20m when the board looked at it when we were last in the prem. Yes, prices have increased since then but not that much.

    Everton decided it would cost less per seat to just build a new stadium than re-develop Goodison due to proximity of houses and streets and the difficulty of approving one stand change at a time, plus the lost revenue each year a stand is under construction, which cannot be tolerated.

    That is true but Goodison is not the Valley. The arguement you are making there, and it makes sense, is to build a new stadium and leave the Valley but I doubt you'll get much support although it is, in business terms maybe the logical move for Everton. But land in Liverpool is much cheaper than in inner London.

    Palace are renovating theirs. Haven't started work Arsenal have a newer one. Built before the Chelsea and Man City money pushed Arsenal out of the top two Chelsea has approval for one. Plans for which have been shelved Shahid Khan is going to buy Wembley and yeah, he is eventually going to be tempted to move there. Is he? big big assumption Palace is getting £100M to re-develop Selhurst and you just know the real price will be £150M+ by the end. More assumptions West Ham now get attendances of 56,000 now, even in a crap stadium. Which is hated by their fans You may all love the Valley, but it is not going to cut the mustard in the PL, as is. Says who? We don't have to compete on stadium size as Bournemouth and Fulham prove. And some would rather stay at the Valley, even if that was true, which I don't think it is.

    The training ground facilities themselves are not quality PL level, even if the pitches are. The proposed new building is at best "okay" for the PL and it is not under construction yet. True but we have planning permission. They will be more than OK for the premier league, not that they have to be. They have to be up to standard for a Cat 1 academy which, if they are ever built, they will be.


    Even MLS teams have facilities now that dwarf those of CAFC. So what? We don't play in the MLS, MLB or NFL.

    Wolves spent £55M to get theirs to Category One and that was a few years ago. I think we need another £30M+ to get it to a level that will attract international talent. Sorry, but you are just picking numbers out of the air now. We won't survive in the PL without such an ability. But we can attract international talent with wages. Training grounds and stadiums are important but international players go to Burnley or Stoke so they will can come to SE London if and when we can offer premier league wages and football.

    So...... if we don't get an owner who can spend this kind of money without cringing, I think we have very long, hard road ahead. As in a generation or more. More smaller clubs will get sold to rich owners in that period who won't bat an eyelash at spending what is necessary to get to the PL. Yes, we need a rich owner but then again we already have one and he's spent over £100m (he recouped some on player sales) He also spent it very badly.

    This is what worries me about the Aussies now. They seem scared by the £15M gap between their offer and Roland's wishes. Who said they are scared? Seems that you can spin it that way or they would rather spend the money on the training ground or on players which makes good sense to me. Why pay more than they think the club is worth? If they can't deal with that, then how will they deal with the inevitable costs to get us to the PL? And even more... to stay there more than 1-2 seasons? Right now one or two seasons in the prem is looking a lot better than a third year in division three

    We don't know about the Aussie, we haven't heard their plans or seen their money. We may never do but Steve Gallen for one thought that he'd have a much better budget if they had bought us in the summer.

    Our history tells us Charlton do things the Charlton way, not always the way other clubs do. Seed, Lawrence, Curbishley all built teams on relatively small budgets and maybe it will be that way again. Personally I'd rather have a mega rich owner who spends our way to success but I haven't found one yet so maybe we'll do it our way again.


    WIOTOS

    LLLBH

    UTA







    Agree. TV money is the controlling factor. I'm sure I read recently that certain clubs could survive in the Prem. even if no one came to watch them as it's the money generated by TV that counts.
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Roland Out!